Are you watching Greece implode?

[JEDI]

Greece accepts bailout deal:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/05/02/greece.bailout/index.html?hpt=T2

-Greece accepted bailout deal including austerity measures, finance minister says

-PM tries to rally Greece after protests over spending cuts to prevent economic collapse

-EU and IMF are demanding austerity measures in exchange for bailing out Greece

-Greece's credit rating has been slashed twice in the past two weeks

 

[StageLeft]

Greece accepts bailout deal:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/05/02/greece.bailout/index.html?hpt=T2

-Greece accepted bailout deal including austerity measures, finance minister says

-PM tries to rally Greece after protests over spending cuts to prevent economic collapse

-EU and IMF are demanding austerity measures in exchange for bailing out Greece

-Greece's credit rating has been slashed twice in the past two weeks

So the government has agreed.

The question is will the people? How many riots will happen now as those with excessive benefits fight tooth and nail to keep them?

 

[CPA]

So the government has agreed.

The question is will the people? How many riots will happen now as those with excessive benefits fight tooth and nail to keep them?

You know what the irony is in all of this: those same rioting people were once counted on for votes. Votes bought with the excessive benefits. Now those benefits are coming back to bite the government that handed them out to secure votes.

 

[yllus]

Here's a good article on what was agreed to, but I've only pasted the part that outlines what Greece is going to immediately eliminate. Sounds like they had it really good.

Greece seals massive rescue deal, outlines deep cuts and tax hikes

Mr. Papaconstantinou said savings worth 30-billion euros through 2012 would be achieved through public service and pension pay cuts, higher taxes and streamlining government.

Mr. Papaconstantinou said that annual holiday bonuses will be capped at 1,000 euros per year for civil servants and scrapped for those with gross monthly salaries over 3,000 euros. Pensioners' bonuses will also be capped at 800 euros and cancelled for those paid more than 2,500 euros. The cuts will not extend to the private sector, as had been widely feared.

Greeks receive their annual pay in 14 salaries, receiving extra at Christmas, Easter and for their summer vacations.

Taxes would also be increased, including further hikes on alcohol and tobacco. The top bracket of sales tax will rise from 21 per cent to 23 per cent.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Here's a good article on what was agreed to, but I've only pasted the part that outlines what Greece is going to immediately eliminate. Sounds like they had it really good.

Greece seals massive rescue deal, outlines deep cuts and tax hikes

Such huge amount of salary and 14 times a year. Strip them naked i say.

 

[EightySix Four]

I can pretty much gaurantee you that the people of Greece were and are, just like you and I. That they elected a Government(s) that fucked them,

Is what we are currently doing in America.

-John

The greek people do it to themselves just as much as the government "fucks" them.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704182004575055473233674214.html

15b Euro or $20.5b/year in tax evasion compared to the U.S's estimated $100b in tax evasion, but Greece's GDP is only 2.5% the size of the U.S's

Greek tax evasion as % of GDP: 6% or every Greek citizen avoids $1796 in taxes a year.
U.S tax evasion as % of GDP: .7% or every U.S. citizen avoids $321 in taxes a year.

 

[sandorski]

"Mr. Papaconstantinou"

Hmm, how much $ would they save by Reforming their excess use of letters in their Names?

 

[JS80]

Sweet. I should get rich now.

 

[lothar]

I agree on 1 and 3 with you. I do not blame goldman sachs, but the government of Greece. I just find it interesting that whenever a scam is going on, goldman sachs can be found close by.

On 2, the numbers and graph i have claim Germany will be the biggest creditor. Can you please explain why France would be hurt the most ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/30/greek-bailout-plan-almost-completed

"Among continental European banks, analysts at Evolution earlier this week calculated that Fortis, Dexia, CASA and Société Générale are most affected because of the value of their Greek debt holdings relative to their size.

According to Barclays Capital, meanwhile, UK banks account for only 3% of the exposure to Greek bonds, while data from the Bank for International Settlements shows that, at the end of 2009, Greece owed about $240bn (£160bn) overseas. Of this, France and Germany have the biggest exposures of $75bn and $45bn respectively."

a) Fortis is now owned by BNP Paribas, which is a French bank.
b) Dexia is a joint Belgian-French bank...The French government alone has a 5.7% stake in the bank, not including shares owned by employees, municipalities, private investors, and venture capitalists.
c) Societe General is a French bank.

 

[lothar]

Sweet. I should get rich now.

Are you shorting the Euro currency, European indexes, or did you buy Greek bonds?

 

[JS80]

are you shorting the euro currency, european indexes, or did you buy greek bonds?

nbg

 

[JS80]

Are you shorting the Euro currency, European indexes, or did you buy Greek bonds?

NBG + short EUR/USD to hedge

 

[nageov3t]

lol...

Greek Deputy Prime Minister Theodoros Pangalos has accused Germany of failing to compensate Greece for Nazi occupation during World War II.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8536862.stm

 

[StrangerGuy]

lol...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8536862.stm

Yet somehow Germany never complained about their enormous debt right after WW2...

 

[lsquare]

Not my fault you are one of those people who act first and think later.
First, currency has nothing to do with it. It happens in the EU and such all use the euro in my example. Which was the primary reason to stop loosing money on currency changes. Afcourse wages come into mind. But when looking at the total picture with all variables from the beginning of the end it does not matter if you buy cheap from abroad or seemingly a little less cheap at home. Transport, administration, wages, quality of the product, storage space, the value of the product itself. There has to be money made. It is the same amount, only there are a lot more in betweens who want a piece of the pie. In the end there is only a marginal amount of profit for a large amount of wasted products and time and material. The only way to keep making that marginal profit increasing is by increasing all steps. And thus a negative spiral is created. And such can be seen in the economy.

EDIT:
In all honesty, i should have mentioned more clearly that the dutch versions of wallmart and the German versions of wallmart are not the same company but competitors. If that is not clear, i do apologize for not making it more evident.

I always think before I write. Apparently you have problems conveying your thoughts concisely. Either English is not your first language or you just have terrible writing skills. You can even ask a kid on the street and they will tell you that your writing is all over the place. It's hard to make out what the hell you're trying to convey.

Of course currency has a role to play. How can you discount that? Why do you think third-world countries are so adamant that the US and EU stop subsidizing its agricultural industries? Have you ever taken a look at the value of those countries that wants to export more of their agricultural products to the EU or the US? Currency has a role and your failure to acknowledge it is frankly perplexing.

 

[lsquare]

I was an exchange student in Germany. Germans are for the most part very kind people who are well aware of their dark past and they take responsibility for what they had done as a people. I just forwarded this to some of my German friends. I don't know how their democracy works- I hope the Bundestag votes against the bailout.

Germany has had to cut back their retirement age because they know they don't have enough money, while Greek workers get to retire something like 6-7 years earlier than their German counterparts. Germany has nothing to gain from bailing out a shitty entitlement minded country like Greece.

Greece: maybe you can sell Cyprus to the Turks to pay your bills, fucking deadbeats. 2 problems solved.

It's not surprising that the Germans are against any bailout for Greece. The Greeks were stupid enough to think that if they were to get into trouble they would be bailed out. Of course they're going to bail out now because the alternatives are much worse than not bailing the Greeks out. If the Greeks were not part of the Euro, they wouldn't have such leverage.

Germany is no different from most of the industralized countries of the world. The workforce is shrinking and the population is aging fast. Something has to give here. Without a large workforce to subsidize the welfare state, benefits obviously would have to be cut back. The Germans understand this, but the Greeks don't. They seem to think that it's their god given rights to prosper regardless of the consequences to government finances.

Like I said before, I don't blame the Germans for their ill-will towards the Greeks. The Greeks obviously are not entitled to any prosperity if it's not something that's hard earned. Of course it would be wrong to put the blame on the current Greek government because it wasn't them who cause this mess. When this is all said and done, the people that were responsible for the mess should be held accountable for their actions.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Yet somehow Germany never complained about their enormous debt right after WW2...

The Greeks should also complain to the Turks for not compensating them enough for their occupation of Greece. Hahahaha

Germany owes them nothing.

 

[lsquare]

So the government has agreed.

The question is will the people? How many riots will happen now as those with excessive benefits fight tooth and nail to keep them?

The Greeks have no choice, but to accept whatever austerity measures necessary to save the finances of their country. The Greek government is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they listen to the people, but not to the EU and IMF, then they won't get their bailout money, which mean they'll default. If they accept the money, the unions and poorer people will suffer. There is no easy way out. The Greeks brought this mess upon themselves and now some people will pay the price. Thanks god it's not me and I'm glad I'm not Greek.

 

[lsquare]

You know what the irony is in all of this: those same rioting people were once counted on for votes. Votes bought with the excessive benefits. Now those benefits are coming back to bite the government that handed them out to secure votes.

Another reason why democracy ain't the perfect model of government. In countries like Greece, you'll have irresponsible politicians making ridiculous promises to the people in order to gain power. They put their interests ahead of the nation. As a result, this is why Greece ended up in the position that they're in. Should I feel sorry for them? Fuck no.

You need to get one thing right and that the current fiasco wasn't caused by the current Greek government. It's caused by the previous Greek administrations.

 

[nageov3t]

The Greeks have no choice, but to accept whatever austerity measures necessary to save the finances of their country. The Greek government is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they listen to the people, but not to the EU and IMF, then they won't get their bailout money, which mean they'll default. If they accept the money, the unions and poorer people will suffer. There is no easy way out. The Greeks brought this mess upon themselves and now some people will pay the price. Thanks god it's not me and I'm glad I'm not Greek.

couldn't they drop the euro in an attempt to avoid a deflation spiral?

 

[lsquare]

couldn't they drop the euro in an attempt to avoid a deflation spiral?

What about the banks that have lent money to the Greek government? A lot of banks have massive exposure to this mess. I don't think it's as easy as dumping the Euro and then things would become A-ok. The Greeks would also lose the advantages of being part of the Eurozone when the times are good.

I don't think deflation is an issue in Greece yet. Although, I would imagine that deflation will become an issue as economic growth continues to be negative.

 

[lothar]

NBG + short EUR/USD to hedge

You must have made a killing today.

 

[JEDI]

The Greeks have no choice, but to accept whatever austerity measures necessary to save the finances of their country. The Greek government is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they listen to the people, but not to the EU and IMF, then they won't get their bailout money, which mean they'll default. If they accept the money, the unions and poorer people will suffer. There is no easy way out. The Greeks brought this mess upon themselves and now some people will pay the price. Thanks god it's not me and I'm glad I'm not Greek.

what happens if Greece defaults?

heck, what was the aftermath when Russia defaulted 10yrs ago?

 

[Jaskalas]

what happens if Greece defaults?

heck, what was the aftermath when Russia defaulted 10yrs ago?

I do not believe it is some "default" that hurts so much as the people rioting in the streets.

The aftermath is violence as their people turn to eat each other.

 

[zephyrprime]

what happens if Greece defaults?

heck, what was the aftermath when Russia defaulted 10yrs ago?

If Greece defaults, we will probably have another liquidity freeze like we had in fall of 2008 except worse. If Greece defaults, the ECB will probably attempt to monetize a large portion of EU debt. The increase in sovereign debt would stabilize things for a while but will create even more instability in the system.

Ultimately, the US, EU, and Japan will have devalue and/or default. That is the only solution to problems like we are having.