Are you watching Greece implode?

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StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Yeah, that´s total external debt (private and public) and not government debt, so it doesn't mean much. Only shows that places like Ireland and Great Britain recieve a lot of foreign investment, and that people borrow from banks in other countries.
So if I borrow $15M from you and you're in another country it's part of that but I used it to build a manufacturing facility so it's an investment with a returning profit (hopefully). Contrast with government debt that is less an investment and more a cost of living-maintaining credit card.

If that's accurate then government debt is more meaningful although again more meaningful would be what % of that gov debt is owed to citizens vs external, so then the most meaningful figure is how much is your public external debt.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
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Looks like the public sector unions are intent to trash their country instead of accepting some cuts in order for their country to pay its bills:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.5b6a37fcdd25faa823b7f90e1a8417b5.2e1&show_article=1

Greek tax collectors and customs officers walked off the job on Thursday, kicking off a spate of strikes against government austerity cuts designed to halt a financial crisis caused by massive debt.

Both groups embarked on a two-day walkout ahead of industrial action called by civil servants, doctors and Communist-backed workers on February 10 and a general strike called by Greece's main umbrella union on February 24.

"We have already made sacrifices and will accept no more cuts," the chairman of the customs officers' union Argyris Sakellaropoulos told Flash Radio.

The unions are on the warpath over a government austerity programme that they say has progressively become harsher under pressure from the European Union and market speculation that has hurt Greek finances and rattled the euro.


Who cares if the country is imploding? The unions will accept nothing less than increases in wages, pensions and vacation time while the rest of the country is making drastic cuts due to a true economic crisis!

There was also another article I saw earlier about how Greece has the largest percentage of unionized workers in the world, and how their union pay, benefit and pension payouts are by far the largest drain on the Greek budget, but I can't find that article any more...
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Actually Ryan it makes perfect sense. Half of the way I look at the world is through the tragedy of the commons paradigm and yet again it's in FTW. Although each of these unions influence the federal budget, only in the most unusual of circumstances could a single one making concessions be the actual make or break. For the most part if a given union bends over or bitches and complains and doesn't bend over it won't matter. Only by a large number of them making concessions do things get better. So, if each is negotiating only for itself and it can cause enough of a hassle to not have to take much of a hit it will keep its money and benefits and as long as the others make sufficient allowances the budget can be repaired.

So, although all of them acting like cry babies will bring the nation to its knees the impact of a single union acting like a baby or an adult won't really make much difference.
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
Actually Ryan it makes perfect sense. Half of the way I look at the world is through the tragedy of the commons paradigm and yet again it's in FTW. Although each of these unions influence the federal budget, only in the most unusual of circumstances could a single one making concessions be the actual make or break. For the most part if a given union bends over or bitches and complains and doesn't bend over it won't matter. Only by a large number of them making concessions do things get better. So, if each is negotiating only for itself and it can cause enough of a hassle to not have to take much of a hit it will keep its money and benefits and as long as the others make sufficient allowances the budget can be repaired.

Except for the fact that these unions are the biggest drain on the Greek budget. I really wish I could find that article...maybe I'll do some searches for it, but meh.

So, although all of them acting like cry babies will bring the nation to its knees the impact of a single union acting like a baby or an adult won't really make much difference.

It will when it's the largest union(s) in the country. Which is exactly what is happening. From the article I linked:

"Greece's largest union with around 600,000 members, GSEE is expected to approve Panagopoulos' call for a February 24 general strike later Thursday."

Sixth paragraph down, right after the stuff I originally quoted.
 

PricklyPete

Lifer
Sep 17, 2002
14,582
162
106
Can't they just open a few Greek restaurants and their money woes will go away?

In all seriousness, this is pretty messy. I can imagine countries like Germany wondering what they created now that things like this that are somewhat out of their control is directly affecting their economy.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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Greece's largest union with around 600,000 members, GSEE is expected to approve Panagopoulos' call for a February 24 general strike later Thursday.
This adds an interesting variable. In a country of 11.5M people 5% are in the same union. The problem with unions is once they get to big they ARE the "enemy", right? If they got big enough they'd basically be arguing with themselves.

Greece exceeds the "European Union limit" of 3% GDP on deficit. What does that limit mean; are there any consequences? They've been above it for a long time. Is it another toothless standard?
 

RyanPaulShaffer

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2005
3,434
1
0
This adds an interesting variable. In a country of 11.5M people 5% are in the same union. The problem with unions is once they get to big they ARE the "enemy", right? If they got big enough they'd basically be arguing with themselves.

Greece exceeds the "European Union limit" of 3% GDP on deficit. What does that limit mean; are there any consequences? They've been above it for a long time. Is it another toothless standard?

I'm not on the up and up with the intricacies of EU policy, but you pose some interesting questions.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Greece exceeds the "European Union limit" of 3% GDP on deficit. What does that limit mean; are there any consequences? They've been above it for a long time. Is it another toothless standard?
http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-bu...VkZXVyb3A-?sec=topStories&pos=6&asset=&ccode=
Europe's Growth and Stability Pact, which sets the rules for euro membership, limits the size of budget deficits. It was supposed to prevent such problems. But it was largely toothless, especially after Germany and France found it convenient to violate its terms when it suited their economic needs
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,153
0
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I spoke with someone I work with who immigrated from Greece a few years back. He says that when they had the Olympics there in 2004, they didn't have the infrustructure for it, and they spent billions to build it up, which is a lot of money for country that size. They apparently expected that they would make it up from tourist revenues, but it didn't even come close, and the government has been in massive debt ever since. He also said the current government is corrupt and/or incompetent.

- wolf
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,838
4,410
126
They apparently expected that they would make it up from tourist revenues, but it didn't even come close, and the government has been in massive debt ever since.
If my memory is correct, only one Olympics in the last few decades ever turned a profit, and the vast majority of the rest were dismal money losses. The concept is really dumb: build a bunch of very expensive one time use buildings and hope to turn a profit in 2 weeks of use.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,390
8,547
126
If my memory is correct, only one Olympics in the last few decades ever turned a profit, and the vast majority of the rest were dismal money losses. The concept is really dumb: build a bunch of very expensive one time use buildings and hope to turn a profit in 2 weeks of use.

same as hosting a superbowl, really.

i know the olympic stadium in atlanta is now the home of the braves, and isn't the olympic village usually opened up as a project afterward? not that projects make money, but that's hardly the point.



that loss is a good reason why houston should be in the running, we've got new stadiums already. we've even got a velodrome already.
 
Oct 30, 2004
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oh yea it is. we're fucked and getting raped with taxes. worse part is, we get nothing back. the NHS sucks ass, our roads are crappy and for a supposedly 1st world country talking about achieving a target of 2mbit broadband speeds as a min by 2012 is pathetic!

What do you propose the UK do to improve the NHS? Do you think it would be good to scrap the NHS and adopt the American health care system? What do most Brits think about the American system?
 

tommo123

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2005
2,617
48
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honestly? i don't know. mostly what i know about your side of the pond comes from Jon Stewart
 
Jun 26, 2007
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Greek...9.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=



Customs are going to strike 48 hours which will lock up imports other than fuel and drugs. Truckers have been choking off the border for a few weeks, too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...re-but-for-the-grace-of-God-goes-Britain.html



Some are saying Greece is in a debt spiral now and has reached that critical point at which they cannot get out, the only proper way out a gift--not a new loan--of money to relieve some of this debt.

I don't know the details of the "austerity plan" beyond what has been said in these articles but a fuel tax, public servant pay freezes, and expanding retirement age to me sound like very practical and fair ways to deal with an imploding economy.

The US is not Greece but parallels will be drawn, though even if valid I think many will ignore them.

Greece is a shithole of a nation, if not for tourism it wouldn't have had the money to keep a government living in wealth.

When times get tough, vacations are suspended and that is Greeces biggest income, if not for the EU it'd be a third world nation, it's like the Brazil of the EU, that includes the political past too.

Parallels will only be drawn by those who are completely ignorant about both nations.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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What do you propose the UK do to improve the NHS? Do you think it would be good to scrap the NHS and adopt the American health care system? What do most Brits think about the American system?

The US already pays more per capita for their system (taxpayer money, all in all, about 15-35x as much) so that would be a retarded option, what needs to be done is to provide more of the same.

Yeah, i know it sounds retarded to all you twats who listen to soundbites and deem them as wrong but more of the private sector publically financed hospitals is more of the same.

We'll be kicking Brown out soon and get our collective face out of US's arse soon.

I'd rather vote for a Tory than for the likes of Blair or Brown, who are just puppets to the US.
 
Last edited:

lsquare

Senior member
Jan 30, 2009
748
1
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Greece has overspent like much of the rest of the world in the last couple of decades. Greece was just one of the worst cases of overextended government without properly taxing to pay for it. I think the Economist said that they have one of the highest government employee / civilian employee ratios (I'm too lazy to look it up now).

Greece wants to cut back spending and just at the exact same time the farmers and other workers decide that they want MORE protectionism and entitlements from government. The farmers are blocking roads with farm equipment. The truckers and customs are blocking imports. Basically the Greece population is going to destroy their economy in an attempt to preserve and in fact worsen the unsustainable overspending.

Europe is in negotiations to bail out Greece. I'm just wondering if it is too little, too late, because Europe can't really afford the bailout in this recession.

I don't think the EU will bail out Greece. It sets a dangerous precedent in the Eurozone. If Greece gets bailed out, then surely Portugal, Ireland, and Spain will lineup and get assistance as well. Also, all Eurozone members cannot have a deficit of higher than 3% of GDP. If a bailout happens, then no Eurozone member will ever adhere to such a rule in the future. The credibility of the Euro will be destroyed. This is why every member of the Eurozone is concerned about the financial situation in Greece.

I'm not sure if the Economist said this or another major publication said it, but I think there is some truth to democray being incompatible with sound finance. Clearly it seems like Greece is trying to solve the mess, but its citizens doesn't seem to care otherwise. They would rather take care of themselves than take care of their country's long term interests.
 

lsquare

Senior member
Jan 30, 2009
748
1
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I think that's fair, but the US also has the advantage of being a world-power. We may be broke, but our govt probably has a few more tricks up its sleave than greece

You're wrong. The US may have more options, but it's not because it's a world power, but rather it controls its own currency (US Dollar). Hence, the government can raise or lower interest rates and or print more money to resolve any economic problems, which it has during this recession.
 

lsquare

Senior member
Jan 30, 2009
748
1
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Debt per capita

UK $172k
US $41k
Greece 35k

How come the UK isn't being singled out?

Where did you get those figures from?

Either way, Greece cannot be compared to the US for many reasons. First, the US have a much bigger economy and controls its own currency. As a result, it controls its own monetary policy. Greece doesn't control the Euro and it cannot lower interest rates or print more money to stimulate its own economy.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
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This is bad news for America and China. When Europe or the world is in trouble, the dollar rises and we become less competitive.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,326
6,650
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This is bad news for America and China. When Europe or the world is in trouble, the dollar rises and we become less competitive.

Maybe you become less competative but I can buy lots more shit for less.
 
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