Appalled with Vista

[gerwen]

It's too bad your first experience with Vista was so poor. Following the thread though, i don't think the issue was really with Vista itself. Like one poster said, you caught a lemon. It's not like a new XP box from Dell is immune to similar troubles, especially if you look back to the year after XP's release. It happens.

Don't let your first bad experience colour your view of Vista. Give it a try in a situation you have control over and then make your decision.

If you can score a copy of the media, you can install it without a product key and it will run for 30 days, plenty of time to give it a thorough going over. It's what i'm doing now, and although a little skeptical at first, I'm pretty sure I'll be shelling out for my copy pretty soon, rather than going back to XP and waiting out the launch troubles.

*edit* - i hope the above paragraph doesn't get me into trouble here. I don't really view what i'm doing as piracy in the slightest. I'm not circumventing any copy protection, and don't intend to once the trial period is up. I truly believe Microsoft has allowed this on purpose, to hook people like me into trying out the new OS. --> The first taste is always free.

 

[tribbles]

Don't worry, gerwen. I'll get over my wrestling match with Vista and live to try it another day. Hopefully on a homebuild, and not a Dell. ;-)

I just don't know about the client. His business switched away from Windows for the most part due to licensing issues. In this particular case, they went ahead and ordered a Dell because (a) the shop manager doesn't know OS X or Linux and (b) because UPS Worldship only works on Windows. After all the complaints I've been hearing about their new computer, there is no doubt the OS is going to get wiped and reinstalled. But they're asking me to put Windows XP on it. I'm not sure I'm even going to try to convince them to give Vista another go. Any downtime for them is lost money.

Good to hear that some people are having a trouble-free Vista experience. I would hazard a guess, though, that virtually none of them are using OEM boxes.

 

[hardcandy2]

"The trouble with tribbles", I just wanted to write that, beam me up.

 

[miniMUNCH]

OP: First off... trying to run Vista on an AMD Dell was your first mistake... the chipset driver support sucks balls. This is not Vista's fault.

If your client didn't want to run Vista business, or better, you should've opted for XP SP2 in the first place.

I am running the following system on Vista Ult. 64 with absolutely zero problems:

E4300 OC'ed to 1066 FSB
2 GB mem
Asus P5B deluxe (intel 965 chipset)
8800 GTS

Aside from a few little bugs (Texas hold'em poker has flickering text) I have experienced exactly zero problems.

I home system is much, much faster than my XP system at school which is 3Hz dual core pentium 4 system with 2 GB of ram. It is not an apples to apples comparison on the hardware, but even so... for me, Vista gets the nod.

 

[tribbles]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
OP: First off... trying to run Vista on an AMD Dell was your first mistake... the chipset driver support sucks balls. This is not Vista's fault.

If your client didn't want to run Vista business, or better, you should've opted for XP SP2 in the first place.

I am running the following system on Vista Ult. 64 with absolutely zero problems:

E4300 OC'ed to 1066 FSB
2 GB mem
Asus P5B deluxe (intel 965 chipset)
8800 GTS

Aside from a few little bugs (Texas hold'em poker has flickering text) I have experienced exactly zero problems.

I home system is much, much faster than my XP system at school which is 3Hz dual core pentium 4 system with 2 GB of ram. It is not an apples to apples comparison on the hardware, but even so... for me, Vista gets the nod.

Unfortunately, I was not involved in the ordering process. If I had been, I probably would have recommended a Core 2 Duo.

Your experience makes me feel a little better about trying out Vista Ultimate on my Mac Pro.

 

[Genx87]

I got in my first Vista Dell laptop a couple of days ago. I havent had any issues with it do far. I stacked it with a dual core + 2GB of ram. It seems to be working fine so far.

 

[nweaver]

If UPS Worldwide doesn't work on anything but windows (I don't know, I have never tried it) then I would
1. Send a mail complaining to UPS....They don't know to redo their site to make it non IE friendly unless folks tell them
2. VMWare XP Pro for that occasional page. I've only used UPS's web page for looking up tracking numbers, but it was fine on FF2.0 on Ubuntu Edgy

 

[Lepard]

I am using a Dell XPS 410 with 1GB mem, a 7900GT, Audigy 1 and 2 SATA HDDs. My Visa Ultimate computing experience has been great all around. I can play my games, I notice ReadyBoost does actually work, etc... overall a great computing experience. The only driver issue I am having is the Lexmark 5150, which is supposed to get drivers in a week or two.

I am also using it on my Toshiba Laptop. It has a Celeron M 1.5Ghz, 1GB memory (128MB for Radeon 200m), running Aero. For its purpose, school computer, it runs wonderfully. Toshiba also released a new BIOS for Vista "compatibilitY as well as drivers for this laptop for every component, surprisingly.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

The thing that is killing your system is the intergrated graphics. The key to making Vista run better is using the Aero UI which requires a decent video card.
I have a Dell gx280 with a P4 2.8 and a Gig of RAM and XP ran fast on it, I put Vista on it and it runs like total crap because of the integrated video.

 

[GregGreen]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
The thing that is killing your system is the intergrated graphics. The key to making Vista run better is using the Aero UI which requires a decent video card.
I have a Dell gx280 with a P4 2.8 and a Gig of RAM and XP ran fast on it, I put Vista on it and it runs like total crap because of the integrated video.

It may be the drivers, but it is not the IGP being underpowered -- the box is running Home Basic, which does not have Aero....

 

[Matthias99]

because UPS Worldship only works on Windows

Originally posted by: nweaver
If UPS Worldwide doesn't work on anything but windows (I don't know, I have never tried it) then I would
1. Send a mail complaining to UPS....They don't know to redo their site to make it non IE friendly unless folks tell them
2. VMWare XP Pro for that occasional page. I've only used UPS's web page for looking up tracking numbers, but it was fine on FF2.0 on Ubuntu Edgy

UPS Worldship != UPS website. It's a downloadable application for tracking and submitting shipping requests.

The app doesn't seem to (officially) support Vista yet, so if they're running Windows in part to support it, running Vista seems like a bad idea in general.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: nweaver
If you haven't had a linux box at home for a while, check out the ease of Ubuntu + Nvidia card + Beryl. Very nice Eyecandy. Make sure you get one with lots of memory, my GForce4 TI 4200 runs out of onboard memory and then has the "black" screen.

k, not trying to troll here but this caught my attention.

If a Windows product ran out of onboard video memory and caused a "black" screen this board would be full of people shaking with rage bitching at MS. Why can non-MS OSs get away with this?

 

[Nothinman]

If a Windows product ran out of onboard video memory and caused a "black" screen this board would be full of people shaking with rage bitching at MS. Why can non-MS OSs get away with this?

Why not ask the XGL/AIGLX people? The requirements for using either of them is much lower than that of Aero.

 

[nweaver]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: nweaver
If you haven't had a linux box at home for a while, check out the ease of Ubuntu + Nvidia card + Beryl. Very nice Eyecandy. Make sure you get one with lots of memory, my GForce4 TI 4200 runs out of onboard memory and then has the "black" screen.

k, not trying to troll here but this caught my attention.

If a Windows product ran out of onboard video memory and caused a "black" screen this board would be full of people shaking with rage bitching at MS. Why can non-MS OSs get away with this?

I don't blame XGL/AIGLX/Linux/Ubuntu...I blame NVIDIA, this is a bug in their drivers...they just won't fix it. The bigges problem is that on some older hardware, I am runing dual 1280x1024 screens, with 4 virtual desktops, and lots of open applications (mail, 2 different browser windows with multiple tabs per window, VMWare Server Console, GAIM, Beep, couple of terminals, etc)

Still beats vista imho, because I can't even turn Aero ON with that H/W. If NVIDIA ever fixes their driver, I would be fine. As it is, when this happens I can either minimize all the windows and then deal with a few windows at a time (rest minimized) or restart X (which is MUCH easier then in Windows, because you can't JUST restart X...this means my services still run, my VMWare machines don't have to shut down, etc)

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: nweaver

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: nweaver
If you haven't had a linux box at home for a while, check out the ease of Ubuntu + Nvidia card + Beryl. Very nice Eyecandy. Make sure you get one with lots of memory, my GForce4 TI 4200 runs out of onboard memory and then has the "black" screen.

k, not trying to troll here but this caught my attention.

If a Windows product ran out of onboard video memory and caused a "black" screen this board would be full of people shaking with rage bitching at MS. Why can non-MS OSs get away with this?

I don't blame XGL/AIGLX/Linux/Ubuntu...I blame NVIDIA, this is a bug in their drivers...they just won't fix it. The bigges problem is that on some older hardware, I am runing dual 1280x1024 screens, with 4 virtual desktops, and lots of open applications (mail, 2 different browser windows with multiple tabs per window, VMWare Server Console, GAIM, Beep, couple of terminals, etc)

Still beats vista imho, because I can't even turn Aero ON with that H/W. If NVIDIA ever fixes their driver, I would be fine. As it is, when this happens I can either minimize all the windows and then deal with a few windows at a time (rest minimized) or restart X (which is MUCH easier then in Windows, because you can't JUST restart X...this means my services still run, my VMWare machines don't have to shut down, etc)

Didn't quite answer my question but it was semi-rhetorical. MS would catch teh fits if they did this.

Just FYI though: The Shell, Aero/Glass and Driver itself can all be restarted on the fly now in Vista. Restarting the driver isn't an option available to the user but the OS can do it if the driver fails. I've seen it happen before. It's quite nice and beats the hell out of an nvdisp* BSOD.

 

[Markbnj]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

why would a computer tech go in to the field and work on a computer with an OS he had never used hands-on. That is a recipe for exactly what happen.

Because Windows is easy to use, isn't it?

Troll . Let's send a hundred techs into the field to set up Windows for customers, and a hundred techs into the field to set up whatever distro of Linux you like. Random machines. Some pre-defined set of productivity apps and capabilities, and see what percentage of the installs experience problems that affect the time needed to finish the job.

 

[drag]

The nice thing about Linux's 3d interface over Vista's is that you don't need a fast video card to get it.

What is the minimal requirement for you using all of Vista's Areo Glass effects?

I know that on Beryl it performed perfectly well on my onboard Intel video card in all it's glory. The only major downside is that "wobbly windows" is ugly with video playback unless you disable hardware acceleration for it.

With Linux if you have a driver bug.. X just crashes, the video display resets, gdm is restarted and have to log in agian. That is unless the driver puts the video card in a bad state, then it won't come back up (which is what would happen in Vista).

Now I don't know with Vista having it's GUI restarted.. Does it preserve the state of applications on that gui or say if you had a application open would the application get killed in the proccess?

 

[Smilin]

Yeah, honestly I'm blown away by how well Vista handles nVidia's currently ****** drivers.

You see a slightly long black flicker and nothing more (.5 sec?). A bubble pops in the notification area telling you the driver has been reset and that's it.

All running apps (3d or otherwise) remain intact. None of that disappearing taskbar icons problem that XP had when explorer.exe restarted.

 

[Smilin]

Also, as some of you have seen, if performance starts tanking it dynamically flips glass off then back on when more horsepower becomes available.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: drag
The nice thing about Linux's 3d interface over Vista's is that you don't need a fast video card to get it.

What is the minimal requirement for you using all of Vista's Areo Glass effects?

MS says:

Support for DirectX 9 graphics with a WDDM driver, 128 MB of graphics memory (minimum)², Pixel Shader 2.0 and 32 bits per pixel.

The "2" goes to:

If the GPU uses shared memory, then no additional graphics memory is required beyond the 1 GB system memory requirement; If the GPU uses dedicated memory then 128MB is required.

Given that the UI uses DX9 programmable shaders... it can't really work with non-DX9 hardware unless they emulated that stuff in software. I don't know the technical details of Beryl, but if it work on lower-end 3D hardware either it's doing some things in software or it only uses DX8 shaders (which are less flexible but not necessarily slower).

Since it can work on cards that use shared memory, I wouldn't be surprised if it could work with less than 128MB of onboard VRAM, although performance might suffer.

Edit: Some searching shows that the base part of Beryl uses pretty low-level OpenGL stuff that any remotely modern video card with Linux drivers will support (similar to the regular 2D UI that Vista supports). Some of the extra effects are done through OpenGL fragment shaders (analogous to DX8/DX9 pixel/vertex shaders) and will only work on newer cards that support those shader types. So if you want "all" of Beryl, you'll need somewhat newer hardware as well.

 

[nweaver]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: nweaver

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: nweaver
If you haven't had a linux box at home for a while, check out the ease of Ubuntu + Nvidia card + Beryl. Very nice Eyecandy. Make sure you get one with lots of memory, my GForce4 TI 4200 runs out of onboard memory and then has the "black" screen.

k, not trying to troll here but this caught my attention.

If a Windows product ran out of onboard video memory and caused a "black" screen this board would be full of people shaking with rage bitching at MS. Why can non-MS OSs get away with this?

I don't blame XGL/AIGLX/Linux/Ubuntu...I blame NVIDIA, this is a bug in their drivers...they just won't fix it. The bigges problem is that on some older hardware, I am runing dual 1280x1024 screens, with 4 virtual desktops, and lots of open applications (mail, 2 different browser windows with multiple tabs per window, VMWare Server Console, GAIM, Beep, couple of terminals, etc)

Still beats vista imho, because I can't even turn Aero ON with that H/W. If NVIDIA ever fixes their driver, I would be fine. As it is, when this happens I can either minimize all the windows and then deal with a few windows at a time (rest minimized) or restart X (which is MUCH easier then in Windows, because you can't JUST restart X...this means my services still run, my VMWare machines don't have to shut down, etc)

Didn't quite answer my question but it was semi-rhetorical. MS would catch teh fits if they did this.

Just FYI though: The Shell, Aero/Glass and Driver itself can all be restarted on the fly now in Vista. Restarting the driver isn't an option available to the user but the OS can do it if the driver fails. I've seen it happen before. It's quite nice and beats the hell out of an nvdisp* BSOD.

They wouldn't from me, I would blame Nvidia, for writing crappy drivers....

 

[nweaver]

Originally posted by: Markbnj

Originally posted by: Nothinman

why would a computer tech go in to the field and work on a computer with an OS he had never used hands-on. That is a recipe for exactly what happen.

Because Windows is easy to use, isn't it?

Troll . Let's send a hundred techs into the field to set up Windows for customers, and a hundred techs into the field to set up whatever distro of Linux you like. Random machines. Some pre-defined set of productivity apps and capabilities, and see what percentage of the installs experience problems that affect the time needed to finish the job.

tbh, I would guess it would be Ubuntu over Vista, unless you are going to throw in some "windows only app" instead of a more generic set of apps, such as "Office Suite, Mail client" type of stuff...If you want to say "MS Office 2007" then fine, but we are going to throw Beagle, Evolution, and an X server to that list, just to "make it fair".

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: hardcandy2
"It was an Athlon X2 3800 with 1 GB of RAM and onboard nVidia graphics. " Vista Basic should run fine on that computer. I am wondering if it had McAfee, Norton, etc trying to load and update in the background?
The man is looked upon as being knowledgable about computers, I doubt talking trash to him is going to make anything better. Smilin, if only your mother could hear you now.
Plus there is the Dell Control Center also trying to load and update. I usually let a Dell load and update for 30 minutes before trying to work witrh it.

Missed the system specs - my bad. To be honest I skimmed the post. As I said in my original reply, it needs cliffs!

 

[Lepard]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Yeah, honestly I'm blown away by how well Vista handles nVidia's currently ****** drivers.

You see a slightly long black flicker and nothing more (.5 sec?). A bubble pops in the notification area telling you the driver has been reset and that's it.

All running apps (3d or otherwise) remain intact. None of that disappearing taskbar icons problem that XP had when explorer.exe restarted.

This is true! The first (and only) time it occurred I was thrown back to my desktop and after the driver was reset, I was able to continue playing NBA Live 07. Guess moving drivers to the "user space" definitely has its advantages.

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: nweaver

They wouldn't from me, I would blame Nvidia, for writing crappy drivers....

You? no. You, Nothinman, drag, all the usual suspects I know can spot the difference between MS and 3rd party issues. I think you feel me tho, MS would get clowned if they had such an issue. Bah, I'm ranting. nuf said.