The worry is that it will lead the other PIGS to fall since they're not in great shape either.
The worry is that it will lead the other PIGS to fall since they're not in great shape either.
This is a complicated situation and somewhat frightening. To Bail Out or not? What we see in Greece is what could have been the situation in the US recently (within the last 2 years)and in fact was exactly the case. You now have Greeks acting Irrationally and clashing with the Police, a relatively stable Democracy flirting with Self Destruction. Ironically the causes(Taxes and Economy) are fairly similar to the US Tea Party concerns, although more extreme and in the Tea Party's defense it is more concerned with avoiding the Greek situation, albeit not actually being inspired by the Greek situation. Greece has merely conveniently occurred showing the precariousness of National Debt/Deficit and how it relates to Economy.
What is causing the Greek irrationality? A crappy Reality. That being the convergence of Bad Economic Times with past Bad Fiscal/Economic Policy that now puts the National Economy at risk of total collapse. Now to avoid Bankruptcy the Government has to implement Austere measures and a combination of drastic Cuts in Services/Programs and drastic Increases in Taxes. It's a double whammy that would piss any Sane person off. However, that's the Reality of it and there's nothing the Greek Government can do about it now. They certainly could have avoided it, but that possibility passed by Years ago.
Should Greece be Bailed out? I think, Yes. Not just to help Greece stabilize and deal with Domestic upheaval, but also because(as noted in Thread)there's a line up of other Nations heading toward the same fate. It's one thing to have 1 Nation Fail and possibly descend into violence, but quite another to have a half dozen or so likely joining into that as well. We're not discussing inconsequential Nations here(sorry for the terminology) either, but some of the Wealthier Nations of the World whose Meltdowns ultimately spread beyond their Borders. We've been down this path before and as we learned it leads to things such as Communism and Fascism when People have become desperate enough.
It may seem expensive and I'm sure many will cling to their Black/White views regarding it, but we all know that eventually the Economy will recover and that we can get past these difficulties, in fact that seems one of the prime reasons some people would oppose Bailout. So my point is, since that's the case, it's best to smooth over potential situations that can bring the Global Economy Down, if the ability to do so exists. Let them get by for now and when the danger has passed, they'll be better able to correct their situation.
So why not kick Greece out of the Euro currency until they get their act together?
Surely, that's better than bailing them out which could lead to high inflation and further weaking Euro's standing with the dollar.
Brazil has come a long way since they declared bankruptcy in the 90's.
You think bailing out Greece will resolve its economic woes? The country ain't just having debt problems, but also problems competing in the international markets. If it wasn't for the fact that Greece was in the Euro or the other members of the PIGS, then it would have been much easier for the EU to say no to Greece.
Even if a bailout is given to Greece, the country still has to address its competitiveness at home. Salaries will need to decrease. State benefits will need to scale back. Sales tax will need to go up to cover a decrease in taxes. Tax evasion will need to be addressed. The irony from all of this is that just as Greece needs to implement its austerity program even though it's in recession, what will give the economy the jolt it badly needs? As we have all seen and learned from this great recession is that government intervention is badly needed to stop the economy from completely collapsing. The woes for Greece has only begun. This crisis will last for years to come. Greece doesn't have the luxury of Canada, the US, or even the UK in reevaluating its currency. Greece is going to be in pain for the long run.
There is much money invested in greece as well. If Greece where to be expelled from the EU, not only will Greece not be able to solve it's issues. But a very large amount (x amount * 10 billion euro's) will be lost. Another point is that while Greece is still in the EU, theoretically the EU can enforce anything on Greece. Especially after a bail out. In my personal opinion, a lot of countries where allowed to join a bit to fast. Numerous scandals has risen the last few years from the same countries that now have so much deficits. The quality of exported food(the amount of legal and illegal pesticides found for example from food produced by in Greece but also from Portugal , Spain and Italy) is much lower. Yet because of the freemarket principle of competition these countries where allowed to sell lower quality products while enforcing the better quality producing countries to produce less or the same amount with less profit's. And thus lowering overall quality in the end.
There are really some disturbed principles of competition in the EU. Even at the company where i work we can see it in projects. I cannot go into to much details, but this is how it is : Instead of the end result being more efficient, the end result becomes of less quality and a lot more expensive because everybody needs to get a piece of the pie. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is done on a more local market and not on a "global" market. Distance is a good measurement of how efficient a free market can be. I wish i could go into more details, but for reasons i cannot. For free markets to work, the planet must be divided in sections. Bussiness in a section A can only cross the border when section B will benefit in the long term from section crossing this as well. By means of technology, by means educations. It must all be about rasing the standards of living. Because then, there will be more money to be made if done properly on the long run. In the EU the sections can be country borders and even state or province borders. This way local markets benefit more from the free market while not growing too big and in the process becoming to big and too slow to be able to properly respond to problematic situations. In effect, reducing the chance of serious errors by the use of a little bit of redundancy.
It seems to me there really are some strange rules in the EU to prevent the more developed countries to do what they are good at and as such to protect the countries like Greece.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8637270.stm
http://www.organic-europe.net/country_reports/greece/default.asp
Afcourse they will not. That is what i made clear. There is to much money going on. Besides, it is against the very principle of the EU.We need to be clear on this. Greece will not be expelled from the EU. The EU is the European Union and not every member is using the Euro. Only countries in the Euro Zone are using the Euro as a currency.
You just written what i wrote. EU laws, only work for EU countries. Besides, politics have a nasty side. Which if i am foreseeing correctly will become more apparent.The EU cannot just enforce anything on Greece. That's BS man. The EU cannot just create a new law or interpret existing laws unfairly against Greece. The EU's courts will however enforce existing laws not just against Greece, but also against any member that breaks the law.
The allegations are old allegations. Not something of today but still alive. The point is where did all the money go ? Every EU country has to account for where all the EU funds have been used for. Greece is it seems to me an agriculture.In regards to the allegations that you brought up, I'm not so sure whether it's true or not. Furthermore, it's not really an issue of concern at the moment. I think Greece has some bigger issues to worry about.
No, no importing of food. Very unwise. By the time food has traveled enough, it is rotten. Food must be grown locally when ever possible. It is good for the local economy and current technology is good enough to be able to grow what ever crop or vegetable or fruit is needed. Importing food is a managers thought. It seems cheaper, but overall it is more expensive in the long run.Well, the EU ain't even that efficient to begin with. Most of the EU budget is going to subsidize EU farmers. Europeans would be better off if they were to import their food since it'll be cheaper as a result of the savings from CAP. However, that can be said of Canada and the US as well. All of those farming subsidies are distorting the economy.
Afcourse they will not. That is what i made clear. There is to much money going on. Besides, it is against the very principle of the EU.
You just written what i wrote. EU laws, only work for EU countries. Besides, politics have a nasty side. Which if i am foreseeing correctly will become more apparent.
The allegations are old allegations. Not something of today but still alive. The point is where did all the money go ? Every EU country has to account for where all the EU funds have been used for. Greece is it seems to me an agriculture.
No, no importing of food. Very unwise. By the time food has traveled enough, it is rotten. Food must be grown locally when ever possible. It is good for the local economy and current technology is good enough to be able to grow what ever crop or vegetable or fruit is needed. Importing food is a managers thought. It seems cheaper, but overall it is more expensive in the long run.
Exporting and importing food like vegetables and fruit is done often in the EU. For example, the Netherlands exports it's food to Germany. Germany equivalents of wallmart sell it again in shops the Netherlands. While the dutch versions of wallmart buy and sell the same products in large amounts from countries like Greece, or Spain to mention a few. Pushing around money ? yes it is.
But the price keeps rising and the only way to provide the food cheap is to buy and sell in large amounts or by government funding. And pretty big percentages of those large amounts ends up as waste. And that is what i am talking about. Once you dig deep enough, all you do is laugh all day at the strange behaviour of man.
Perhaps that is a reason not to do it. If it is bailed out and then other nations are bailed out and eventually all of them are (because really all of them have been so far with huge government spending) you run out of places to turn.Should Greece be Bailed out? I think, Yes. Not just to help Greece stabilize and deal with Domestic upheaval, but also because(as noted in Thread)there's a line up of other Nations heading toward the same fate.
I'd like to ask how long it's taken Japan to recover from its commercial real-estate mess. Was it not less severe than what Greece is going through? A different situation but they have still not recovered. These countries need to get it through their thick fvcking skulls that you cannot have vast government safety nets and pensions and working 3 hours/week for 2 years and then retiring and it all works out. I mean it's just total rubbish.News just broke out that the IMF fears that it'll take 10-years for Greece to recover from this mess.
Perhaps that is a reason not to do it. If it is bailed out and then other nations are bailed out and eventually all of them are (because really all of them have been so far with huge government spending) you run out of places to turn.
Whether it should or shouldn't be, if it isn't there is some learning lesson here for others, I think. As things get worse there it should be held up as an example to the rest of us who are going in the same direction even if we're not as far along.
One problem with bailing them out now is that they have NOT learned their lesson. The general population there backs a lot of these measures but many don't, particularly the unions and government employees. They are fighting tooth and nail trying to be the last one to fold. This is expected how they would act and I'd do the same in their place but Greek as a whole has not put in sufficient austerity. If they did and it was truly severe and then they were still in need of money it would be at least as far as I'm concerned, easier to give. At this point they still seem a bit like a kid who cranked up his credit card and is looking to mommy and daddy but hasn't stopped using it in the meantime.
To bail out Greece now is just kicking the can down the road, not just for Greece but for other nations close to its predicament who see salvation and thus will not take further painful steps to avoid requiring bailout.
I'd like to ask how long it's taken Japan to recover from its commercial real-estate mess. Was it not less severe than what Greece is going through? A different situation but they have still not recovered. These countries need to get it through their thick fvcking skulls that you cannot have vast government safety nets and pensions and working 3 hours/week for 2 years and then retiring and it all works out. I mean it's just total rubbish.
That is a matter of opinion, we can go on for days like this or we could just agree we agree on that Greece will not be expelled, take your pick. As such...No, you should re-read what you have typed. It creates the impression that they will so hence why I responded the way that I did.
Read my comments above.
Not my fault you are one of those people who act first and think later.Honestly I'm not really sure what you're trying to convey here. No offence, but it seems like as if I'm reading something written by a 10 year old. Your writing is all over the place. Assuming I understand what you have typed, you're wrong because you have failed to take wages and currency into consideration. The price of an item is determined by more than distance alone.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/opinion/28iht-edbuhrow.html?ref=global
I just read that article today and I totally agree with the author. I'm not European nor German, but I agree that it's unfair that fingers are being pointed at Germany and accusations of it being intransigent. Give them a fucking break here. Why should Germany be expected to cover any major bailout for irresponsible countries like Greece? Again, if Greece is bailed out, what about Spain, Portugal, and etc.? Enough is enough here. It sickens me when people accuse Germany of being selfish or bring up the past against Germany. They've done their fair share if not more for Europe. I honestly do believe that Germany has been one of the major participants in this European project.
The Greeks are retarded and I say this again and again because it's true. Their country's finances are fucked up. Even if the Germans agree to a bailout (most likely going to happen given the immense pressure not just from the EU, but also the US), what kind of measures would be put in place to prevent another crisis like this from happening again? Is Germany ever going to get its money back with interest? Greece not only has implement massive fiscal austerity measures, but they also need to do more to go after the tax evaders.
I was an exchange student in Germany. Germans are for the most part very kind people who are well aware of their dark past and they take responsibility for what they had done as a people. I just forwarded this to some of my German friends. I don't know how their democracy works- I hope the Bundestag votes against the bailout.
Germany has had to cut back their retirement age because they know they don't have enough money, while Greek workers get to retire something like 6-7 years earlier than their German counterparts. Germany has nothing to gain from bailing out a shitty entitlement minded country like Greece.
Greece: maybe you can sell Cyprus to the Turks to pay your bills, fucking deadbeats. 2 problems solved.
True, Germans are very kind and intelligent people. Thinking of retirement age, since the bailout of the banks in the Netherlands the retirement age is being pushed up from 65 to 67 over the next 15 years. Starting from januari 1 2010.
From the Dutch perspective it would also seem like the Greeks shouldn't be able to retire until at least 67, right?
You think bailing out Greece will resolve its economic woes? ...
Perhaps that is a reason not to do it. If it is bailed out and then other nations are bailed out and eventually all of them are (because really all of them have been so far with huge government spending) you run out of places to turn.
Whether it should or shouldn't be, if it isn't there is some learning lesson here for others, I think. As things get worse there it should be held up as an example to the rest of us who are going in the same direction even if we're not as far along.
One problem with bailing them out now is that they have NOT learned their lesson. The general population there backs a lot of these measures but many don't, particularly the unions and government employees. They are fighting tooth and nail trying to be the last one to fold. This is expected how they would act and I'd do the same in their place but Greek as a whole has not put in sufficient austerity. If they did and it was truly severe and then they were still in need of money it would be at least as far as I'm concerned, easier to give. At this point they still seem a bit like a kid who cranked up his credit card and is looking to mommy and daddy but hasn't stopped using it in the meantime.
To bail out Greece now is just kicking the can down the road, not just for Greece but for other nations close to its predicament who see salvation and thus will not take further painful steps to avoid requiring bailout.
I'd like to ask how long it's taken Japan to recover from its commercial real-estate mess. Was it not less severe than what Greece is going through? A different situation but they have still not recovered. These countries need to get it through their thick fvcking skulls that you cannot have vast government safety nets and pensions and working 3 hours/week for 2 years and then retiring and it all works out. I mean it's just total rubbish.
Why i wrote about the banks ? I had my famous mental itch.
And look, as it turns out, Greece when joining the eu was using accountancy tricks similar as the banks used (remember goldman sachs, yep doing business with the Greeks for some valuta scam ? Look it up : Currency swap ...)
It all has something to do with a security bonds.
I do not no much about, only that it is a scam.
And that is why Greece will stay in the EU and they will get a Bailout.
If i understand correctly :
Because so many european banks, Germany has the most money involved in Greece, have bought Greek government bonds. And you know, all the countries that are next in line, have used the same trick. Greece has used the money obtained with the government bonds to mask the deficit.
The US banks also has many of these bonds.
If i am wrong , please correct me...
If anybody would like to explain how these financial scams work into detail, i am all ears... (I mean eyes)^_^.
EDIT:
Forgot to mention that these tricks are used in every "modern" country, for example Germany and the Netherlands are no different.
Sell a state owned company under the cloak of privatizing and free market.
Get a lot of money to spend in the now. Worry about how to pay back all the lease costs later...
And otherwise just raise the taxes again.
Enron style accounting.
Remember the dotcom bubble. I am really worried we might have another bubble.
I still have to read this, but i thought i might as well share it.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw=[3351,11459]
Why i wrote about the banks ? I had my famous mental itch.
And look, as it turns out, Greece when joining the eu was using accountancy tricks similar as the banks used (remember goldman sachs, yep doing business with the Greeks for some valuta scam ? Look it up : Currency swap ...)
It all has something to do with a security bonds.
I do not no much about, only that it is a scam.
And that is why Greece will stay in the EU and they will get a Bailout.
If i understand correctly :
Because so many european banks, Germany has the most money involved in Greece, have bought Greek government bonds. And you know, all the countries that are next in line, have used the same trick. Greece has used the money obtained with the government bonds to mask the deficit.
The US banks also has many of these bonds.
If i am wrong , please correct me...
If anybody would like to explain how these financial scams work into detail, i am all ears... (I mean eyes)^_^.
EDIT:
Forgot to mention that these tricks are used in every "modern" country, for example Germany and the Netherlands are no different.
Sell a state owned company under the cloak of privatizing and free market.
Get a lot of money to spend in the now. Worry about how to pay back all the lease costs later...
And otherwise just raise the taxes again.
Enron style accounting.
Remember the dotcom bubble. I am really worried we might have another bubble.
I still have to read this, but i thought i might as well share it.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/;kw=[3351,11459]
A few facts...
1.) Goldman didn't go to Greece...Greece was the one that went to Goldman asking how to hide their debt through accounting tricks, not the other way around.
Goldman bears no responsibility on the currency swap that took place. It was Greece's job to tell the EU/ECB but they didn't.
2.) France has the most to loose from a bankrupt Greece, not Germany as you mention.
3.) All countries use accounting tricks...Some(Greece) use it more so than others.
http://www.bloomberg.com/insight/debt-risk.html
I read about Goldman Sachs helping Greece mask their debt. I don't blame Goldmans Sachs. I think they've done way worse and they're a faceless corporation- they're out to maximize their profit. The Greeks turned to them and asked them how to mask their debt and GS gave them a solution. In the end it was the Greeks who betrayed the EU and they should be punished accordingly.
I agree with you about bankers. Many people (especially the people on the right) can't see why greedy bankers are in the same league as bank robbers.