ATI A Cheater

[reever]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Hilarious watching the FanATIcs go into spin mode. Where were you when all the crap was hitting the fan over the 51.75s? Oh wait it was Nvidia who was being accused of cheating lololololol

Nothing like watching Hypocrits in action.

And then of course you look at the situations, and realize some were much worse than others

 

Originally posted by: reever
Sorry it's not bitterness, it's just that ignorance and close-mindedness offends me

it's not me getting personally offended, but it is just annoying when people make comments that have been proven to be false time and time again, but whenever the opportunity comes where it is an issue again, keep bringing it up

I think I know what your talking about. I mean personally, I think any arguments about this garbage is just that, garbage.
I like talking about the latest and greatest harware out there whether it be Intel or AMD, Nv or ATI, Creative or Turtle Beach.
I dont like when it turns into some fantastic pissing contest. Its all about people feeling the need to justify what they purchased or intent on purchasing, and the " oh crap, did I buy the right piece of hardware? Or could I have done better.." The sad thing is, it wont stop. Ever. Insecurity purchases will always happen.
I used the 9700np for about 2 months and couldn't take the probs anymore. Did I regret my purchase of the 9700? Yeah somewhat. It really cranked when it worked though, but I just got tired of patches, tricks, updates, cleaners, formatting and the whole lot which I really did regret a great deal. So I took a chance with the 5900nu. I havent regretted it thus far except for the fact that I had to buy another card. Good card, no hassles as of yet.

So can we please stop this BS. Stop the "my card is better than your card" craziness. It's getting sooo old I cant bear it anymore.
Look at VIAN.. he uses a Voodoo card still. I'm not going to put words in his mouth but I will guess what he is thinking. He has a Voodoo and is looking to upgrade to the next level sometime soon. He doesn't know which to purchase. He knows Nvidia cheats so decides to look for an ATI card. Then finds out something to the effect that ATI cheats also. Either angry or feeling betrayed, he posts this thread which slanders ATI. Why... Who knows. I am probably wrong
and looking to deep into stuff.

Anyways, do you think we can just stop.

Thanks,
GM

EDIT
PS: Apologies for getting so cynical before and if I offended anyone. Wasn't my intention. Intention was to rant but got carried away.

GM

 

Originally posted by: Johnbear007

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
funny, a bunch of claims with absolutely no evedence to back them up. granted, i didnt really expect anything more from Lars.

Using Tom's as evidence is like using the enquirer or daily globe

Actually i'd believe in the Yeti or Aliens from those rags before I believed any of the pure crap spewing out of Tom's

I don't know about the Yeti, but this Universe is too damn big for us to be the only ones in it. Aliens should be a given.

 

[Insomniak]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
funny, a bunch of claims with absolutely no evedence to back them up. granted, i didnt really expect anything more from Lars.

Uh, did you even read the article? There are comparisons and proof of cheating right there...

 

[reever]

Originally posted by: Insomniak

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
funny, a bunch of claims with absolutely no evedence to back them up. granted, i didnt really expect anything more from Lars.

Uh, did you even read the article? There are comparisons and proof of cheating right there...

Where? I see 2 pictures, yet mention of 4-5 things, and then no further examination of those 2 pictures, or word from Ati or massive? It seems odd how it takes THG less than 6 hours to put a section on Ati cheats into an article, yet takes 6 months to create an article about Nvidias aquamark "bugs", and speaking of "bugs", weren't the problems with Nvidia never referred to as cheats on their site, yet the first sign of difference in ATI rendering its "omg cheatzors, cant be a bug"

 

[BFG10K]

Firstly, in that very same article:

Further irregularities allegedly concern Unreal Tournament 2003. Epic's Mark Rein confirmed that the ATi driver defaults to the standard low-res textures in some cases, even when the detailed high-res textures are selected. In the UT2003 screenshots we took for the anisotropic filtering quality comparison further down in the article, we were unable to perceive such an effect. Then again, the viewing angles in those scenes are not equivalent to those shown in NVIDIA's in-game scenario. We will investigate further and post our own screenshots shortly.

In Halo pixel-shader quality comparison screenshots, on the other hand, we could not corroborate any irregularities as alleged by Randy Pitchford.

Regarding the Aquamark issue, as Dave pointed the precision levels of the cards are different and thus a screenshot comparison might not be entirely valid. As for the trilinear AF, ATi have always done just the first mip-map for applications that don't specifically request AF themselves (i.e. it's driver forced).

 

[1ManArmY]

Stop wasting everybody's time and build the damn GFX cards. Take care of your own house!

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: 1ManArmY
Stop wasting everybody's time and build the damn GFX cards. Take care of your own house!

Yep, this whole see-saw battle of speed, image quality, and driver cheating is tired. To be honest I have to look closely to see the differences in those images and that's taking time to look at a single still frame. I seriously doubt anyone is going to notice going 60 FPS while getting shot at.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Hilarious watching the FanATIcs go into spin mode. Where were you when all the crap was hitting the fan over the 51.75s? Oh wait it was Nvidia who was being accused of cheating lololololol

Nothing like watching Hypocrits in action.

The only thing hilarious is the competition for who can use words like "FanATIc" the most.



Some people have no purpose except to instigate, instigate, instigate...

 

[Genx87]

Cry me a river

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Cry me a river

You a Justin Timberlake fan?

 

[chsh1ca]

Did everyone miss the fact that while THG ranted about 'cheats' and 'optimizations' they offered no proof that these were in fact, cheats or optimizations, let alone specific to Aquamark/UT2K3/etc.? I mean, when nVidia was caught cheating by a large margin last time round, it was tangibly impactful, and the proof was provided. This is guesswork based on two pieces of hardware that admittedly render things differently. Especially since one of them is DX-9 compliant and the other is not. If they were going to pick out ATI as being cheaters, why not mention the ~8% increase that was seen in a certain benchmark that ATI admitted was an app-specific optimization, which has since been fixed? This seems like trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

If they really think they're cheating, I wanna see the proof in the form of a tangible affect on frame rate when the effect in question can be isolated and tested independantly in the differing modes they believe it should be tested in.

More crap from Tom's it would seem.

 

[VIAN]

Not rendering images that aren't shown, doesn't matter to me.  But when an image is shown, I want it rendered like its supposed to be.  Cheating to me is lowering image quality to improve performance.  Therefore optimization should not mess with image settings at all unless it is to better the image quality, but rather finding ways to handle code more efficiently.  Other than that, I don't see how it could be done.

And what's wrong with Tom's hardware?  Why is Tom so bad?  I really want to know the answer to this since I heard this many times.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: gorillaman

I dont like when it turns into some fantastic pissing contest. Its all about people feeling the need to justify what they purchased...........


I used the 9700np for about 2 months and couldn't take the probs anymore. .................



So can we please stop this BS. Stop the "my card is better than your card" craziness. .................

__________________________________________________________________________________

I think the 9700 is a pretty good card that could be put to good use by somebody here. The P4P800 has known issues with early revisions of the 9700 (Poor design by Asus there). .:beer:

 

[Mem]

I think the 9700 is a pretty good card that could be put to good use by somebody here. The P4P800 has known issues with early revisions of the 9700 (Poor design by Asus there).

Using a 9700NP now in my VIA motherboard for about 4 months or so,all I can say that it has been excellent on stability,I have a GF2 Ti card in my backup pc and use that as the stability standard.


Always makes me laugh when I see all these Nvidia v ATi threads,do you guys have big shares in their stocks or something ,anyway I buy a video card on what I think is best value for money/performance for the price at the time,I`ve no loyalty to any particular brand .

As to cheating well this comes up all the time and I think it`ll probably come up again sooner or later,I guess you can argue most companies cheat in one way or another but some more then others,it won`t stop us buying video cards,in the end ATi and Nvidia are the only two big choices we have.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Mem
Always makes me laugh when I see all these Nvidia v ATi threads,do you guys have big shares in their stocks or something ,anyway I buy a video card on what I think is best value for money/performance for the price at the time,I`ve no loyalty to any particular brand.

^
|
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What Mem said!

 

[Mardeth]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: Mardeth
Define cheating.

I guess you missed my post?

What rules?

In my opinion you ask what cheating is not define it.

 

[Soulkeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Soulkeeper
looks like ati took it one step farther and decided to not render things to their full quality in an attempt to gain performance rather than just not rendering stuff you don't see

were is ati doing that?

just saying it looks like it can be that way and it wouldn't suprise me if it was

 

[Johnbear007]

Originally posted by: gorillaman

Originally posted by: reever
Sorry it's not bitterness, it's just that ignorance and close-mindedness offends me

it's not me getting personally offended, but it is just annoying when people make comments that have been proven to be false time and time again, but whenever the opportunity comes where it is an issue again, keep bringing it up

I think I know what your talking about. I mean personally, I think any arguments about this garbage is just that, garbage.
I like talking about the latest and greatest harware out there whether it be Intel or AMD, Nv or ATI, Creative or Turtle Beach.
I dont like when it turns into some fantastic pissing contest. Its all about people feeling the need to justify what they purchased or intent on purchasing, and the " oh crap, did I buy the right piece of hardware? Or could I have done better.." The sad thing is, it wont stop. Ever. Insecurity purchases will always happen.
I used the 9700np for about 2 months and couldn't take the probs anymore. Did I regret my purchase of the 9700? Yeah somewhat. It really cranked when it worked though, but I just got tired of patches, tricks, updates, cleaners, formatting and the whole lot which I really did regret a great deal. So I took a chance with the 5900nu. I havent regretted it thus far except for the fact that I had to buy another card. Good card, no hassles as of yet.

So can we please stop this BS. Stop the "my card is better than your card" craziness. It's getting sooo old I cant bear it anymore.
Look at VIAN.. he uses a Voodoo card still. I'm not going to put words in his mouth but I will guess what he is thinking. He has a Voodoo and is looking to upgrade to the next level sometime soon. He doesn't know which to purchase. He knows Nvidia cheats so decides to look for an ATI card. Then finds out something to the effect that ATI cheats also. Either angry or feeling betrayed, he posts this thread which slanders ATI. Why... Who knows. I am probably wrong
and looking to deep into stuff.

Anyways, do you think we can just stop.

Thanks,
GM

EDIT
PS: Apologies for getting so cynical before and if I offended anyone. Wasn't my intention. Intention was to rant but got carried away.

GM

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Soulkeeper

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Soulkeeper
looks like ati took it one step farther and decided to not render things to their full quality in an attempt to gain performance rather than just not rendering stuff you don't see

were is ati doing that?

just saying it looks like it can be that way and it wouldn't suprise me if it was

i am just asking where you think it "looks like it".

 

[rbV5]

It's clear and it's cut, Nvidia works and ATI does not... at least for now

VIAN, why even start these threads? Clearly the 9700 is not only working, its been working so well, that not a single cards that has been released since its debut has been able to make anything but "marginal" gains from its performance and yes stability. Anybody that doesn't see that is kidding themselves. Finally NVidia has cards that offer equal performance and stability, so there is a choice, and a good choice. The rest of this nonsense serves many purposes, its important to keep the manufacturers honest by exposing driver problems and such, but alot is simply "my dog is better than your dog". Totally understandable considering whats at stake, when it comes to money and reputations ect. but it is what it is.

Bottom line: There are great cards from both camps, but none is a leap above the now gracefully aging r300. You are not going to lose with either, and soon it may be a 3 way race...hopefully.

 

[Genx87]

You a Justin Timberlake fan?

Why? Do you want to sell my your collection of his CDs?

 

[Matthias99]

For everybody trashing Tom's Hardware about accusing ATI of cheating... NVIDIA's the one that levelled the accusations against ATI at their press event a few days ago. Tom's was trying to see if there was anything to them, and they confirmed the presence of a few inconsistencies in the AM3 rendering on the 9800 vs. the 5950. In all likelyhood, it's a bug, or an optimization gone awry (OMG, it's not rendering almost-transparent layered textures that you usually never see, and their fog is slightly dimmer ). But even if it is a "cheat", why hasn't anyone else in the last two months noticed or made anything of this until NVIDIA put it under a magnifying glass? And I've seen several reviews using AM3 to do IQ analysis...

And as far as the whole cheat/vs. optimization thing... if it draws exactly the same thing on the screen, then it's an optimization*. If it's degrading image quality without telling you, then it should be labeled a "cheat" unless there's some way to turn it off. Otherwise there's no fair way to benchmark the cards from both companies against each other.

However, anyone who thinks that both ATI and NVIDIA aren't both trying to squeeze every bit of performance out of their cards by doing game-specific optimizations is delusional. It's just that most of them either don't degrade IQ, or lower it so slightly that there's no effective change unless you look at screengrabs extremely closely.

*However, optimizations like this targeted only at benchmarking programs (like what NVIDIA was doing with 3DMark03 using culling planes to not draw parts of the scene you couldn't see, which wouldn't work in a real game) are generally considered "cheats". NVIDIA has said they will no longer implement optimizations that only target benchmarks.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: VIAN
And what's wrong with Tom's hardware? Why is Tom so bad? I really want to know the answer to this since I heard this many times.

Well, Tom lost credibility with the 3D crowd a while back, both because of (what appears to be) his flagrant narcissism and his hatred of 3dfx. Lars didn't endear himself to too many people when he reviewed the 5800U, and proclaimed it better than the 9700P (Lars also happened to run a site called RivaStation ). And THG's latest big roundup lamely used only three questionable benchmarks (the irrelevent Q3, the possibly nV-biased but otherwise irrelevent GunMetal, and UT2K3 with nV's brilinear hacks) to declare a regular 5600 as the best mainstream gaming card. But Lars has done pretty good work lately, with his Det 51.75 AM3 IQ investigation. I think his 5700U review was pretty good, though I'm uncomfortable that he repeated nV's accusations of IQ-cheating by ATi without even using AM3's many features to verify cheating (either comparing the screens to a refrast [reference rasterizer] image, or using the tool to color the shaders used on-screen).

I think these are some pretty hasty accusations, based on one article with incomplete analysis that officially drew no conclusion and was instigated by a competitor. The fact that nV's other accusation, that ATi cheats by not rendering detail textures in UT2K3, is shaky (particleman, on both the NVNews and [ H ] forums, showed that ATi can render detail textures correctly if you change two settings)--it may just be a bug, and Hardware.fr shows only a minimal performance reduction on the 9800XT if you enable detail textures by changing the ini settings.

But I'm waiting for Massive's response to Lars. I'm sure the IQ articles that every single site is preparing as a follow-up to their XT/5950/5700 reviews will also investigate the issue, so I'm not going to get worked up about this until I see more definitive proof. I'll admit that, in the overdraw pic Lars showed, it does look like ATi's image may be missing the lightest texture layer. I really can't say either way about the smoke screen. Remember, ATi and nV are rendering at different shader precisions, which may account for the differences. I think Lars' quick summary was incomplete without refrast images, though.

Edit - Bah, I keep forgetting the spaces around [ H ].

 

[Kungfu72]

Um, sorry, but after playing the PC port of Halo, Randy Pitchford is the last person I'd listen to about "game performance problems".