Bad hop on my traceroute

Lupinicus

Member
Aug 11, 2003
27
0
61
My home connection is a portion of a high bandwidth DSL that my landlord provides. I am running Windows XP Professional. The problem I am having is with a specific website. When I try to access it through a browser, it eventually times out. When I perform a traceroute to this website, the route times out after the third hop. This also occurs when I use my laptop on my home network. I am able to access this site when I'm on other networks (like when I'm at work) and I also have friends who are able to access this website normally. A friend told me it my be a problem with the DNS server, so I tried using other public DNS servers, but the same problem has occurred. My big question is what would be causing this sort of problem, and a second question would be, is there anything I can do about it?
 

jlazzaro

Golden Member
May 6, 2004
1,743
0
0
post the traceroute.

depending on who's hop it is, you may be able to call and complain to your isp. chances are theres nothing you can do about it now though, youll have to wait till it's fixed.
 

Lupinicus

Member
Aug 11, 2003
27
0
61
Tracing route to forums.dabruce.com [89.149.201.128]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms <my router>
2 2 ms 1 ms * rt.snaresystems.net [63.216.50.129]
3 20 ms 21 ms 20 ms 63.218.49.241
4 * * * Request timed out.
5 * * * Request timed out.

I have tried this without my router as well. I have actually been in contact with the people who own 63.218.49.241, but apparently I need to go further down the food chain as they lease it to another ISP. Also, is there something like a name for this problem? I feel like I'm fumbling for words when I try to describe what is happening. What are the guesses for what is wrong here?
 

jlazzaro

Golden Member
May 6, 2004
1,743
0
0
a route / path / hop went bad. in a perfect world, the provider would route around the failure and you wouldnt notice anything. however, this is not the case.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Call the provider and tell them you found a black-hole route.

Essentially a route is bad and the only one who can fix it is your provider. Their 3rd/4th level techs are the only ones so you'll have to escalate to there.
 

p0lar

Senior member
Nov 16, 2002
634
0
76
Meh, there's no international law that dictates someone must permit that ICMP functionality. I have clientelle that request all the time to block it, and these aren't end users, but ISPs, albeit a majority are satellite ISPs and make the requests for dumb reasons I won't take the time to enumerate. Regardless, you can eMail until you're blue in the face -- it may not be broken, just non-functional -- there is a big difference. Also, don't forget that many routes are asymmetrical. That particular ICMP code may operate just fine en route, but may be disabled via the return route due to a number of reasons.

Debugging with traceroute is fine internally, but you cannot reasonably demand that an external ISP enable (or disable for that matter) that aspect of the protocol. It is a common debugging courtesy, nothing more.

It is even possible that your network is being filtered unconditionally, regardless of protocol -- wouldn't be the first time I've seen (or done) that. Does a TCP handshake complete when you try to open a connection to that IP/Port? Traceroute has absolutely NOTHING to do with the functionality of a web service anyway. *shrug*
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Originally posted by: p0lar
Meh, there's no international law that dictates someone must permit that ICMP functionality. I have clientelle that request all the time to block it, and these aren't end users, but ISPs, albeit a majority are satellite ISPs and make the requests for dumb reasons I won't take the time to enumerate. Regardless, you can eMail until you're blue in the face -- it may not be broken, just non-functional -- there is a big difference. Also, don't forget that many routes are asymmetrical. That particular ICMP code may operate just fine en route, but may be disabled via the return route due to a number of reasons.

Debugging with traceroute is fine internally, but you cannot reasonably demand that an external ISP enable (or disable for that matter) that aspect of the protocol. It is a common debugging courtesy, nothing more.

It is even possible that your network is being filtered unconditionally, regardless of protocol -- wouldn't be the first time I've seen (or done) that. Does a TCP handshake complete when you try to open a connection to that IP/Port? Traceroute has absolutely NOTHING to do with the functionality of a web service anyway. *shrug*



good point, traceroute can be unreliable tool as soon as you leave your network.
 

Lupinicus

Member
Aug 11, 2003
27
0
61
Originally posted by: p0lar
It is even possible that your network is being filtered unconditionally, regardless of protocol -- wouldn't be the first time I've seen (or done) that. Does a TCP handshake complete when you try to open a connection to that IP/Port? Traceroute has absolutely NOTHING to do with the functionality of a web service anyway. *shrug*

What you say here is beyond my current knowledge. How would I go about checking this? Are you also saying that I do not have the right to request that my ISP give me access to a website that I can visit on every other network I've tried?
 

nweaver

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2001
6,813
1
0
Originally posted by: Lupinicus
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: p0lar
It is even possible that your network is being filtered unconditionally, regardless of protocol -- wouldn't be the first time I've seen (or done) that. Does a TCP handshake complete when you try to open a connection to that IP/Port? Traceroute has absolutely NOTHING to do with the functionality of a web service anyway. *shrug*
</end quote></div>

What you say here is beyond my current knowledge. How would I go about checking this? Are you also saying that I do not have the right to request that my ISP give me access to a website that I can visit on every other network I've tried?

yes, it's a private business, they can do whatever they want, your rights include not using them and finding someone who WILL let you. The business has to decide where to draw the line. For instance, I doubt your ISP is blocking web sites, as randomly blocking sites would drive customers away. They MIGHT block you from doing P2P, as it's a small minority of users, it costs them more then they user pays, and slows down the network for other users, so by blocking P2P, and the customer leaving, they lower costs, increase service for other customers, and don't really lose any money.

Please don't think that you have a "right" to do anything you want when it comes to networks. The Internet is NOT an inalienable human right.
 

Lupinicus

Member
Aug 11, 2003
27
0
61
I understand what you're saying, but I do think I have the right to ask them to *fix* this. I'm not saying I have some sort of legal right to go after them for this problem, but the post I was referring to seemed (to me at least) to say that I really shouldn't bother with this. I've never had an ISP block a normal website (this particular one is just a forum) and as you said in your post, it's very bad business.
 

p0lar

Senior member
Nov 16, 2002
634
0
76
Originally posted by: Lupinicus
I understand what you're saying, but I do think I have the right to ask them to *fix* this. I'm not saying I have some sort of legal right to go after them for this problem, but the post I was referring to seemed (to me at least) to say that I really shouldn't bother with this. I've never had an ISP block a normal website (this particular one is just a forum) and as you said in your post, it's very bad business.

Sure, you have the right to ask them to determine why you can't reach their website. In fact, you have the right to ask them for $1M.

But, you can't reasonably expect to dictate security policy to them (i.e. fixing traceroute)

To test whether the port is open or not, try using a simple telnet command in windows (or *nix I suppose, though nc is a better tool)...

telnet <ip_address> <port>

if it goes to a blank and doesn't say 'closed', then you can reasonably presume it's open. You may need to press control ] to kill the telnet session.
 

jlazzaro

Golden Member
May 6, 2004
1,743
0
0
sure, you can ask them to fix it. i can ask you for a million dollars too, doesnt mean im getting it.

if anything is being blocked (keep in mind we dont know this as fact...its just a possible scenario) its you not the website. And not you in paticular, just a range of addresses that you happen to fall under.
 

Lupinicus

Member
Aug 11, 2003
27
0
61
Thank you for the telnet info. Again, all I want is to be able to reach a simple website. I'm not asking for anything dangerous or odd.
 

jlazzaro

Golden Member
May 6, 2004
1,743
0
0
Originally posted by: Lupinicus
Thank you for the telnet info. Again, all I want is to be able to reach a simple website. I'm not asking for anything dangerous or odd.
i feel your pain, but in the end its falling on deaf ears.
 

Lupinicus

Member
Aug 11, 2003
27
0
61
So if the telnet test does not connect at all (I tried port 80), does that shed more light on the situation?
 

p0lar

Senior member
Nov 16, 2002
634
0
76
Originally posted by: Lupinicus
So if the telnet test comes back as closed, does that shed more light on the situation?

Yeah, means that something isn't even permitting the TCP handshake to occur. You might try using wireshark to see if it also spits back an icmp unreachable, and which IP is spitting that back. Sometimes, an interim firewall will give a clue. What is your geographical locale?
 

p0lar

Senior member
Nov 16, 2002
634
0
76
Originally posted by: jlazzaro
sure, you can ask them to fix it. i can ask you for a million dollars too, doesnt mean im getting it.

LOL.. 5 minutes apart, did you see my post before writing that or is this a case of great minds satirize alike?
 

jlazzaro

Golden Member
May 6, 2004
1,743
0
0
Originally posted by: p0lar
LOL.. 5 minutes apart, did you see my post before writing that or is this a case of great minds satirize alike?
the latter, my friend
 

Lupinicus

Member
Aug 11, 2003
27
0
61
Heh, so after all of this discussion, it was just an error on my ISP's end. It has been resolved. Thank you for the help though.
 

jjj-justdoinjob

Junior Member
Jul 31, 2014
1
0
0
i came across this as im trying to figure out how to skip a 'bad hop' if anybodys wondering why so late a post..

and im thankful mweaver for your explanation as to the difference between broken and non-functional in a hop.

im also the most conservative, pro business rights person you will meet, but i have to disagree though with your concept of business responsibility.

although customers have a right to choose another business, once a business takes a customer's money in return for a service, they have an obligation to provide that service. if they decide to change the service, by contract law (and basic morality) they are required to 1) notify the customer so he has a right to choose whether to continue paying and 2) refund money to the customer if they are no longer providing the service the customer has paid for.

in the cases described, where ISPs arbitrarily block services, protocols, IPs, etc, the customer is almost never (unfortunately although its likely, i cant say never definitively) notified of the restrictions to his service. when he does notice the restrictions, he is often confounded in his attempts to find out if he is being restricted (witness the above poster who eventually got his ISP to own up) so he can *make* the decision to leave and find another provider. (therefore the ISP is holding his money effectively hostage, preventing him from looking elsewhere). this is not acceptable in any sense of legal or business ethics practice and is the cause of most customer consternation, despair and sometimes outrage.

i understand that business needs/ personnel resource issues/ sheer workload/ maybe security requirements will make it impossible to do due diligence toward the customers, but i think it is unfortunate that reasonable intelligent systems administrators are not aware of this basic issue.

there are real issues when a customer has his services arbitrarily disrupted without his knowledge.
1) by the time a customer calls, he has usually spent 1 to 6 hours of his time (depeding on his technical skill and the consistency of the issue) trying to diagnose the issue himself. that is *all* lost productivity and time
2) his call usually requires him to go through level 1 and level 2 support which usually requires him to reboot and restart all of his systems before that level is convinced it is actually a ISP issue and can send it to the next level. This usually means he has to restart all of his work after the call, and assuming his wait/diagnostic time is (generously) 1 hour, thats another hour of work (usually much longer) lost.
3) then he has to wait for level 3/4 support. this can be 24 hours to 2 weeks depending on ISP and is all time where he cannot decide to take his money elsewhere or make other decisions.
4) and, worst case, if the disruption occurred during a critical internet activity (like a web site database upgrade) there is the potential for tremendous loss to the individual or small business when even a *little* warning and customer care from the ISP could have prevented the entire loss

so 10-20 hours, tied up funds and unlikely but possible catastrophic damage for a service which was already paid for is not an acceptable situation for most consumers. i think most business would not put up with such from their suppliers either.







yes, it's a private business, they can do whatever they want, your rights include not using them and finding someone who WILL let you. The business has to decide where to draw the line. For instance, I doubt your ISP is blocking web sites, as randomly blocking sites would drive customers away. They MIGHT block you from doing P2P, as it's a small minority of users, it costs them more then they user pays, and slows down the network for other users, so by blocking P2P, and the customer leaving, they lower costs, increase service for other customers, and don't really lose any money.

Please don't think that you have a "right" to do anything you want when it comes to networks. The Internet is NOT an inalienable human right.
 

JackMDS

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 25, 1999
29,538
418
126
Debugging with traceroute is fine internally, but you cannot reasonably demand that an external ISP enable (or disable for that matter) that aspect of the protocol. It is a common debugging courtesy, nothing more.

QFT +1.

--------------
One can "Drama Queen" for eternity, it does not change anything in tangible reality.







 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
5,224
306
126
Could he just go through one of the many online anonymizing services / proxies because that would change his route and likely get around the issue?
 
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