Apple v. Samsung Jury Decision.

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PlatinumRice

Senior member
Aug 26, 2012
241
0
0
The juror discussing the "guidance" received from the patent-expert
juror foreman…

"After we debated that first patent — what was prior art —because we had
a hard time believing there was no prior art."

"In fact we skipped that one," Ilagan continued, "so we could go
on faster. It was bogging us down."
 

grkM3

Golden Member
Jul 29, 2011
1,407
0
0
When the IP4 came out, there was nothing in the ballpark of the IP4.
It was the IP4 that made me an Apple fan.
The design, the retina display, the fluidity of the OS was untouched at the time.
At that time, Android didn't even have dual-core yet.

Hmm

My friend the s2 was out at the same time as the iPhone 4 and it handed it an ass beating harder than what Samsung got in court last week
 
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Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
The juror discussing the "guidance" received from the patent-expert
juror foreman…

"After we debated that first patent — what was prior art —because we had
a hard time believing there was no prior art."

"In fact we skipped that one," Ilagan continued, "so we could go
on faster. It was bogging us down."

Will people that support Samsung in this case start seeing a conspiracy??? I think so...

Let this go, guys. Samsung is not an original company. Even the name 'Samsung', is a direct copy of Mitsubishi. They both mean 'three stars' in their respective languages but the Japanese company was first. Perhaps this will be a learning experience for Samsung and they will develop their 'inspire by nature' line of ugly phones and even worse software. It HAS to get better, right?

Enough about this case, I need to go get lunch...
 

abaez

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
7,155
1
81
The way I interpret the patent laws is that prior art COULD invalidate patents not that they automatically do. Apple has the multitouch patent and that has to be invalidated first. Aside from that, you nor I know anything specific about Apple's patent to make claims about whether or not the prior art has any bearing.

There were many other patents as well, not just multitouch.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20073461-264/apples-new-multitouch-patent-faq/

Here's the abstract:

A computer-implemented method, for use in conjunction with a portable multifunction device with a touch screen display, comprises displaying a portion of page content, including a frame displaying a portion of frame content and also including other content of the page, on the touch screen display. An N-finger translation gesture is detected on or near the touch screen display. In response, the page content, including the displayed portion of the frame content and the other content of the page, is translated to display a new portion of page content on the touch screen display. An M-finger translation gesture is detected on or near the touch screen display, where M is a different number than N. In response, the frame content is translated to display a new portion of frame content on the touch screen display, without translating the other content of the page.

If you honestly and truly believe that this is not covered by the video and/or prior art then there's no convincing you. Like you said, the patent has to be invalidated, and it SHOULD have by the jury, but it wasn't, which is why people are basically scoffing at the outcome.
 
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PlatinumRice

Senior member
Aug 26, 2012
241
0
0
Will people that support Samsung in this case start seeing a conspiracy??? I think so...

Let this go, guys. Samsung is not an original company. Even the name 'Samsung', is a direct copy of Mitsubishi. They both mean 'three stars' in their respective languages but the Japanese company was first. Perhaps this will be a learning experience for Samsung and they will develop their 'inspire by nature' line of ugly phones and even worse software. It HAS to get better, right?

Enough about this case, I need to go get lunch...

I was implying they are stupid and the foreman is an obvious apple fanboy.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,551
136
Think some posts got deleted...intentional or no?

I don't have the energy to retype my lost post. Suffice to say there are a lot of people implying the judge was biased...with zero proof. There are a lot of people implying the jury was biased...with zero proof. Tin foil hat conspiracy theorists.

There is a LOT of evidence that should at least make one think there is a likely possibility Samsung infringed intentionally...but this is discounted out of hand by those who hate Apple.

As for myself, most of the UI patents should probably get thrown out. However, the trade dress seems very valid considering how physically similar the devices were in conjunction with how similar Samsung's custom UI was to iOS. Especially damning after Samsung's internal email on how to make their devices more like the iPhone.

But what is the point of this post? Everyone believes what they want regardless of any mountain of evidence. My post is not going to change things. I've pretty much said all I wanted to say. Time to move on.
 

Kanalua

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
4,860
2
81
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390

verdict is likely to be overturned by a higher court

proving the jury were complete morons

I don't like the verdict in any way, but I don't think it's "likely" that it's overturned based on jury misconduct. I hope I'm wrong...

More likely Google/Motorola will have to fight this battle with a less sympathetic jury and defeat the design and, more importantly, the utility patents (one-finger scroll-two/finger-zoom, tap-to-zoom).

Apple got lucky, it had some pretty alarming evidence (exec. email), a sympathetic jury and much more easy to follow claim against samsung.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
Think some posts got deleted...intentional or no?

I don't have the energy to retype my lost post. Suffice to say there are a lot of people implying the judge was biased...with zero proof.
All the proof that's needed is the fact that she's already ruled in Apple's favor in other cases. In fact, she's been involved with 19 patent cases with Apple. She's the one who actually blocked the sale of the GNexus, claiming it looks just like an iPhone. (Which is absurd).

Cases this important, with so much at stake for the consumer, should be tried in different venues so as not to even look as crooked as this does. If Apple is so in the right, then what's the problem for them? Could it be the fact that when they're not on their home turf, with their 19 time sure-thing, they tend to get these cases thrown out of court?
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
I was implying they are stupid and the foreman is an obvious apple fanboy.

Obvious how? Here is a link on the foreman: http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_21400423/jury-foreman-apple-v-samsung-verdict-message-that

He is a 67 year old EE engineer with a few patent himself. He hardly fits the profile of an Apple fanboy, in fact quote from the news article: "Hogan came into the trial a bit of an Apple skeptic, saying he has never bought the company's products because he considers them "too pricey.""

I know there are some Apple hate in the tech community here in the US, but if you hate some company because it dominates a market, Samsung is worse than Apple in many way, especially in their own country. Samsung monopolize Korean market, not just in one or two industry, but in almost all major industries, it has vertical monopoly dominating the entire supply chain, it also has horizontal monopoly dominating various industries with their huge conglomerate to gain tremendous advantages. It accounts for 1/5 of total Korea export and it's revenue is equivalent to ~ 1/5 of Korea GDP. Korea government gives Samsung all the help they can get (currency manipulation for example) to make Samsung their shinny example of Korean success story. If you want an example of government-business collusion, you won't find a better business case.

Just by looking at the facts of this case, the email from Samsung exec, the likeliness of Samsung product vs Apple products, you don't have to be bias to tell Samsung copied Apple to certain degree.
 

kaerflog

Golden Member
Jul 23, 2010
1,899
4
76
Hmm

My friend the s2 was out at the same time as the iPhone 4 and it handed it an ass beating harder than what Samsung got in court last week

You definitely have reading comprehension problem.
I don't know what part of "When the IP4 came out, there was nothing in the ballpark of the IP4" you don't unserstand.
First, I say IP4, thats 4 not 4s. Yet you keep mentioning 4s.
The IP4 was released June 2010.
The first dual-core Android was the Optima 2x released in Jan 2011.
The Galaxy s2 was released in May 2011.
Even the turd Droid X was released in Dec 2010.
I don't understand why you have such a problem saying that the IP4 was easily the best phone available at the time of its released.
I'm a freakin Android user.
I have a HTC One S now.
I've been an Android user ever since Apple decided that the 4s was the best phone it can produce 15 months later.
I even made a thread of how disappointing the IP5 will be.
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2261293&highlight=
 

golem

Senior member
Oct 6, 2000
838
3
76
All the proof that's needed is the fact that she's already ruled in Apple's favor in other cases. In fact, she's been involved with 19 patent cases with Apple. She's the one who actually blocked the sale of the GNexus, claiming it looks just like an iPhone. (Which is absurd).

Cases this important, with so much at stake for the consumer, should be tried in different venues so as not to even look as crooked as this does. If Apple is so in the right, then what's the problem for them? Could it be the fact that when they're not on their home turf, with their 19 time sure-thing, they tend to get these cases thrown out of court?

Galaxy Nexus was temporarily banned not for looking like an iPhone but for unified search.

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Samsung-Apple-Galaxy-Nexus-Galaxy-Tab-Lucy-Koh,news-15726.html

So Apple should put themselves at a disadvantage in their court cases? What type of logic is that?
 
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MrX8503

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2005
4,529
0
0
All the proof that's needed is the fact that she's already ruled in Apple's favor in other cases. In fact, she's been involved with 19 patent cases with Apple. She's the one who actually blocked the sale of the GNexus, claiming it looks just like an iPhone. (Which is absurd).

How is this proof?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20073461-264/apples-new-multitouch-patent-faq/

Here's the abstract:



If you honestly and truly believe that this is not covered by the video and/or prior art then there's no convincing you. Like you said, the patent has to be invalidated, and it SHOULD have by the jury, but it wasn't, which is why people are basically scoffing at the outcome.

Do you honestly understand the abstract? You aren't a patent law officer nor a lawyer for that matter. According to your article apple acquired finger works in 2005, so apple has been working on gestural inputs before a lot of the competition. What's the point of convincing me? You're better off convincing the judge or jury.
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,922
3,714
136
Think some posts got deleted...intentional or no?

I don't have the energy to retype my lost post. Suffice to say there are a lot of people implying the judge was biased...with zero proof. There are a lot of people implying the jury was biased...with zero proof. Tin foil hat conspiracy theorists.

There is a LOT of evidence that should at least make one think there is a likely possibility Samsung infringed intentionally...but this is discounted out of hand by those who hate Apple.

As for myself, most of the UI patents should probably get thrown out. However, the trade dress seems very valid considering how physically similar the devices were in conjunction with how similar Samsung's custom UI was to iOS. Especially damning after Samsung's internal email on how to make their devices more like the iPhone.

But what is the point of this post? Everyone believes what they want regardless of any mountain of evidence. My post is not going to change things. I've pretty much said all I wanted to say. Time to move on.

I am not suggesting the Judge or the jury are biased. I am saying that they did a poor job. Yes Samsung's lawyers were late with a very important piece of evidence and the system you have in place means that it cannot be shown but the problem with that is you do not see the whole picture so how can the jury possible come to a fair conclusion when they have incomplete data? What should have happened is this. 1) The judge should have allowed the evidence, 2) Apple should have been given time to look at the evidence, 3) Samsung should have had the costs of this delay added to their bill (both Apples costs and the courts costs). Their lawyers made a mistake and Samsung should pay for it but with a case this important not allowing evidence on a technicality should only apply if it is not relevant to the case.

The jury also made mistakes. They talked about prior art but then skipped over it because it was taking them too long. That means they did not test validity and just assumed the patents were valid.

They made mistakes in awarding damages to devices they had said did not infringe. Now had they spent more time deliberating then these mistakes could be attributed to fatigue but in this case they were so quick it really makes you wonder how much thought they put into the the figures they were throwing around.

They ignored jury instruction 35 in part and 53 (they were the same because it was obviously important). It states that the damages should not punish the infringer but should just compensate the patent holder. The foreman admitted that they wanted the damages to be sufficiently high to be painful.

Finally the foreman holds patents that are just as vague and also have examples of prior art so surely this must be a conflict of interest. If Apple win it strengthens his defence should his patents get attacked.

I know I posted this link before and someone else has also posted this link but it is well worth reading. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390. He backs up his analysis with sources and if you read his other articles he backs them up with court documents.

I do not think anybody was biased more than any individual is biased but I do think that mistakes were made throughout and it needs to be looked at.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
22,044
875
126
I wish apple sued samsung for including white earbuds with the sgs3. The buds a pretty good but I dont use them because I dont want people to think I use a douchey iphone.
 
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akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,551
136
I am not suggesting the Judge or the jury are biased. I am saying that they did a poor job.

I can agree with your reasoning. However, look at the thread, there are a lot of people who are not just suggesting bias, but outright saying the judge and jury is biased. Not everyone, but certainly some very vocal voices saying it.

Yes Samsung's lawyers were late with a very important piece of evidence and the system you have in place means that it cannot be shown but the problem with that is you do not see the whole picture so how can the jury possible come to a fair conclusion when they have incomplete data?
Agree with it or not, there has to be some limitations or it'd be more of a circus than it already is as evidenced by the judge asking if Apple's lawyers were smoking crack saying they had 20 more witnesses. Hell, we'd still be in the discovery phase and likely would be until the end of the year.

What should have happened is this. 1) The judge should have allowed the evidence,
See above response. There has to be reasonable limitations in any court case and part of that is limiting the time frame for certain parts of the lawsuit process. One of the checks and balances is that Samsung can appeal the decision and present said new evidence.

2) Apple should have been given time to look at the evidence,
I believe Samsung also had some evidence rejected specifically because they produced the evidence at the last minute and didn't give Apple enough time to look at it...

3) Samsung should have had the costs of this delay added to their bill (both Apples costs and the courts costs). Their lawyers made a mistake and Samsung should pay for it but with a case this important not allowing evidence on a technicality should only apply if it is not relevant to the case.
Again, Samsung's lawyers screwed up. They know what the rules in court are presumably. They're billing their client multiple hundreds of dollars per hour per person after all. Neither the court, the potential jury, nor Apple should have to pay for Samsung dragging their feet.

And again, Samsung can still appeal the decision. That's part of the checks and balances.

The jury also made mistakes. They talked about prior art but then skipped over it because it was taking them too long. That means they did not test validity and just assumed the patents were valid.

They made mistakes in awarding damages to devices they had said did not infringe. Now had they spent more time deliberating then these mistakes could be attributed to fatigue but in this case they were so quick it really makes you wonder how much thought they put into the the figures they were throwing around.

They ignored jury instruction 35 in part and 53 (they were the same because it was obviously important). It states that the damages should not punish the infringer but should just compensate the patent holder. The foreman admitted that they wanted the damages to be sufficiently high to be painful.
Agreed. This is probably the biggest reason, and not because of inadmissible evidence that Samsung is getting another shot at this. I was very very surprised at the quick decision. I wouldn't have expected any verdict until at least another week.

Finally the foreman holds patents that are just as vague and also have examples of prior art so surely this must be a conflict of interest. If Apple win it strengthens his defence should his patents get attacked.

Actually no. Unless you can prove he is specifically biased for or against Apple or Samsung, there is no conflict of interest. His experience can actually make him a better jury member. The assumption would be that he can make a better informed decision on a patent case.

I know I posted this link before and someone else has also posted this link but it is well worth reading. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390. He backs up his analysis with sources and if you read his other articles he backs them up with court documents.

I do not think anybody was biased more than any individual is biased but I do think that mistakes were made throughout and it needs to be looked at.
My own feeling is the jury may have been hasty in their decision. It is a very valid argument in favor of them violating procedures.

As I've said, I think most of Apple's design UI patents should be thrown out but I still think Apple has a valid case in terms of Trade Dress. Too much evidence on that front and anyone who claims any shred of being unbiased can see that.
 

abaez

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
7,155
1
81
Do you honestly understand the abstract? You aren't a patent law officer nor a lawyer for that matter. According to your article apple acquired finger works in 2005, so apple has been working on gestural inputs before a lot of the competition. What's the point of convincing me? You're better off convincing the judge or jury.

Except that the jury will skip the whole prior art question because it bogs them down:

After we debated that first patent — what was prior art — because we had a hard time believing there was no prior art, that there wasn't something out there before Apple. In fact we skipped that one so we could go on faster. It was bogging us down.
 
Feb 19, 2001
20,155
23
81
Yeah, the Droid X is the most sluggish Android phone I've had the misfortune of using. Besides, it only had a single core 1GHz processor and 512 MB of memory.

the thing is at its time of release the iPhone it had superior hardware to the iPhone 3GS and 4 yet both phones seemed to run circles around it.

fact is Android just requires more resources. 1ghz and 512mb might be like butter on iOS but it's slow as fvck on Android. If you're using anything less than quad and you complain about lag here, people will tell you to get an S3. Just wait til people complain that's slow. The only solution will be to go octo.

All the proof that's needed is the fact that she's already ruled in Apple's favor in other cases. In fact, she's been involved with 19 patent cases with Apple. She's the one who actually blocked the sale of the GNexus, claiming it looks just like an iPhone. (Which is absurd).
The GNex was blocked for unified search issues. From the ruling:

The Court is persuaded by the evidence in the record that the '604 unified search functionality drives consumer demand in a way that affects substantial market share. Even accepting Samsung's argument that the intelligent voice-recognition aspect of Siri, as advertised, also contributes to consumer interest in the iPhone 4S, Apple has shown that the '604 Patented feature is core to Siri's functionality and is thus a but-for driver of demand for Siri. Accordingly, the Court finds that Apple has adequately established the requisite causal nexus between Samsung's alleged infringement of the '604 Patent and Apple's risk of suffering irreparable harm.

Your attempts to say that the lawsuit is about people mixing up GNexes for iPhone 4Ses are ridiculous. Your accusations are now mere troll attempts because that's NOT what's going on. You like to dumb these arguments down to slander Apple but really what good are you doing? Please debate these things in a fair and logical manner. It's a pure straw man argument you're making about the Nexus just looking like an iPhone.
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,922
3,714
136
Again, Samsung's lawyers screwed up. They know what the rules in court are presumably. They're billing their client multiple hundreds of dollars per hour per person after all. Neither the court, the potential jury, nor Apple should have to pay for Samsung dragging their feet.

That is why I said Samsung should have to pay the costs of the delay that the late submission of evidence would cause. They should pay both Apple and the court because as you have correctly stated Samsung's lawyers screwed up and they should pay for the mistake. I just feel that in a case that is this important with this many issues that the best way to get a fair outcome is to give the jury all of the relevant evidence so they make a more informed decision.

Actually no. Unless you can prove he is specifically biased for or against Apple or Samsung, there is no conflict of interest. His experience can actually make him a better jury member. The assumption would be that he can make a better informed decision on a patent case.

I think I was a bit strong with that point. I was merely trying to say that it is something to look at but I was rushing my post and I worded that part too strongly.

As I've said, I think most of Apple's design UI patents should be thrown out but I still think Apple has a valid case in terms of Trade Dress. Too much evidence on that front and anyone who claims any shred of being unbiased can see that.

I think the trade dress really only affects the Galaxy S (i9000) when compared to the iPhone, iPhone3g and iPhone3gs. They have similar icons and they have a similar appearance from the front although side on there is a substantial difference because of the bump at the bottom of the Galaxy.

The later Samsung phones made changes to the icon appearance removing the square background in most cases. I would say that iPhone 4 and 4s are not that similar to the Galaxy S2 in those regards.
 
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Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
22,044
875
126
I think the only copying was on the tmobile vibrant. That thing was a blatant copy of the hideous 3gs. For that samsung deserves a smack upside the head.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
All the proof that's needed is the fact that she's already ruled in Apple's favor in other cases. In fact, she's been involved with 19 patent cases with Apple. She's the one who actually blocked the sale of the GNexus, claiming it looks just like an iPhone. (Which is absurd).

Cases this important, with so much at stake for the consumer, should be tried in different venues so as not to even look as crooked as this does. If Apple is so in the right, then what's the problem for them? Could it be the fact that when they're not on their home turf, with their 19 time sure-thing, they tend to get these cases thrown out of court?

Where have Apple's cases been thrown out ?
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
All the proof that's needed is the fact that she's already ruled in Apple's favor in other cases. In fact, she's been involved with 19 patent cases with Apple. She's the one who actually blocked the sale of the GNexus, claiming it looks just like an iPhone. (Which is absurd).

Cases this important, with so much at stake for the consumer, should be tried in different venues so as not to even look as crooked as this does. If Apple is so in the right, then what's the problem for them? Could it be the fact that when they're not on their home turf, with their 19 time sure-thing, they tend to get these cases thrown out of court?

So you are saying once a party appears before a judge, they should never appear before the same judge again. What happens when we quickly run out of judges?

Did you know that in situations like this they intentionally send the case to a judge that is familiar with the parties involved? It's to save time.

I wonder if you would feel the same way if Samsung had appeared before this judge 19 times as you have claimed Apple has. Have you even researched Samsung's court appearances in Santa Clara? Which judges have they appeared in front of?
 
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ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
Except that the jury will skip the whole prior art question because it bogs them down:

Obviously the prior art that was shown wasn't substantially similar enough to warrant a discussion or Samsung didn't prove it well enough. Which is why they skipped it.
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,922
3,714
136
Obviously the prior art that was shown wasn't substantially similar enough to warrant a discussion or Samsung didn't prove it well enough. Which is why they skipped it.

One of the jurors admitted in an interview that they skipped prior art because it was slowing them down.
 
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