Discussion Apple Silicon SoC thread

[Eug]

M1
5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LP-DDR4
16 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 12 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache
(Apple claims the 4 high-effiency cores alone perform like a dual-core Intel MacBook Air)

8-core iGPU (but there is a 7-core variant, likely with one inactive core)
128 execution units
Up to 24576 concurrent threads
2.6 Teraflops
82 Gigatexels/s
41 gigapixels/s

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Products:
$999 ($899 edu) 13" MacBook Air (fanless) - 18 hour video playback battery life
$699 Mac mini (with fan)
$1299 ($1199 edu) 13" MacBook Pro (with fan) - 20 hour video playback battery life

Memory options 8 GB and 16 GB. No 32 GB option (unless you go Intel).

It should be noted that the M1 chip in these three Macs is the same (aside from GPU core number). Basically, Apple is taking the same approach which these chips as they do the iPhones and iPads. Just one SKU (excluding the X variants), which is the same across all iDevices (aside from maybe slight clock speed differences occasionally).

EDIT:



M1 Pro 8-core CPU (6+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 14-core GPU
M1 Pro 10-core CPU (8+2), 16-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 24-core GPU
M1 Max 10-core CPU (8+2), 32-core GPU

M1 Pro and M1 Max discussion here:

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M1 Ultra discussion here:

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M2 discussion here:

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Second Generation 5 nm
Unified memory architecture - LPDDR5, up to 24 GB and 100 GB/s
20 billion transistors

8-core CPU

4 high-performance cores
192 KB instruction cache
128 KB data cache
Shared 16 MB L2 cache

4 high-efficiency cores
128 KB instruction cache
64 KB data cache
Shared 4 MB L2 cache

10-core iGPU (but there is an 8-core variant)
3.6 Teraflops

16-core neural engine
Secure Enclave
USB 4

Hardware acceleration for 8K h.264, h.264, ProRes

M3 Family discussion here:

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M4 Family discussion here:

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[Eug]

Haha. 😂

While 8 GB is still OK for many entry level MB Air users IMO, I think it’s time they move to 12 GB base at those prices. Perhaps at the next MB Pro iteration? And then then MB Air too.

 

[igor_kavinski]

View attachment 88662

Unconscionable. $1599 worth of hardware ruined by skimping on maybe max $100 of chips. Way to go, filthy rich Apple execs. Enjoy your money and hope you "shareholder-loyal" decision makers suffer in hell for eternity.

 

[Ajay]

Unconscionable. $1599 worth of hardware ruined by skimping on maybe max $100 of chips. Way to go, filthy rich Apple execs. Enjoy your money and hope you "shareholder-loyal" decision makers suffer in hell for eternity.

Me < wished I had invested in Apple in 2002 as I intended to, then i could be retiring now and grateful for Apple's greed

 

[igor_kavinski]

Me < wished I had invested in Apple in 2022 as I intended to, then i could be retiring now and grateful for Apple's greed

Ya know, it takes one person with "bad luck" to bring down an entire ship

I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure that if I dumped all my savings into Apple stock today, I would wake up to the news of the worst Apple stock price crash in its entire history!

 

[FlameTail]

Just like the PPA (Performance, Power, Area) triangle we are all familair with, we now need to make another triangle called CSE (Consumers, Shareholders, Employees).

Apple is a company where the S and E are having a great time, while C is getting the short end of the stick.

 

[Mopetar]

Anyone buying the base model of any product is a bit of a fool. Apple isn't using 8 GB because they want to save $10 on parts. They use it because everyone knows it's pitifully low and will spend another $100 to upgrade to 16 GB.

If Apple sets the base model to an acceptable level then fewer people will upgrade. The lower price on the base model is just there to get you interested so that you'll configure it with another $400 in upgrades.

 

[Ajay]

Anyone buying the base model of any product is a bit of a fool. Apple isn't using 8 GB because they want to save $10 on parts. They use it because everyone knows it's pitifully low and will spend another $100 to upgrade to 16 GB.

If Apple sets the base model to an acceptable level then fewer people will upgrade. The lower price on the base model is just there to get you interested so that you'll configure it with another $400 in upgrades.

Yes, the upsell. I think it's $200 for the extra 8GB!! Then, unless you are primarily browse the web an do social media, you'll want to upgrade the small SSD as well.

 

[MadRat]

Unconscionable. $1599 worth of hardware ruined by skimping on maybe max $100 of chips. Way to go, filthy rich Apple execs. Enjoy your money and hope you "shareholder-loyal" decision makers suffer in hell for eternity.

Wasnt over-selling low value what led to their previous need for Jobs to return?

Honestly, theyve flipped the script where low end is no longer good enough. Maybe its because they have something new on the horizon where they just stuck to literally a rehash this cycle not to be too similar to the next round.

 

[Ajay]

Wasnt over-selling low value what led to their previous need for Jobs to return?

Mr. Pepsi Co selling sugar water for profit? Yeah. But, there were far more structural problems within Apple then. They couldn't even design a proper modern operating system. Pretty bad for a company known for turning ideas in Wang Lab's skunk works into reality.

 

[MadRat]

Mr. Pepsi Co selling sugar water for profit? Yeah. But, there were far more structural problems within Apple then. They couldn't even design a proper modern operating system. Pretty bad for a company known for turning ideas in Wang Lab's skunk works into reality.

I had a Wang 8088.

 

[poke01]

So now that the M3 tech talks are out, we can confirm that the Ray tracing tech is more inline with Nvidias and Intel.

AMD seems to the odd one out with their implementation

 

[poke01]

Edit: Duplicate

 

[Saylick]

So now that the M3 tech talks are out, we can confirm that the Ray tracing tech is more inline with Nvidias and Intel.

AMD seems to the odd one out with their implementation

Thanks for the tip... Yes, looks like Apple's implementation is much more inline w/ Intel and Nvidia's approach via a hardware RT unit plus a thread reordering engine that mitigates thread divergence.

Explore GPU advancements in M3 and A17 Pro - Tech Talks - Videos - Apple Developer

Learn how Dynamic Caching, the next-generation shader core, hardware-accelerated ray tracing, and hardware-accelerated mesh shading of...

developer.apple.com

 

[FlameTail]

So now that the M3 tech talks are out, we can confirm that the Ray tracing tech is more inline with Nvidias and Intel.

AMD seems to the odd one out with their implementation

Oooh

Can someone summarise what's the difference between those two?

And is it known what technique Qualcomm Adreno uses?

 

[oak8292]

Wasnt over-selling low value what led to their previous need for Jobs to return?

Not really. The main problem with Apple at the time of Jobs return was shrinking volume which is a death knell in computing. The candy colored iMacs, the agreement with Microsoft to continue developing software and the eventual shift to Intel processors is what saved the Mac business. Apple grew by developing, iPods, iPhones and iPads which increased volumes to Windows/Intel equivalent. Microsoft sells around 300 million Windows licenses per year and Apple sells around 300 million iPhones, iPads and Macs, with Macs being the lowest in volume.

P.S. Scully was followed by Spindler and Gil Amelio before the return of Jobs. Scully was the one that got Apple involved with ARM for the Newton. Scully wouldn't license the OS to increase volume, that was Gil Amelio.

Ajay is right that you need to be both a shareholder and a user. I have used Macs since the original 128K Mac and I have owned shares on and off for the last forty years. My Apple earnings have returned more than I have spent on all the Apple products over the last 40 years, even including a Newton, which was a serious waste of money.

 

[poke01]

And is it known what technique Qualcomm Adreno uses?

we barely know about Adreno's arch, Qualcomm is more closed off than Apple when doing tech talks

 

[dr1337]

MacWorld nails it:

interesting tidbit from that article

Is it a problem to sell a Mac with 8GB in 2023-2024? No. Is it a problem to sell a MacBook Pro for $1,600 with only 8GB of RAM? Oh god, yes. If 8GB will be a bottleneck for many today, imagine the performance of that non-upgradeable laptop in a few years’ time.

This circular reasoning is exactly how Apple keeps getting away with anti-consumer practices. The author only cares about how apple is branding a chip. Imagine that if the new macbook pro started at $1800 with 16gb (the same price scheme apple already has). I doubt any article complaining would have been written in that case.

The M3 in a mac mini, or a macbook air, or a macbook pro is always the same chip regardless of how its branded. There's just no logic on accepting 8gb on a high end "entry level" computer. Now on a device running a gutted mobile OS like a tablet or VR headset, sure. But cutting edge silicon running a full fat OS should never be sold with 8gb regardless of how its marketed and people shouldn't appease it.

 

[FlameTail]

You guys know what really rubs salt into the wound?

RAM prices were down this year by as much as 30% !

Apple is raking in astronomical profits.

 

[Eug]

This circular reasoning is exactly how Apple keeps getting away with anti-consumer practices. The author only cares about how apple is branding a chip. Imagine that if the new macbook pro started at $1800 with 16gb (the same price scheme apple already has). I doubt any article complaining would have been written in that case.

The M3 in a mac mini, or a macbook air, or a macbook pro is always the same chip regardless of how its branded. There's just no logic on accepting 8gb on a high end "entry level" computer. Now on a device running a gutted mobile OS like a tablet or VR headset, sure. But cutting edge silicon running a full fat OS should never be sold with 8gb regardless of how its marketed and people shouldn't appease it.

To be fair, as I've mentioned before, my wife and tween daughter both have Macs with 8 GB RAM and are just fine with it. They never stress their machines, as they are light users. One has a 2015 MBP and one has a 2017 MBA, but that's mainly just because those were the used machines that I found cheap in excellent condition. (The 2015 was essentially brand new when I bought it two years ago in 2021 because it had very recently received an OEM battery replacement, which means a new battery, top case, keyboard, power button, and trackpad... and I think it may have even gotten a new screen too because that was perfect too.) Since they are light users, if they were looking in 2023, they would be looking at the MacBook Air, not MacBook Pro. For a $1599 MacBook Pro, I was not surprised it got 8 GB, and actually that was what I was expecting, but it was still disappointing as 12 GB would have been more appropriate.

In 2024 the MacBook Air will get updated, but I don't expect that to get 12 GB either. I would expect the M3 MacBook Air to follow the new M3 MacBook Pro with 8 GB again. (I am assuming the MBA won't skip this generation's SoC.) However, I am hoping for everyone's sake that when the MacBook Pro gets M4, it goes to 12 GB. 16 GB would be even better, but I'm not expecting that. And then when the MBA gets M4 too, it also goes to 12 GB.

P.S. I bought AAPL a long, long time ago... and then sold it when I made a 50% return. This was way back when AAPL was well under $100, and long before some stock splits. If I had only kept it...

 

[dr1337]

One has a 2015 MBP and one has a 2017

I'm perfectly fine with both of those devices only having 8gb too, but for 2023 products it's more like if those laptops only had 4gb.

 

[Mopetar]

Wasnt over-selling low value what led to their previous need for Jobs to return?

Not really. It was having too many products on top of allowing third parties to sell Mac clones which gave consumers little reason to prefer Apple hardware and a lot of confusion when it came to trying to decode what to buy.

When Jobs returned he killed off the licensing of the OS to third parties and greatly simplified Apple's product lines. He also killed off a lot of other stuff so the company could just focus on Macs and getting OS X out the door.

The iPod being so successful made people who might never consider a Mac actually look at them and Apple's eventual move to x86 helped people alleviate some of their fears to moving to a Mac. Windows Vista probably made many thankful that they had.

 

[Eug]

I'm perfectly fine with both of those devices only having 8gb too, but for 2023 products it's more like if those laptops only had 4gb.

Perhaps, but the point I was making was that I bought them in 2021, and they run fine for their usage in 2023 with current software and 8 GB RAM. That's why it doesn't bother me that much that an MBA would start at 8 GB RAM in 2023. However, the much more expensive MBP is a different story. I would hope it would start at 12 GB at the next iteration:

M4 MBP - 12 GB base, 24 GB option
M4 Pro MBP - 18 GB base, 36 GB option
M4 Max MBP - 36 GB base, higher options

BTW, I think this may have been mentioned already but the M3 Max memory options are also somewhat restrictive:

M3 Max 14/30 core - 36 GB base, 96 GB option, with nothing in between
M3 Max 16/40 core - 48 GB base, 64 GB option, 128 GB option

IOW, you can't get 48, 64, or 128 GB with M3 Max 14/30, and you can't get 36 GB or 96 GB with M3 Max 16/40.

 

[manly]

Wasnt over-selling low value what led to their previous need for Jobs to return?

Honestly, theyve flipped the script where low end is no longer good enough. Maybe its because they have something new on the horizon where they just stuck to literally a rehash this cycle not to be too similar to the next round.

To expand on Mopetar's explanation, Apple originally licensed their OS to clone makers because they were getting beat up on the low end (this is the era when PCs first became cheap). They expected clone makers to sell just cheaper models to consumers. The clone makers realized that would have been dumb, so they competed hard with Apple in the premium segment.

IIRC one of the first things Jobs did was to buy out the OS licensing deals with the clone makers.

I had a Wang 8088.

Also my very first PC!

 

[trivik12]

You guys know what really rubs salt into the wound?

RAM prices were down this year by as much as 30% !

Apple is raking in astronomical profits.

I like it as a Apple shareholder though I dont use any of their products(My wife has an iphone and my dad has an iPad). I hope the fanbase keep buying the overpriced stuff. whether its a $1000 monitor stand, $20 cleaning cloth or upgrading to M3 Max pros for just browsing the internet

 

[igor_kavinski]

Bye bye Apple Store monopoly? https://www.tweaktown.com/news/9430...ever-as-hidden-ios-17-2-code-shows/index.html