Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[Doug S]

This soooo much.

It feels like a non zero chance that MS might even abandon Windows at some point in the future beyond basic maintenance and optimisation.

I assumed that was their plan when they said Windows 10 would be the "last Windows version ever". They would just release feature updates a couple times a year and patches year round, but would cease making it about what version of Windows you have. But if that was their plan they obviously re-thought it given Windows 11.

What Microsoft won't do is abandon the Windows tax on PCs. Even if Chromebooks eat into their share around the edges for cost sensitive markets like schools, most people will continue buying a Windows PC when their old one craps out simply because they want to stick with what they know, and that contributes many billions in revenue for Microsoft.

 

[soresu]

Maybe that's pandemic sales, where I can imagine PCs grew faster (relatively) than macOS

Likely.

Companies and employees would have been buying remote working laptops fast for as cheap as possible.

I was working remotely on a Chromebook in 2021 for the COVID track and trace system, lol soooo slow 😆, but I can imagine similar Atom/Mont hardware based Windows PCs were sold in bulk during that period too.

 

[linkgoron]

This soooo much.

It feels like a non zero chance that MS might even abandon Windows at some point in the future beyond basic maintenance and optimisation.

I Don't really think that this would ever happen. A least not for the next 10+ years, IMO. It's a gateway to a lot of their stuff today, from Edge/Bing, Office, Xbox Gaming, Teams etc. Azure also has a lot of Windows infrastructure in it, and their main development platform is mostly Windows based (although .NET is supposedly cross-platform, but I haven't been following very closely).

 

[Mopetar]

How does that figure when Apple only ships ~8% of all PCs? Many possible factors:

You missed the most obvious factor: You can buy a Mac and use it for upwards of a decade if you don't need additional performance.

Years and years ago I bought my mother a MacBook Air to replace some abyssal craptop she was using that was only two years old but falling apart.

She used that MBA for a little over nine years before it started having problems and needed to be replaced. I was surprised it last that long, but for what it cost it was actually less expensive on a cost/year basis than the awful low-end Windows laptops that were lucky to make it three years.

I'm hardly surprised that Apple's market share is high even though it's shipments are low. The hardware is solid and will last as long as both a cheaper alternative and whatever replaces it when it goes to pot. My dad is still using a second generation iPad Air that's also getting close to a decade old. Still works great and for all I know it could outlast him.

 

[poke01]

There are rumours that the A17 CPU cores are still Everest/Sawtooth but clocked higher. If this true then Apple's CPU team is truly dead.

 

[Doug S]

You missed the most obvious factor: You can buy a Mac and use it for upwards of a decade if you don't need additional performance.

Years and years ago I bought my mother a MacBook Air to replace some abyssal craptop she was using that was only two years old but falling apart.

She used that MBA for a little over nine years before it started having problems and needed to be replaced. I was surprised it last that long, but for what it cost it was actually less expensive on a cost/year basis than the awful low-end Windows laptops that were lucky to make it three years.

I'm hardly surprised that Apple's market share is high even though it's shipments are low. The hardware is solid and will last as long as both a cheaper alternative and whatever replaces it when it goes to pot. My dad is still using a second generation iPad Air that's also getting close to a decade old. Still works great and for all I know it could outlast him.

Yep the "market share" for operating systems is an incorrect term they shouldn't have used. It should be called installed base to reflect that it is what is in use in a given year rather than what is sold in a given year.

People also have to remember that while Apple's market share by units may be 8% or whatever, if you look at market share by revenue it is more than double that since they only play at the higher end. Why does that matter, you ask? The reason you occasionally see people complaining that some new macOS release doesn't support their older Mac is because the hardware generally lasts a long time (occasional f-ups like the butterfly keyboards notwithstanding) and they get annoyed when they can't run the latest OS on it anymore (even though Apple will keep pushing out security patches for the older version, like they do for iOS, so it isn't like they are losing all support)

By contrast do you remember anyone complaining about Windows PCs, some only a few years old, being effectively obsoleted by Windows 11's TPM requirements? Of course not, because the PCs that were only a few years old that didn't support the necessary TPM were all low end crap they bought for $300. They weren't buying something they thought would last 10 years, and didn't care whether it could run the latest OS. They likewise are still getting patches for as long as Windows 10 is supported so they can still be used, but people buying low end hardware have less expectation about long term support because they have less expectation the hardware will last long enough for that to matter.

 

[Nothingness]

There are rumours that the A17 CPU cores are still Everest/Sawtooth but clocked higher. If this true then Apple's CPU team is truly dead.

Or they are busy working on a new micro-architecture.

 

[Mopetar]

Or they're spending a lot of development time on some of the other non-CPU cores. I would be surprised if over the next five years we see them add new types of specialized cores to accelerate specific types of workloads.

Since they're so vertically integrated the design priorities for their SoCs aren't quite the same as other companies.

 

[igor_kavinski]

By contrast do you remember anyone complaining about Windows PCs, some only a few years old, being effectively obsoleted by Windows 11's TPM requirements? Of course not, because the PCs that were only a few years old that didn't support the necessary TPM were all low end crap they bought for $300. They weren't buying something they thought would last 10 years, and didn't care whether it could run the latest OS. They likewise are still getting patches for as long as Windows 10 is supported so they can still be used, but people buying low end hardware have less expectation about long term support because they have less expectation the hardware will last long enough for that to matter.

Maybe that's true for the US market but for the rest of the world,

1) Windows 11 doesn't bring anything revolutionary for most people so those with older hardware are less likely to desire it.

2) Those that do want to be on the latest OS, are using Rufus or other tricks to bypass TPM.

3) Sellers on Amazon UAE, selling refurbished Intel Core pre-8th gen laptops, are preloading them with Windows 11 with the TPM bypass.

4) A lot of these people running Windows 11 on unsupported hardware probably may not get security patches from Microsoft and they don't care because they have no idea that Windows needs to be patched regularly.

5) People would be complaining a LOT about Win11 TPM if there was NO way to bypass it.

 

[mikegg]

That's not accurate. Data shows macOS growth, too, in the past 10 years. Apple has doubled their macOS market share in a decade and the growth began before M1. So M1 as the catalyst is also not accurate.

Jan 2013
Windows: 90.90%
Mac: 7.95%
Linux: 0.88%
Unknown: 0.19%
Chrome: 0.01%

Jan 2023
Windows: 74.14% (down 18%, relative)
Mac: 15.33% (up 93%, relative)
Linux: 2.91%
Unknown: 5.28%
Chrome: 2.35%

How does that figure when Apple only ships ~8% of all PCs? Many possible factors: shipments vs usage (shipped it, but never sold to an end-user), sale vs usage (bought it, but not using it), different calculation methods (Apple's shipments are all estimates, not an official #), PCs used for 'hidden' workloads (gov't, bots), etc.

Traditionally, market share has meant sales per quarter, but Statista seems to imply usage. On a more strictly usage at Stat Counter who uses web trackers, macOS now accounts for ~20% of global PCs. Same situation: growth has been steady since 2009. In fact, in 2020+, macOS seems to have grown slower than usual, but that could also mean there were far more Windows PCs than usual. Maybe that's pandemic sales, where I can imagine PCs grew faster (relatively) than macOS, but need data to confirm that first.

The logical explanation for why macOS has higher share relative to Macs sold is that Macs last much longer than Windows computers.

My sibling still uses a Macbook Air that is around 8 years old. Meanwhile, the junk Windows laptops you buy at Walmart will usually break, become unbearably slow, or become unsupported in 2 years.

This is exactly what I meant when I said Macbooks are higher quality and last much longer on average in my last few posts. I bet even if you compare a $1,000 Macbook to a $1,000 Windows laptop, the Macbook would last much longer.

 

[mikegg]

You missed the most obvious factor: You can buy a Mac and use it for upwards of a decade if you don't need additional performance.

Years and years ago I bought my mother a MacBook Air to replace some abyssal craptop she was using that was only two years old but falling apart.

She used that MBA for a little over nine years before it started having problems and needed to be replaced. I was surprised it last that long, but for what it cost it was actually less expensive on a cost/year basis than the awful low-end Windows laptops that were lucky to make it three years.

I'm hardly surprised that Apple's market share is high even though it's shipments are low. The hardware is solid and will last as long as both a cheaper alternative and whatever replaces it when it goes to pot. My dad is still using a second generation iPad Air that's also getting close to a decade old. Still works great and for all I know it could outlast him.

This is exactly what I wrote above. I did not read your post beforehand.

Exact same experience. I've seen Macbook Airs get nearly a decade of use. You can't really do this with crap Windows laptops - even the highend expensive ones.

 

[igor_kavinski]

My sibling still uses a Macbook Air that is around 8 years old.

Another way of looking at it: your sibling is resigned to the performance of a CPU that was acceptable EIGHT years ago. He/she, like a frog trapped in a well, has no idea how fast modern CPUs/storage have become.

Windows laptops, on the other hand, become so slow after several months that you are forced to sell them or hand them down to a family member and then you get to experience the newness and awesomeness of the latest Intel/AMD CPU!

Verdict: Mac people choose to be married to their computers. Apple targets these very people with their high priced devices. For the rest of us, Apple seems way too expensive.

 

[igor_kavinski]

You can't really do this with crap Windows laptops - even the highend expensive ones.

My main "hundreds of tabs open" browsing computer is a 3rd gen Core i7 Thinkpad with 32GB RAM AND a WD Green 240GB SSD.

 

[Mopetar]

Another way of looking at it: your sibling is resigned to the performance of a CPU that was acceptable EIGHT years ago. He/she, like a frog trapped in a well, has no idea how fast modern CPUs/storage have become.

My mom was mainly using her laptops for Facebook, email, and light word processing / spreadsheet use.

Computers were able to do all of that perfectly well eight years ago. A MacBook Air had practically been able to do that since it first came out. Even the ancient model I bought for my mother had flash storage instead of a slow spinning disk.

The newer models with an M1 absolutely destroy any of the older models using an x86 CPU on battery life. Otherwise the extra CPU power is largely wasted on such users. A new computer would be faster, but they'd never notice based on what they're using it for. What they'd really be buying is a smaller/lighter device with better battery life. I suppose a nicer screen as well.

 

[igor_kavinski]

My mom was mainly using her laptops for Facebook, email, and light word processing / spreadsheet use.

A light user like that is unlikely to trash a Windows laptop and it should keep working for many years too. Well, if Windows doesn't trash the laptop with a borked update, that is.

 

[A///]

Well, if Windows doesn't trash the laptop with a borked update, that is.

which it will

 

[mikegg]

Another way of looking at it: your sibling is resigned to the performance of a CPU that was acceptable EIGHT years ago. He/she, like a frog trapped in a well, has no idea how fast modern CPUs/storage have become.

Windows laptops, on the other hand, become so slow after several months that you are forced to sell them or hand them down to a family member and then you get to experience the newness and awesomeness of the latest Intel/AMD CPU!

Verdict: Mac people choose to be married to their computers. Apple targets these very people with their high priced devices. For the rest of us, Apple seems way too expensive.

Nope. Has nothing to do with speed. Sure, modern SoCs are faster. It has everything to do with the build quality and good OS updates.

Again, a highend Windows laptop will likely never be able to last as long as Apple's cheapest Macbook in the real world.

 

[ikjadoon]

You missed the most obvious factor: You can buy a Mac and use it for upwards of a decade if you don't need additional performance.

Years and years ago I bought my mother a MacBook Air to replace some abyssal craptop she was using that was only two years old but falling apart.

She used that MBA for a little over nine years before it started having problems and needed to be replaced. I was surprised it last that long, but for what it cost it was actually less expensive on a cost/year basis than the awful low-end Windows laptops that were lucky to make it three years.

I'm hardly surprised that Apple's market share is high even though it's shipments are low. The hardware is solid and will last as long as both a cheaper alternative and whatever replaces it when it goes to pot. My dad is still using a second generation iPad Air that's also getting close to a decade old. Still works great and for all I know it could outlast him.

That's a fair conclusion. Now, to have data to back up that conventional wisdom would be helpful.

MacOS versioning reporting is a mess. And replacement cycle (average lifetime) for all Windows PCs is also not well reported.

But anecdotally, I'd agree: I know plenty using Macs that have long lost MacOS support from Apple because the hardware still feels solid (so 7+ years old devices).

//

In other news, IDC says Intel CPUs are down to ~85% in the commercial PC market with AMD taking 11% and Apple taking the last 5%. And once again, commercial + education PCs greatly outsell consumer PCs in volume.

Segment	Global Shipments in 2023 (millions)	% of Total
Consumer	112.0	44.4%
Education	31.1	12.3%
Commercial (excluding education)	108.9	43.2%
Total	252.0	—

So Apple eating into commercial is also an important shift, as that used to be Intel's near-monopoly.

 

[mikegg]

That's a fair conclusion. Now, to have data to back up that conventional wisdom would be helpful.

MacOS versioning reporting is a mess. And replacement cycle (average lifetime) for all Windows PCs is also not well reported.

But anecdotally, I'd agree: I know plenty using Macs that have long lost MacOS support from Apple because the hardware still feels solid (so 7+ years old devices).

//

In other news, IDC says Intel CPUs are down to ~85% in the commercial PC market with AMD taking 11% and Apple taking the last 5%. And once again, commercial + education PCs greatly outsell consumer PCs in volume.

Segment	Global Shipments in 2023 (millions)	% of Total
Consumer	112.0	44.4%
Education	31.1	12.3%
Commercial (excluding education)	108.9	43.2%
Total	252.0	—

So Apple eating into commercial is also an important shift, as that used to be Intel's near-monopoly.

I keep seeing this ad on Reddit:



No doubt Apple wants a piece of the enterprise/business computer market. It makes logical sense. Most enterprises/businesses actually prefer to deploy iPhones to their employees and their employees prefer iPhones. Deploying Macs along with iPhones make a lot of sense for both users and IT departments. It's up to Apple to build out the sales channels and business support for macs.

 

[Mopetar]

A light user like that is unlikely to trash a Windows laptop and it should keep working for many years too. Well, if Windows doesn't trash the laptop with a borked update, that is.

Maybe you buy decent hardware, but my mom just cycled through plastica-fantasticas that had engineering tolerances so loose that not even the Soviets would have accepted them. Bloatware-laden junk heaps that probably had as much lead in the solder as they did in the battery. Did I mention Windows Vista? The only view that abomination offered was of hell.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Did I mention Windows Vista?

That old??? Give your mom a masterclass on PC hardware/software

 

[scannall]

I'm sure at least some of you remember Windows ME. Probably with much pain. My mother had a I *think* Packard Bell PC then. She would turn it on then go make and eat breakfast. It may or may not be done booting by then. As I was the family tech support I got fed up and bought her an iMac. Tech support calls went to zero after the initial setup and training. She is on her third iMac now. In her 90's and doing everything she could want to do. Including 3D modeling which has been a passion of hers for a long time now.

 

[Doug S]

I'm sure at least some of you remember Windows ME. Probably with much pain. My mother had a I *think* Packard Bell PC then. She would turn it on then go make and eat breakfast. It may or may not be done booting by then. As I was the family tech support I got fed up and bought her an iMac. Tech support calls went to zero after the initial setup and training. She is on her third iMac now. In her 90's and doing everything she could want to do. Including 3D modeling which has been a passion of hers for a long time now.

I got effectively drafted into being my mom's Windows tech support years ago which my brother found hilarious since I don't even use Windows. The laugh was on him though, when her flip phone became obsolete due to carriers dropping 3G and she was forced to get an Android I pointed to the fact I use an iPhone and got my brother drafted into supporting her phone so I think I won in the end lol

 

[A///]

Even for profiecient windows users macos is simply a nice breath of fresh air. my only complaint is the polish for each new major macos version is slowly going away with the dumb bugs that persist into gold.

 

[soresu]

Even for profiecient windows users macos is simply a nice breath of fresh air

Lol speak for yourself, to me it's an emanation from Satan 😂