Backblaze posts failure rates

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Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,173
524
126
Without knowing the age of the drives, the overall percentage of failures is meaningless.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Without knowing the age of the drives, the overall percentage of failures is meaningless.
The ages of the drives are right there is red, green, and blue. The graph is plotted by drive age.

It does not make distinctions between models, though, despite that their raw data does appear to show some major differences. Still, more data than anyone else has been willing to give, as they all have had either some kind of conflict of interest (such as Google), or mostly the same drives everywhere.
 

Squeetard

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
815
7
76
This backblaze outfit seems kind of low rent. What is a storage pod and why do these drive failures require so much human finesse to get going again?
 

Squeetard

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
815
7
76
Also, the environment these are being using in means your failure rates in your desktop chassis will be nothing like theirs. They are using desktop drives in a major enterprise array. What's with all the vibration?
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
This backblaze outfit seems kind of low rent.
In a way, yes. Their business model is built around low overhead on storage. Good software, good management, cheap drives. It's kind of a popular thing, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even enterprise file systems are now built to work in such environments, because even those drives are not offering enough data-level reliability to be trusted implicitly, as they had been in the past. So, assume everything that can fail will, design around that, and then brag when failures end up not causing any data loss or downtime, or only minor downtime .
What is a storage pod and why do these drive failures require so much human finesse to get going again?
They describe the pods elsewhere, including offering parts lists and CAD files, so you can make your own, but it's basically just a tightly packed x86 storage server, that, aside from the case, can be done as a kit. The second question is answered in the article. If you don't get how RAID arrays work, I don't know how to describe it in a concise way, though.

If you want to try to learn, though, I can try to offer some context, in that a redundant RAID array is there to keep good data in the array of drives, in the event of a drive failure. The array is either good or failed. However, there are levels of parts failures while the array is still good (IE, parts may be dead or malfunctioning, but the data volume is fine, because it's designed to handle those failures). If too many drives fail too quickly, data on the array can be compromised. If a drive acts up, the RAID controller, be it software or hardware, will generally decide that drive is not trustworthy, at which point a human must check things out and judge the situation.

Note that, while Seagate had many more problematic functional drives, it as still well under 0.5% of their drives.

Also, the environment these are being using in means your failure rates in your desktop chassis will be nothing like theirs. They are using desktop drives in a major enterprise array. What's with all the vibration?
Exactly what I was getting in my first reply. I think the trend of Seagates wearing themselves out, yet WDs and Hitachis not, is quite clear, but what do their time frames translate into with different workloads and environments? Not that they would have the answers, but it is something to keep in mind. I've never had any trouble with WD Green drives, FI, other than performance, but I've only ever used them in external drives with low duty cycles, or internal drives with, drum roll please, low duty cycles, and not with many other drives in the case.
 
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poohbear

Platinum Member
Mar 11, 2003
2,284
5
81
No, it doesn't. Seagate drives typically have the same 2 year warranty as WD Blue. Toshiba has 1-2 year warranty depending on the drive. And WD Black's 5 year warranty doesn't mean it's more reliable, it just makes it more expensive.

Really? My understanding is WD Blacks go through more rigorous testing, hence they're confident it'll last 5 years. otherwise why provide a longer warranty on just the same drive as the Blues?
 

milee

Member
Jun 7, 2013
52
0
0
Even though WD Black and WD Blue are not the same drive, I would sell you a WD Blue for 8 times its price, giving you 20 years of warranty.
 

bononos

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2011
3,928
186
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Really? My understanding is WD Blacks go through more rigorous testing, hence they're confident it'll last 5 years. otherwise why provide a longer warranty on just the same drive as the Blues?

Because customers have to pay more for a longer warranty?
 

PliotronX

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
8,883
107
106
That's a nice trick for amateurs such as WD.

Real pros like Seagate increase the price and reduce the warranty. That's how you win the game.
heh, your humor is not lost but Seagates tend to be less expensive than WD models and in some cases faster (ST1000DM001 vs WD Blue) however you get what you pay for IME.
 

Old Hippie

Diamond Member
Oct 8, 2005
6,361
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however you get what you pay for IME.

:thumbsup: Always did, always will.

We're not even factoring in the "Oh my God all my data has disappeared-lost TONS of irreplaceable pictures/porn and can I get it back for $1.25" posts.

While this study is nice the author even says
Basically, we buy the least expensive drives that will work
and as others have pointed out the drives need to be compared on a model by model basis to actually reach a conclusion.

What I found interesting was that the low power usage spin down drives didn't work for them but again, you need to look at the usage situation.

While I'm not a fanboy of any manfg. (I am an anti-fanboy of a few) I'm positive that this study will fan the flames of more than a few discussions.

And I'll be right there with my popcorn to enjoy the ensuing fanboy spats. LOL!
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
2,363
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Well, I just upgraded my fileserver with ten ST4000DM000 drives. I guess I'll know in a couple of years if it was a good choice or not. I'm not too worried though. I'm running snapraid with 2 drives dedicated to parity. It's not an ideal solution as it is not a real time parity protection, but it's good enough for general backup and media file server.
 

PliotronX

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
8,883
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Don't let my sour experiences shake your confidence, I have had strange luck with HDD's. I still have one of the most infamously unreliable hard drives plugging away in a circa 2003 system, an IBM Deskstar GXP45. It's proven more reliable than any Seagate of mine but you will probably not have any issues and your parity setup is a good idea with a HDD from any manufacturer.
 

Squeetard

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
815
7
76
If you don't get how RAID arrays work, I don't know how to describe it in a concise way, though.

If you want to try to learn, though, I can try to offer some context, in that a redundant RAID array is there to keep good data in the array of drives, in the event of a drive failure. The array is either good or failed. However, there are levels of parts failures while the array is still good (IE, parts may be dead or malfunctioning, but the data volume is fine, because it's designed to handle those failures). If too many drives fail too quickly, data on the array can be compromised. If a drive acts up, the RAID controller, be it software or hardware, will generally decide that drive is not trustworthy, at which point a human must check things out and judge the situation.

Gee thanks for explaining to the IT director of a medium sized city how RAID works. And being [lousy] at it too.

If they are having vibration enough to kill drives they need to seriously redesign their pods.

Second, A drive fails or gets marked as bad, you either have hot spares in the rack that automatically take over. Or pop out the suspect drive and pop in a cold spare. Too easy. No check things out and judge the situation. 2 seconds of your time.

Like I said, sounds low rent to me.

No profanity in the tech forums, please
-ViRGE
 
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Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Gee thanks for explaining to the IT director of a medium sized city how RAID works. And being [lousy] at it too.
Well, you were acting like it didn't make any sense, despite being exactly what SMBs and larger startups have been doing for at least a decade, just going farther than most reasonably can. The case and software are all they have that's particularly special, and not done elsewhere.

If they are having vibration enough to kill drives they need to seriously redesign their pods.
Though, it does make sense, given that you haven't read the linked content, merely been trying to infer things which would are plainly stated (IE, they've been doing exactly that, with design revisions, mentioned mere clicks away from the main link).

Like I said, sounds low rent to me.
For $50/yr, without storage caps, you would expect what, exactly? A cheap always-online backup is the point, and it's not easy to do with high-cost hardware, such as any big vendor's HDDs, or non-rebranded HDDs marketed for RAID at higher prices. It's like a ZFS backup box taken to a much larger scale.
 
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BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
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One of the ways these online storage companies make money is they use custom cases that have massive amounts of drives suspended in the same case with a small computer attached. I seem to recall seeing a design in the past that basically used some foam and elastic bands to hold the hard drives and a load of routed sata cables. The end result is a single computer connected to something like 64 SATA drives in one case.

This is significantly cheaper than your average enterprise 4U storage case, its both denser in terms of drives and space, cheaper in that its SATA based and the machine running it all is relatively underpowered compared to something you might buy as a storage cabinet from a big vendor like Dell.

However all those drives vibrating around in the case means there is a lot of ongoing vibrations to the other drives. Even standard storage cabinets can have problems when people walking past them or under heavy load as the vibrations impact their IO performance. These customer very high density storage cabinets produce a lot of vibration and so the drives simply have to work in those conditions, and many do happily work like that.

The challenge with a lot of raid solutions is that they often don't rebuild very well. There is a lot of manual messing about especially when you have a drive that is partially failing and the system is having problems but not enough problems to kick it out of the array. These are pretty typical problems people have with sizeable arrays on Linux, its just not as automatic as you would like.

The reality is drive vibration is how they make the drives cheap and drives that are failing don't always fail such that the array is automatically handled so some manual intervention is often required. In addition these sorts of services use custom software to ensure there are multiple copies of everything software synced across the systems which is the other way they ensure this all works relatively smoothly and survive a complete machine meltdown or two.
 

Icecold

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2004
1,145
1,088
146
Gee thanks for explaining to the IT director of a medium sized city how RAID works. And being [lousy] at it too.

Interesting.. in another thread you mentioned being a contract IT project manager / consultant. Canada outsources their government IT work(let alone Director of all positions) to a consultant?

Either way, my 217th post in 9 and a half years goes to telling you not to be so rude to fellow posters. Read the article; backblaze seems like a pretty solid company and they're willing to donate back to the community by giving build specs and failure rates on drives. They don't apply to everybody as every situation is different, but at least they are willing to give to the community and help people make informed decisions.
 
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Squeetard

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
815
7
76
Me thinks tard just got busted, lol

Nope. I have been IT director at my city for 4 years now. On a contract basis. This is a municipality, nothing to do with Provincial or federal Government. I used to have a dozen clients now I have them, a Flour Mill and an Eye surgeon. I kept the Eye surgeon on as the Ladies that work there are hot and they don't bug me much, the odd new computer and the odd service call.

The City advertised the position for a year and a half and got no suitable candidates, when it hit time to roll over their servers and workstations they got in a panic. Word of mouth got them in contact with me. They offered me the position and I turned it down, so they offered me to contract to get them through the roll over. They liked me so they kept me on as contract. Next year, I may got on the payroll as permanent part time. I can still contract to my other clients but if I do the city for 5 years on the payroll it will kick in a pension for me that will help me in retirement.

I work mornings at the City, come home and log into the flour mill remotely. Manage their Servers and do custom programming on their database.
 

ronbo613

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2010
1,237
45
91
I am the CEO, Creative Director and IT Manager of a small imaging and video production company. We use mostly 1TB WD RE and Black drives in our workstations, a couple 2TB WD Reds in a NAS and 4TB Hitachi drives in our servers. We've had good success with all of them.
 

PliotronX

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
8,883
107
106
I am the CEO, Creative Director and IT Manager of a small imaging and video production company. We use mostly 1TB WD RE and Black drives in our workstations, a couple 2TB WD Reds in a NAS and 4TB Hitachi drives in our servers. We've had good success with all of them.
Good choices :thumbsup:
 

rsutoratosu

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2011
2,716
4
81
That seagate 1.5 model that had issues, I have about 14 of them from 2008/2009 with 5yr warranty, only had 2 bad disk, and I just retired them last week and got the 4tb hitachi drive, the hitachi only has 3 yr warranty.. too bad it didn't have 5.

As of last year, it was the fastest 4tb drive on the market.
 

PliotronX

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 1999
8,883
107
106
That seagate 1.5 model that had issues, I have about 14 of them from 2008/2009 with 5yr warranty, only had 2 bad disk, and I just retired them last week and got the 4tb hitachi drive, the hitachi only has 3 yr warranty.. too bad it didn't have 5.

As of last year, it was the fastest 4tb drive on the market.
Warranty or not it has a far greater chance of making five years than equivalent Seagate models.
 
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