Ati Back on top again

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Killrose

Other than that it is no where the industry exciting card the 9700pro was. The 8800GT with its excellent price performance ratio has taken that crown.

I dont think its the same with the 8800GT card either. The GT is a remake of the same core, nothing new. While the GT has fantastic performance for the price, compared to the GTX/Ultra, its just not the same. The 9700 Pro was a "revolutionary" card. The first DX9 card, the first card where AA/AF were really useable in a decent resolution. So many more things too. On a stark contrast the 5800U was such a flop, and performance tanked with AA/AF. Not to mention it had subpar AA/AF quality compared to the Pro. The 9700 Pro was so much more of a card than its predecessor, the 8500. In every single way. There hasnt been a card of the 9700 Pro caliber since, in my opinion. But thats all it is, an opinion.

 

[BFG10K]

While I certainly won't get one, I think this card is really important for ATi, both in terms of performance milestones and also public perception.

 

[BFG10K]

There hasnt been a card of the 9700 Pro caliber since, in my opinion.

In my opinion the 8800 GTX easily equaled or even exceeded what the 9700 Pro did.

DX10, 4xAA usable in practically every game, 16xAA usable in most games, best AF available in consumer space, etc.

It's only real tarnish was lacking driver support.

 

[Ackmed]

Thats the beauty of opinions. I believe the 9700 Pro was such a huge leap over the 8500 and Ti4600 (5800U was late), and was overall such a superior card in every way. It gave you more than just DX9 in terms of new tech. DX9 caught on faster in games than DX10 too. But thats not fault of the GTX. The AA/AF frames for the Ti4600 were a joke. The 9700 Pro gave you playable frames at settings that were before unthinkable. The 8500 could atleast to "free" AF, but AA killed it. The GTX was/is a very nice card, just not the leap to me. SLI lowered the impact the GTX gave. Because you could use a 7950 or SLI'd 7900's. The GTX was still faster than those still, but if not for those, the impact of speed would have been even greater. If it went against only a 7900 and not SLI, it would have seemed like an even bigger monster of a card. The 9700 Pro didnt have that "problem". It went up against single cards from the last gen. To me, the 8800GTX is behind the 9700 Pro, but not all that far behind mind you. Obviously using the 9700 Pro for the first time was not like the first time I put in a Voodoo card, but in a second behind that. But you could ask 10 different people the same question (who actually used cards when they first came out) and you'd likely get a whole slew of different reasons/answers. As I said, just my opinion.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

Originally posted by: dileepsv
so..the 3870 X2 in a non-crossfire motherboard would work more efficiently and cool in comparison to 2x 3870 cards in CF?

yes, the 3870 will work in any motherboard with a pci x16 slot and will be more efficient and cool than 3870 in CF

and sorry mr admin. just got tired of all the bashing of anandtech in our own forums

 

[McCartney]

Apoppin name one way that test is skewed?

How don't you comprehend the fact that using a predetermined test allows a company to gain an edge. You feel that ignoring my comments about a benchmark that can be targetted as peak performance for the reviewers can't improve sales.

If I was making a video card that was less than stated, I too would focus my drivers on the benchmarks that are used (CANNED BENCHMARKS) to indicate higher performance than it really is. You really need to read all of my points before you answer half and think you've passed with flying colors.
50 percent.

 

[McCartney]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS

Originally posted by: dileepsv
so..the 3870 X2 in a non-crossfire motherboard would work more efficiently and cool in comparison to 2x 3870 cards in CF?

yes, the 3870 will work in any motherboard with a pci x16 slot and will be more efficient and cool than 3870 in CF

and sorry mr admin. just got tired of all the bashing of anandtech in our own forums

I could insult you much more based on your posts. It's quite humorous how much you break the bank eating pizza pops to upgrade your rig. Keep bolding your sig!

 

[McCartney]

pro-nvidia and HARDOCP?

Hey APoppin look at the reviews before you turn on your ignorance and "AT is superior complex"

http://www.hardocp.com/article...l?art=MTE0NCwxMiwsMTMw
http://www.hardocp.com/article...EzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
http://www.hardocp.com/article...ExLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
http://www.hardocp.com/article...EzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Oh yeah! ProNVIDIA because HardOCP has glowing reviews about all lines of ATI cards except the 2900 XT and 3870X2? Is that what you call an nvidia fansite? You're one of those people that do half your research and report on it apoppin... I suggest peer review

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: McCartney
Apoppin name one way that test is skewed?

How don't you comprehend the fact that using a predetermined test allows a company to gain an edge. You feel that ignoring my comments about a benchmark that can be targetted as peak performance for the reviewers can't improve sales.

The SAME benchmarks are run on both nVidia and ATI cards, so according to your theory NVidia ALSO gets an advantage because they can "optimize" as well (I hope you don't think nVidia doesn't do this as well). Sooo...if both companies have an advantage...what's your beef?

 

[McCartney]

Because nvidia didn't optimize for it. If the card is that much better why did the radeon fail in dynamic testing? If the FPS is as-advertised it shouldn't fluctuate largely

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: McCartney
Because nvidia didn't optimize for it. If the card is that much better why did the radeon fail in dynamic testing? If the FPS is as-advertised it shouldn't fluctuate largely

Didin't optimize for which benchmark? Do you honestly believe nVidia doesn't optimize for popular games such as Crysis and CoD4?

 

[McCartney]

Dude, you're not understanding thilan. You can be dominant in one portion of the video game and then be less so in the rest of it.

JUST because you have drivers for a certain game it doesn't mean they're complete. Just because you have the optimization for a game doesnt' mean it's completely optimized.

How hard is it to believe that ATI optimized a certain part of the game? Again you're misunderstanding what I'm saying or having a tough time wrapping your head around it-- You can have partial dominance.

IF Crysis and CoD4 is that much better on the 3870x2, then again, why does it LOSE in dynamic testing? That's not making sense. The Radeon 3870x2 dominates in one aspect but loses in the dynamic when you play it and the framerates should obviously change (somewhat)?

Obviously there's more to what ATI is doing, which is cheating since they can't replicate the performance in PLAYING CONDITIONS

 

[apoppin]

you're not understanding ... what you have posted is completely wrong. Good Benchmarks ARE *representative* of demanding parts of a videogame. And many video games have more than one benchmark - they can be taken from *anywhere*

the IMPORTANT thing is that they than be replicated ... confirmed

and i DO run benchmarks and also PLAY the game ... and i also see if FRAPS is confirming what i am experiencing
-i have run 7800GS-OC against 1950p and also extensively benchmarked 2900xt vs. 8800GTS-640OC for our forum and have come to a conclusion:
---IF AMD is cheating THEN so is nvidia ... it's called OPTIMIZING and is considered "legal"
-simple as that

Your only example of 'dynamic testing' that 3780x2 loses in, is at a disreputable site
-with tests that cannot be replicated and are at the MERCY of a reviewer's obvious bias whose judgment is clouded much like yours.
:thumbsdown:

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Maybe cos not many people have had to deal with dual GPU configs:

Crossfire/SLI are great when they work. They are infuriating when they don't. I'd much rather get an 8800GTS super duper clocked than an X2 vid card.

With the advent of advanced AA modes in this gen of cards, I don't see any reason for Crossfire unless you have a huge LCD.

I liked crossfire cos I did 14xSSAA on BF2. Needed 2x x1900 cards to do it. Now all I use is my 8800 GT and have a plethora of AA options.

 

[shadowofthesun]

McCartney, your points make little sense.

It's true that companies can optimize for built in benchmarks, because they are predictable. But what you fail to realize is that in several cases, Anand created his own benchmarks. These aren't benchmarks shipped with the game. These are benchmarks that are EASILY REPRODUCABLE without being predictable. What Kyle lacks is reproducability. While I think his reviewing of "playable settings" is nice, the lack of apples-to-apples comparisons, as well as the inability for any of us to confirm his results, make his benchmarks suceptible at best.

In the science world, theory is not considered fact until it can be reproduced. That is why millions of dollars are spent every year printing journals and organizing peer reviews (my father often peer reviews for many journals). When methodologies are purposely made vague, we have incidents like the South Korean cloning fiasco (the names escape me ATM). Science is made to be reproducable and should be easy to confirm. Benchmarks are made to perform much the same function.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

Originally posted by: Rollo
My thought is the 8800GTX is the only "9700Pro-esque" card since the 9700Pro. The 9700Pro had longevity, this card will be the fastest single slot card until the 9800GX2 launches (soon) and be trumped again in Q2 by the next gen cards if you can believe the rumors.

Being the fastest single slot card at some games for a month or two is not "9700 Pro like", IMHO.

I cant agree more about these 2 cards since I had a 9700 pro and now a GTX. It cant be coincidence that both the 9700 pro and the GTX have been the 2 cards I have kept the longest.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: McCartney
Dude, you're not understanding thilan. You can be dominant in one portion of the video game and then be less so in the rest of it.

---------------------------------------------------------
This applies to both ATI and Nvidia, yes?
---------------------------------------------------------

JUST because you have drivers for a certain game it doesn't mean they're complete. Just because you have the optimization for a game doesnt' mean it's completely optimized.

---------------------------------------------------------
This also applies to both ATI and Nvidia, yes?
---------------------------------------------------------

How hard is it to believe that ATI optimized a certain part of the game? Again you're misunderstanding what I'm saying or having a tough time wrapping your head around it-- You can have partial dominance.

---------------------------------------------------------
As does this.
---------------------------------------------------------

IF Crysis and CoD4 is that much better on the 3870x2, then again, why does it LOSE in dynamic testing? That's not making sense. The Radeon 3870x2 dominates in one aspect but loses in the dynamic when you play it and the framerates should obviously change (somewhat)?

---------------------------------------------------------
You said it yourself.
"You can be dominant in one portion of the video game and then be less so in the rest of it.".
Different architectures handle different rendering tasks in their own way.
---------------------------------------------------------

Obviously there's more to what ATI is doing, which is cheating since they can't replicate the performance in PLAYING CONDITIONS

---------------------------------------------------------
What's obvious, is that you cannot be relied upon to be objective. Someone who howls "cheater" the instant a long standing champion is bested (8800GTX) is plainly angry.
And they don't even know why.

If I were you, I would sit back and read any post you're about to make, three times.
While doing that, pretend you are somebody else who IS objective (if you can) and see how "out there" your post might be and how easily someone with a level head can come and knock it down.

 

[Blacklash]

I'd have to agree the 8800GTX is more like the 9700Pro than this card. I've owned a 8800GTX since they were first released. That card stunned me when I first started using it; incredible AF quality, brute power, and interesting flexible HQ AA modes. My sole complaint with the card was it idled in the mid to low 60s in a case with good air flow. I fixed that with a Thermalright HR-03 Plus.

 

[SniperDaws]

Originally posted by: WaTaGuMp

Originally posted by: Rollo
My thought is the 8800GTX is the only "9700Pro-esque" card since the 9700Pro. The 9700Pro had longevity, this card will be the fastest single slot card until the 9800GX2 launches (soon) and be trumped again in Q2 by the next gen cards if you can believe the rumors.

Being the fastest single slot card at some games for a month or two is not "9700 Pro like", IMHO.

I cant agree more about these 2 cards since I had a 9700 pro and now a GTX. It cant be coincidence that both the 9700 pro and the GTX have been the 2 cards I have kept the longest.

i had the 9700pro and didnt feel i needed to upgrade until the 8800GTX but i never got round to purchasing it because i thought it was a tad expensive, instead ive spent more money on mild mid range upgrades so ive spent more money than i would of if id of just bought the damn 8800GTX

 

[Tempered81]

i had a 9800 pro, a x1950xt , and now an 8800gt. my next card wont be anything thats coming out now... Unless the G100 or R700 is superkickass. I may buy the enthusiast version of that, assuming i still have a gaming pc to put it in

 

[Captante]

Originally posted by: jaredpace

Originally posted by: Red Storm
3870 X2 under $399.

Not everyone has an nVidia motherboard, so SLI is not an option for a lot of people. Single card solutions however, are.

HOLY!

$383.99 now ... while I'm not about to run out & replace my 8800GTX with one, at this price thats a great deal! :thumbsup:

 

[McCartney]

Okay, so what you're saying keys is that i'm right.
You don't address how the apples to apples comparison would work for the 3870x2.

Infact if you look at the HardOCP benchmarks you'll see the deck is usually stacked against the 8800 GTX yet it still wins.

It's YOUR members that insult HardOCP. Why?
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/...w0LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

In this CoD4 test I see the GTX being given a higher setting that demands more of the GPU which in turn would knock down the FPS... But it still wins.

Are you tellign me that 4x trms aa is less demanding than 2xaa?

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/...wzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Are you telling me that higher shader settings on the GTX with a higher framerate isn't apples to apples either? You're telling me that the 3870x2 being on medium shaders is unfair because it'll have playable framerates?
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/...w2LCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

Let me guess, this isn't apples to apples either right?

This is an absolutely biased thing to say. As far as this review is concerned I find it completely useful unlike use of canned benchmarks. If the card is that good why does the Radeon 3870x2 lose by more than reasonable doubt? You're telling me that basically one bomb exploding on the 3870 that may have not happened in game on the GTX affected an AVERAGE FPS. The average FPS is taken by all the framerates at every second and dividing them by the total time. Tell me Keysplyr, if this review is so biased why is an average used (which is used to ELIMINATE EXTREME values)... WHy does the graph look so legitimate?

Why are you so bent on defending one of your members? Am I not a member of this forum? How about this. If I buy a 3870x2 to benchmark and I show you that I'm absolutely right in this matter, I want an apology. I am not saying Anand is corrupt or anything but what I am sayign is that all reviews didn't test the card as extensively as HardOCP did. What you guys are saying is that it's not apples to apples due to the fact some of the settings are changed to FAVOR the 3870x2. Honestly, if you believe that high shaders help the FPS of the 3870x2 against the GTX then I don't think we're drinking the same kool-aid

 

[Munky]

Dude, just look at HOCP test history to see how biased and BS their reviews are. Look at when they tested the 7900gtx against the x1900xtx. Everyone knows by now the 1900xtx is faster, and in some games like Oblivion it was a lot faster. And yet, despite the claims by other reviews and users alike, HOCP apparently got the same performance in Oblivion on both cards. What's more, they refused to change the default texture filtering of the 7-series cards to HQ, despite being well aware of the ugly texture shimmering and inflated benchmark scores. And to top it all off, they rave about the lower heat, noise and power consumption of this "superior gpu", the g71, when in fact it was a slower card, based on older technology, and lacked competitive features. That site has lost its credibility to me a long time ago.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: McCartney

This is an absolutely biased thing to say. As far as this review is concerned I find it completely useful unlike use of canned benchmarks. If the card is that good why does the Radeon 3870x2 lose by more than reasonable doubt? You're telling me that basically one bomb exploding on the 3870 that may have not happened in game on the GTX affected an AVERAGE FPS. The average FPS is taken by all the framerates at every second and dividing them by the total time. Tell me Keysplyr, if this review is so biased why is an average used (which is used to ELIMINATE EXTREME values)... WHy does the graph look so legitimate?

Why are you so bent on defending one of your members? Am I not a member of this forum? How about this. If I buy a 3870x2 to benchmark and I show you that I'm absolutely right in this matter, I want an apology. I am not saying Anand is corrupt or anything but what I am sayign is that all reviews didn't test the card as extensively as HardOCP did. What you guys are saying is that it's not apples to apples due to the fact some of the settings are changed to FAVOR the 3870x2. Honestly, if you believe that high shaders help the FPS of the 3870x2 against the GTX then I don't think we're drinking the same kool-aid

HardOCP sure fooled you ... it "looks" legitimate ... on the surface ... dig a little deeper . No apology.
:roll:

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: McCartney
I'm gonna repeat this. I don't believe those benchmarks we've seen on the grey background are honest. There is no CPU benchmark in the score which leads me to believe some scale tipping is taking place.

We'll see if this thing can even beat the 8800 ULTRA--As far as I'm concerned nothing like what I've seen is credible unless it's from a solid, known, and reputable reviewer (Like ATT, )

To all of the nVidiots who've claimed they were one in the past (I'll find you all, believe me) and those who say "ATI is making me change my allegance" will be quoted and put in a file which I will make my signature after compiling and citing the names of each person-- None of you will escape I promise.

I'm the biggest nVidia fanboy and I laugh at this card (I could get 2 at MSRP for 479 canadian if I wanted since the store I go to has 10 already but NDA says the 28th).

You so-called nVidiots, leave the club and never come back-- You're not welcome. I die by my own sword which was initially the GeForce 256.

Man I hate people who claim they're brand loyalists and then say "Oh well I'm gonna change sides". You never were one to begin with if you even THINK about it

Im sorry, but anyone who can post something as this, should just be ignored.

First off, discounting the vast majority of the sites, just because the show the 3870x2 is faster, is silly.

You claim that its not credible unless it is from a "reputable" reviewer, such as from ATT. Now that ATT has some results that you dont agree with, you change your tune. That is again, silly.

Your claims that someone cant change video cards just because you think they've made some allegiance is again, silly. More along the lines of crazy. You've got them tracked, and none of them will escape? What is it they are supposed to be escaping from? Your wrath? Getting crazier by the minute.

You die by your own sword? Thats... wow. Just because you prefer one company, or bought their card first, doesnt mean you cant change sides to get a card that is better. Actually, that would be the smart thing to do. I prefer ATi, but have bought NV cards many times, more than ATi cards actually. Because one company doesnt always have the best card out. Claiming an undying allegiance to one company is not in your best interest. Do you only eat at McDonalds? Sure if you ate at Burger King, that would be betraying them. Do you only weak Nikes? Surely if you wore Reeboks, you would be betraying them. Do you only buy Fords? If you bought a Chevy, surely you would be betraying them. Do you only buy Sony electronics? If you bought a Phillips, surely you would be betraying them. Those might not be your favorites, but you get the point. Selling out to buy only one companies card, car, food, clothes, etc is silly beyond belief, imo. Its even more silly if you only do this for video cards, and not everything else in your life. Because if you dont, you must not really believe in it, or else you would.

Your post I quoted (from HardOCP) is probably the funniest post Ive ever seen dealing with video cards. Because you seem to be serious. Its funny, yet sad at the same time.