Where did I say I have to tip to get basic service? The real thing that's sad here is your reading comprehension.
No I did and that's sad that you feel like you have to tip to get basic service. I'll stick to tipping when I get service that deserves a tip. Me personally I wouldn't patron a place that I had to tip to get basic service.
How does the customer lose? Because they have to do simple math? Suppose you pay $20 for a meal and $3 for a tip. Now imagine there's some alternate universe where no one has this tipping system. How much do you think you are paying for your identical meal with identical service from the same person making the same take-home pay? I can assure you it won't be $20.
I tip because I know that if people didn't tip, then servers would make less, which in turn would mean that the quality of servers would be lower because only people willing to make that much less would be willing to be servers at the same restaurant. I don't know why this is such a hard concept to understand.
I tip because I know that if people didn't tip, then servers would make less, which in turn would mean that the quality of servers would be lower because only people willing to make that much less would be willing to be servers at the same restaurant. I don't know why this is such a hard concept to understand.
What is this agree or expect to tip crap? It *should* be something completely voluntary and rare, in the case of exemplary service. This is lost on our society here where it's expected. I've been very glad to tip for guys who took 20 minutes to bring my furniture in through the side door because they were too large for the other door, and moving it a few times because it just didn't look right. I've been very glad to tip for the service guy that went the extra mile to fix my car the way they were told not to if they didn't have to. I even bought the guy donuts the next time. I also tipped the local mechanic because he even washed my wheels doing a quick job for me.
But for people who are employees of a restaurant who simply bring me my hot food that I'm already paying double or triple for, what kind of outstanding service is there? Maybe if he gave me an extra drink or extra sauce without asking just because he felt it was needed... things like that. Yet it's expected that I tip him 15% standard just for being there, just for me stepping foot inside the place. That should not be considered a tip. I still do it, BUT THIS CONCEPT IS NOT RIGHT because a tip is a tip, not a handout. The system is fuct and all you can say is, "just do it". You're right, you're not saying anything that hasn't been said a hundred times. If it made any sense, people wouldn't challenge it over and over.
Tell you what, instead of telling me "I have options" or "it's expected", tell me why I should pay the guy extra for doing his job like I do mine? Because the owner only pays him so little that I should feel bad? Because the food was so cheap already?! What is it?
I just gave you a perfectly good example of all sides including where the customer has to pay more with tipping (which people didn't believe) and you have to suppose there's an alternate universe?
it's not hard to understand, I perfectly understand that you subscribe to & partake in a fuct up system. The only thing left to do is admit it.
If you're going to run with hypotheticals, especially economical hypotheticals, then you need to continue onwards to the logical end. After these servers (who are not in a professions that requires heavy, front-loaded investments) find a substitute business to work in, then the bad servers will come in. People will become upset with the level of service they're getting and will probably move onto other restaurants who are willing to pay more to their servers if they are willing to work harder. That's the inherent of hypotheticals. They can go on indefinitely.
You did not give any such thing. You made up some random numbers and assumed with complete ignorance that the same server would be willing to forego tips in order to make $5/hr more and bring them to minimum wage. Is that the completely idiotic "example" you refer to?
You have yet to offer any evidence that a no-tip system would be better. Either you'd end up paying the same because the owner would build the costs of quality servers into the menu, or you'd get crappier service because no skilled servers would be willing to work for a greatly reduced wage.
Again you don't understand what a tip is. The numbers I gave (based on avg of 4 people per table) were base pay and customers can still give a tip when it is actually WARRANTED. I can't get tips at my job... they can at theirs... there's your incentive for doing it... and doing it well. It just shifts who should be paying out what. But no, you think they should be getting those $30+/hr payouts exclusively from customers just for being in the place doing what's already in their job description. No wonder kids would rather waiter in college... it's all but guaranteed money.
It doesn't matter who pays them. The owner is not going to pay them and then just take the hit to their income or take it out of the budget somewhere else. If they want the same people working there, they need to pay them the same wages. If they pay them the same wages, they have to raise the price accordingly and the customer STILL PAYS. Money doesn't materialize out of thin air. That does NOT mean bumping them up to just minimum wage.
It doesn't matter who pays them. The owner is not going to pay them and then just take the hit to their income or take it out of the budget somewhere else. If they want the same people working there, they need to pay them the same wages. If they pay them the same wages, they have to raise the price accordingly and the customer STILL PAYS. Money doesn't materialize out of thin air. That does NOT mean bumping them up to just minimum wage. I don't know where you go out to eat but I can assure you that most of the places I dine do not pay their servers minimum wage (after tips), nor would I want them to.
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Why do you say this like others without providing numbers? List what additional expenses the owners take on if they pay them a regular hourly rate (comparable to other service jobs at their age). Do the math and show me my numbers were wrong, mr.-I-want-to-see-evidence.
But since all they do is bring your food to the table, minimum wage should be fine!
As if anyone actually works for minimum wage, I know I never have.
If tipping were outlawed, the same server would need to be paid $32.15/hr by the owner in order to make the same take-home pay. Probably more if we assume much of it is undeclared cash tips.
Please describe to me where this money comes from, and the particular tree on which you think it grows.
Of course, you will probably now contend that servers only deserve $7/hr. In which case I suggest you try being a server, since you obviously think it's easy money. Why would anyone complain that someone else who apparently just has to take a plate from one room to another is overpaid when they could easily get such a job themselves? It is seemingly completely unskilled labor that pays exorbitantly. Surely everyone should be coming to the US to work as wait staff as it is a gold mine the likes of which no one has ever seen in history.
Actually it was $8/hr + whatever the owner pays plus potential tips from customers is their take-home. The owner DOES NOT have to equate that. The waiter DOES NOT need to be making anywhere close to $30/hr to do that job. Sure, if we were transitioning from the current fuck-up to what I'm talking about, they would whine about it, but that's my point... the system is so fucked up as-is and all we can do is pay it... their $30/hr. How many skilled white-collar people their age on this board make that? How are there actually people who defend this?
$10 is minimum wage now? Potential for tips for doing a great job on top of that is so terrible for a service worker?
Actually it was $8/hr + whatever the owner pays plus potential tips from customers is their take-home. The owner DOES NOT have to equate their current take-home - (why would they - to keep guys who were coasting on the gravy train?) The waiter DOES NOT need to be making anywhere close to $30/hr to do that job. Sure, if we were transitioning from the current fuck-up to what I'm talking about, they would whine about it, but that's my point... the system is so fucked up as-is and all we can do is pay it... their $30/hr. How many skilled white-collar people their age on this board make that? How are there actually people who defend this?
How many peak hours do you figure a server has? They might make that $30/hr for two dinner sittings, or one lunch sitting. So a server with all the right shifts might serve their section, full, three times a day.
It's not a gravy train job, at all, but good servers can make reasonable money. In return they get crap hours, completely uncertain pay, and have to deal with cheap, asshole customers.
As I said, since it is obviously a gold mine and all they are doing is transporting a plate from the kitchen to the table, why not take it up yourself? I am surprised that all these ATOTers haven't already changed careers to be wait staff since it is so lucrative and requires so little skill.
Also, I would ask that you call Alinea (restaurant I mentioned a while back) and try to explain to them why their servers are grossly overpaid compared to ATOT white collar workers. Please record this conversation.
This is all very true, but they have options... we've all worked college jobs. The system of us paying their $30 instead of the owner contributing the majority and bringing their service industry job to a realistic salary ... that's still wrong.
Laughable retorts have always included "if you don't like it, leave" and "if it's so easy, why don't you do it?". I wonder why so many servers are either not-yet-professional-age or are foreign.
This is all very true, but they have options... we've all worked college jobs. The system of us paying their $30 instead of the owner contributing the majority and bringing their service industry job to a realistic salary ... that's still wrong.
Laughable retorts have always included "if you don't like it, leave" and "if it's so easy, why don't you do it?". I wonder why so many servers are either not-yet-professional-age or are foreign.
Seriously? You are still thinking that the money would materialize out of thin air? Do you understand how businesses work? If the owner pays employees extra money they will pass the cost on to us. That's how.
Because you are dining at McDonald's?
Try reading previous posts thoroughly. I'm starting to just laugh at you, try to keep my laughter at a minimum. Better yet, stop wasting my time. All you're good at is name calling.
I read you guys should be tipping too.. 10%?
Should? 10% is the norm, and for that I expect good service. If it's exceptional it will go to 15%, if bad, 5% as a 'try harder' or 0% for a 'fuck you, that was terrible and I won't be comming back'.
LOL, Italian tourist traps are NOT a good example... especially as you got stiffed twice...I gave an example earlier in this thread - Italy. I visited Italy in 1995, but I'm guessing things haven't changed there other than the currency.
Restaurants there charge you more if you eat there. I went to a restaurant in Florence that was pretty much empty. I ordered a pizza (8000 lira) and a Coke (4000 lira) to go. I'm not sure the "to go" part crossed the language barrier; the person behind the counter urged me to sit down, so I sat while I waited. She charged me an extra 8000 lira because I sat down - I didn't even eat there! I paid ~$13 for that meal instead of ~$8. I was in high school, so I was kind of annoyed. I was more annoyed that there was no sauce on the pizza. That was the result of another issue with the language barrier - she asked if I wanted any toppings and I said no, just cheese. I couldn't blame her for not speaking English.
Pah. Overpaid foreigners making an undeserved extra 10% to carry objects. How I hate them so.