Basement HT Build - DIY Options?

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Hi guys!

It's been a long time.
FYI I did a mini-update here about what's need in the Jello household
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37049659&postcount=100

Anyway, down to business:

About three years ago, we had a water problem in our newly purchased home. We "unfinished" our '70s basement and put in a waterproofing system.

Then the basement sat for about two years while we saved up to "refinish" it.

As part of the new build-out, I've managed to reserve a room for a home theater (I've been without one for about two years now... reduced to watching stuff on a 13" laptop)

So...

The room
Which has since been covered with sheetrock, for better or worse =D
It's about 1800 ft^3

View of proposed "front" of room and "left wall" (with low ceiling along left wall)

View of proposed "back" of room before anything went up besides framing

Good things:

• Total light control (and walls & ceiling will be dark colors, carpet on floor)
• Decent length / width (I hope... for two rows) 12'5" x 22'3"
• I have a bunch of room treatments to re-use ( http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/YOyoYOhowsDAjello/10-18-2009-RFL.JPG )
• In-wall conduit is run for surrounds & ceiling so I can run cables
• Three new dedicated 20amp 120v circuits installed (2 in front, 1 in back)
• Rear of room backs up against the mechanical room, so I could put any noisy components back there like amps with fans, or perhaps even get more creative?
• Left wall of room goes into unfinished laundry room, so another opportunity for creativity if necessary

Not so good things:

• Very low ceilings (7'4" for most of the room and only about 6'4" or so where the soffit comes down)
• Due to competing priorities, I probably already made some not-so-great decisions (or lack of decisions) on construction choice
• Rear of room backs up against the mechanical room, so there may be some noise coming from that area (I had an extra layer of soundboard installed back there to help mitigate it)

Equipment I have on hand

Stuff I will likely re-use

• Panasonic AE4000U (has lens memory)
• Onkyo 876
• SVS AS EQ1
• Boston Acoustics A7200 (7x100 into 8 ohms, 7x150 into 4 ohms)
• Oppo 103
• A bunch of Owens Corning 103 Bass Traps & Treatments

Stuff I might re-use

• Two SVS cylinder subs (a PC-Ultra TV-12 and a 20-39 PC+)

Stuff I want to replace

• Current speakers
• Probably the subs
• 102" Blackout Cloth 16:9 screen

Goals

80% Movies, 10% Games, 10% Music
Clean & loud - ability to get to reference without breaking a sweat (bonus points for pants flapping around if / when I run the subs hotter)
Strong bass extension into teens
Not "bright" sounding

What's in my head right now for a plan

Originally I was thinking a full Seaton Sound or JTR setup, but I don't think I can justify that expense with baby #2 on the way.

So... I'm pretty excited about what I'm seeing on AVSforum about the SEOS project. I noticed quite a few familiar names in those threads, so I thought I'd come over here and get some confirmations that I seem to be on the right track.

I'm thinking of getting as turn-key as possible on these. I have a serious lack of tools and the space to do anything fancy.

The flat pack options + paying for crossover build where possible + duratex seems like it's about as simple as it gets

Speakers

• Three 1099s http://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-theater-speakers/elusive-1099.html
• Four V-10 Volt http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits/v10-volt-kit.html

Subs

Ok... I am not sure how crazy is advised here. I've experienced dual subs before and am 100% bought into the idea of having at least two.

I had in my head before that I was going to do dual Seaton Submersives or two Captivator S2s. That's probably ridiculous for 1800 ft^3.

However, with the DIY stuff out there, it seems like four good 18" woofers + amplification is actually pretty cheap, so that's what's in my head now.

So... like

Four sealed Ultimax 18" http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-18-ultimax-subwoofer-and-cabinet-package--300-7099
+ two inuke 6000 http://www.parts-express.com/behrin...ightweight-power-amplifier-with-dsp--248-6710

OR

Martysub flat packs + similar drivers & power

I think I need the most help figuring out how dumb this is and how much space these cabinets would take up & where I would put them.

Screen

Re-using AE4000U
Acoustically transparent screen (maybe Falcon Vision HD or Seymore Centerstage XD)

Due to shape of room, I think I might do a 2.35:1 screen as high up as I can get to where it hits the "low" ceiling. I'm still wrapping my head around how compromised that will be for dual row seating.

102" 16:9 screen looked goofy in the room due to ceiling shape. I think making the screen more close to the width of the room will look less goofy (125" 2.35:1?)

I think I'll have to do some mock layouts to figure out how far away from the front of the room I can place the screen and how that affects projector throw range and seating locations (I think it's going to get tight fast)



So... help? =D

 

[Tiamat]

Hey, yoyo unfortunately I've been out of the av scene for a few years. Life priorities I guess! For the mechanical room, you could hang double 5/8" dry wall using rsic clips and hat channel to fully decouple it from the studs with green glue sandwiched in between the two drywall layers. As for screen shape, the room will be dark so the ar of the screen shouldn't matter in terms of goofiness. For aesthetics when not is use, a masking system could be employed, be it dark curtains or some fancy setup. Can never have enough subwoofer in a theater for purposes of improving bass uniformity, depth of frequency, and overhead. The theater design for my space that I have put on hold due to cost and other priorities calls for four in wall subs in addition to 2 procella p18 with the front end being three procella p815s for a 30'x13'x8' space. Personally, I would spend as much as possible on the room construction if you are serious about this. Room within a room type design considerations are important for home theaters to keep noise out and the theater sound in. Common noise leaks are the HVAC ducts, theater door, staircases, ceiling, and mechanical rooms. With a good acoustically isolated home theater, you will find that even pedestrian equipment will be very enjoyable until you are ready to upgrade.

The theater design for my room artificially narrows the theater down to 13' by the width of the soffit (3') by putting an acoustically transparent wall in and using the area beneath the soffit as a hidden hallway for access to the rear hidden projector/electronics room and the front hidden front speaker room.

Just some brainstorming rambling...

 

[richardycc]

you need to sound proof/isolation the room, that's one thing I regret that I didn't do it, and it is close to impossible to do that now that I have everything up.

 

[Kaido]

That's a heck of a lurker post homie :awe:

 

[Anubis]

I'm pretty sure I've built and heard more of the DIY sound group offerings then anyone on AT and maybe on AVS as well. for the $ spent pretty much any of the kits will work and beat out similarly priced commercial offerings.

I would do Seaton or JTRs if the budget allowed however, the Cat 12s and Noesis are amazing speakers

the 1099 is a great choice if you can get it, I know Erich said he only had a limited amount of the parts left. one of the woofers was a buyout and I don't believe they are making them anymore

if you cant get it the new Sentinel is what I would choose http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-15/fusion15-kit.html
bigger waveguide bigger woofer, ive heard the V1 a bunch of times and they never disappoint, loud clean and dynamic.

I have the volt 8s and they or the 10s will be excellent surrounds

all you really need is glue and some clamps to put the flatpacks together. more tools help (sander, bradnailer) but that's really it. and Duratex is pretty foolproof

Depending on if the speaker has a preassembled xover offered you may be able to get it straight from DIYSG if not MTG90 on AVS, I believe will assemble them for you

2 caps or SubM HPs in 1800 CUFT is not crazy, I know people who have more in less space. Hell I have more in less space a lot less space....

anyway a sealed 18" either the SI 18 (http://stereointegrity.com/product/ht18-18-subwoofer/) or the Dayton 18" (HO or ultimax) wants like 4 CUFT sealed and the standard marty sub is larger like 10 CUFT (about the same size as a cap IIRC) should be pretty easy to figure out size wise where to go, I would start with 2 personally and go from there, you could also build some dual opposed 18s in the 7-8 CUFT range with the drivers as well.

the SI wins on value as you can get 2 for the price of the Umax, and it is no slouch of a driver. I have 2 of the 15s in a DO box (SubM Clone) and have heard systems with multiple 18s many times.

Sealed flatpacks are just as easy to put together as the speakers. just need longer clamps, the flatpacks for the Marty sub are slightly harder due to the port but also easu. Chal has really good instructions for them and I believe he will build it for you and ship if you wanted him to http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/1529375-martysub-flatpacks-veneer-flatpacks.html

 

[purbeast0]

yeah i'd definitely trust anubis' opinion on this stuff, i know he's been hardcore into it for a while. he helped convince me to get some of my stuff and i'm very happy that i did go with his recommendations.

what is your total budget? i ended up going with a full JTR setup (5.2), and it ended up being split into 3 different purchases, all used, from 3 different people, after just taking my time and finding some killer deals. i saved probably over $5k by buying used and being patient, and if i had to do it again, i wouldn't do it any differently.

and my wife and i have our first born on the way right now, so we got it out of the way before having to worry about the expenses of a kid hah.

room looks nice though, i'm sure it will turn out great.

i also wouldn't worry too much about the height of the room. i believe my ceiling is like 7'9 or something that, although the height does play into how big you can go with the screen size.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Hi Tiamat =D

or the mechanical room, you could hang double 5/8" dry wall using rsic clips and hat channel to fully decouple it from the studs with green glue sandwiched in between the two drywall layers.

The near-side of this back wall is already finished, but the mechanical room side is still open. If it proves to be a noisy situation, do you think I could do that on the opposite side of the wall with similar effect?

(Unfortunately there are going to be two doors on that back wall for access to the mechanical room and furnace maintenance, so it may be a lost cause to get it really well isolated at this point)

As for screen shape, the room will be dark so the ar of the screen shouldn't matter in terms of goofiness. For aesthetics when not is use, a masking system could be employed, be it dark curtains or some fancy setup.

The goofiness was with the lights on. I think I'll reevaluate this once the paint is done (apparently they finished that today)

I've liked what masking panels have offered for perceived contrast in my current setup, so I'm pretty set on that being a good idea. Just have to figure out the best acoustically transparent version if the FR/FL are going behind the screen too.

I'm pretty interested to see how much having a movie room that's not white is going to be like (it will be my first one).

Can never have enough subwoofer in a theater for purposes of improving bass uniformity, depth of frequency, and overhead. The theater design for my space that I have put on hold due to cost and other priorities calls for four in wall subs in addition to 2 procella p18 with the front end being three procella p815s for a 30'x13'x8' space. Personally, I would spend as much as possible on the room construction if you are serious about this. Room within a room type design considerations are important for home theaters to keep noise out and the theater sound in. Common noise leaks are the HVAC ducts, theater door, staircases, ceiling, and mechanical rooms. With a good acoustically isolated home theater, you will find that even pedestrian equipment will be very enjoyable until you are ready to upgrade.

The theater design for my room artificially narrows the theater down to 13' by the width of the soffit (3') by putting an acoustically transparent wall in and using the area beneath the soffit as a hidden hallway for access to the rear hidden projector/electronics room and the front hidden front speaker room.

Just some brainstorming rambling...

Although we've really intended to make this a movie room for some time, I fully admit to have skimped on the planning for any framing or other structural ways to get the most out of the space.

I think I'm going to chalk that up to "lesson learned" on having these plans more researched when it's time to pull the trigger. We ended up acting kind of fast to get another bedroom constructed in the house and this is part of the whole remodel on that floor.

I guess we'll see how it goes :awe:

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

you need to sound proof/isolation the room, that's one thing I regret that I didn't do it, and it is close to impossible to do that now that I have everything up.

Guess that will have to wait until the next house

Being in the corner of the basement away from bedrooms, 10" foam insulation in walls/ceiling, and in-room treatments is as good as it's going to get at this point I think.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

That's a heck of a lurker post homie :awe:

Not much actual lurking happening honestly, heh

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I'm pretty sure I've built and heard more of the DIY sound group offerings then anyone on AT and maybe on AVS as well. for the $ spent pretty much any of the kits will work and beat out similarly priced commercial offerings.

I would do Seaton or JTRs if the budget allowed however, the Cat 12s and Noesis are amazing speakers

After seeing you (and purbeast0) in as many of the AVSforum posts, I figured you'd have some good feedback for me.

Thank you both for taking a look!

I did some really rough price total for different proposed setups and it ran something like:

$17,000-$20,000 for Seaton
$15,000 for JTR
$5,000 for DIY (+ however many extra hours of my time, depending on whether I find this fun and how much aesthetic detail I put into it)

Being in Madison, WI, I am in a really good location for doing a demo of the JTR and Seaton stuff. I am not in a place financially where I could drop $20k on this system though.

I'm hoping I can get a good step up from my current stuff though :awe:

the 1099 is a great choice if you can get it, I know Erich said he only had a limited amount of the parts left. one of the woofers was a buyout and I don't believe they are making them anymore

if you cant get it the new Sentinel is what I would choose http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-15/fusion15-kit.html
bigger waveguide bigger woofer, ive heard the V1 a bunch of times and they never disappoint, loud clean and dynamic.

I have the volt 8s and they or the 10s will be excellent surrounds

I didn't know that about the 1099.
I saw a reference to "blue woofers" for folks that had pre-ordered, so I had some notion that the parts had changed over time.

I see some references to "pre-order" on these kits in general.
Do you think it's worth inquiring about getting on some sort of list? (I have hesitated to contact Erich seeing how much he's putting into this project and the site re-design time out that's currently happening.

For a backup, it seemed like the Tempest got a lot of love on the forum and certainly has a ton of reviews on the site relative to the Sentinel.

Any downside besides size?

(I'm not as familiar with what you get as you go incrementally larger on these models... any insight for me?)

all you really need is glue and some clamps to put the flatpacks together. more tools help (sander, bradnailer) but that's really it. and Duratex is pretty foolproof

Depending on if the speaker has a preassembled xover offered you may be able to get it straight from DIYSG if not MTG90 on AVS, I believe will assemble them for you

Glad to hear you confirm that.
Clamps and glue sound like something I can handle.

I've soldered to replace some crossovers before, so I think I could muddle through making the crossovers if need be, but I'm leaning toward "easy button" here. Thanks for letting me know about MTG90.

Is that some sort of formal arrangement through ordering price, or do I pack up my components I get myself and send them to MTG90 for a fee?

2 caps or SubM HPs in 1800 CUFT is not crazy, I know people who have more in less space. Hell I have more in less space a lot less space....

anyway a sealed 18" either the SI 18 (http://stereointegrity.com/product/ht18-18-subwoofer/) or the Dayton 18" (HO or ultimax) wants like 4 CUFT sealed and the standard marty sub is larger like 10 CUFT (about the same size as a cap IIRC) should be pretty easy to figure out size wise where to go, I would start with 2 personally and go from there, you could also build some dual opposed 18s in the 7-8 CUFT range with the drivers as well.

the SI wins on value as you can get 2 for the price of the Umax, and it is no slouch of a driver. I have 2 of the 15s in a DO box (SubM Clone) and have heard systems with multiple 18s many times.

Sealed flatpacks are just as easy to put together as the speakers. just need longer clamps, the flatpacks for the Marty sub are slightly harder due to the port but also easu. Chal has really good instructions for them and I believe he will build it for you and ship if you wanted him to http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/1529375-martysub-flatpacks-veneer-flatpacks.html

I think the subs is where I probably need the most advice about what to do.

Something that I should know but don't (since I haven't had a decent sealed sub before) is whether the "air movement" type sensation (particular in near field) is something you mainly get with ported designs.

Any feedback for me on that?

(I have fond memories of my first 10" SVS in a dorm room that I'd like to get back again)

Yet another question:
Is two inuke 6000 units a good idea for a proposed 4x18 setup with the drivers mentioned?
I saw some talk about clone amps of differing varieties as another good option.

Thank you!

 

[JAG87]

Guess that will have to wait until the next house

Being in the corner of the basement away from bedrooms, 10" foam insulation in walls/ceiling, and in-room treatments is as good as it's going to get at this point I think.

If there's not too much stuff on the walls, you can easily glue a second layer of drywall with some green glue. Just gotta move your outlets out and re-cut your baseboards. You can also glue some un-stylish wedge foam on the walls, after having passed the WAF of course

Seriously, like richardycc said, this makes most of the improvement, especially if you have a nice fairly symmetrical room to work with.

Also since you are going with dual subs (good choice), I would flank them along side the front channels. Depending on how you're hooking this all up, you can get full range left and right channels should make for some pretty sweet stereo imaging for music, but since this is 80% movies, you may want to position them differently. LFE tracks are mono after all.


edit: to answer your sub question, sealed subs will move just as much air as ported. But driver sizes and power being equal, ported always has lower response and higher sensitivity.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

yeah i'd definitely trust anubis' opinion on this stuff, i know he's been hardcore into it for a while. he helped convince me to get some of my stuff and i'm very happy that i did go with his recommendations.

what is your total budget? i ended up going with a full JTR setup (5.2), and it ended up being split into 3 different purchases, all used, from 3 different people, after just taking my time and finding some killer deals. i saved probably over $5k by buying used and being patient, and if i had to do it again, i wouldn't do it any differently.

Thanks for helping me through this too. I've seen your name quite a bit on the relevant AVSforum threads too

Total budget isn't really a set amount. If the DIY option didn't exist, I think I would just be slowly doing a Seaton or JTR setup in stages over time.

I've done the used thing before (almost my entire setup right now was bought used / refurbished) and am not opposed to it.

I think I'm going to end up placing some intrinsic value on the DIY approach (albeit the "easy button" variety) to the point where I'm pretty convinced the DIY option sounds like a good idea to me.

I saw a few classified listings for things, but nothing seemed like a particular killer deal (I know I haven't been looking long) and the shipping prices / local pickup on these monsters seems like another hurdle.

Where are the best places to look for these? (AVSforum Classifieds?)

and my wife and i have our first born on the way right now, so we got it out of the way before having to worry about the expenses of a kid hah.

room looks nice though, i'm sure it will turn out great.

i also wouldn't worry too much about the height of the room. i believe my ceiling is like 7'9 or something that, although the height does play into how big you can go with the screen size.

Congrats!

A close to 8' ceiling sounds luxurious to me right now

Indeed, I think this is going to be tricky for the screen height and two rows of seating.
I think the two factors of "screen needs to be kind of low on the wall" and "second row of seating can't be too high because of low ceiling height" could result in a compounding problem.

I'll know more when I do some rough testing

 

[purbeast0]

I'll just let you know the prices i spent on my JTR stuff for some reference.

3 Triple 12's - $4700 shipped
2 captivator 2400's (passive version) - $2200 (picked them up 4 hours away round trip)
2 Triple 8's - $700 (picked them up 8 hours away round trip)

i found all of them on avs classifieds, and just from asking and talking in the jtr thread. i had no clue about jtr until anubis pointed me in the direction of the captivator deal on there. i was thinking about getting like a velodyne or one of the normal retail brands. so happy i didn't go with that because i got so much more bang for the buck.

so that is $7600 total for the 7 jtr speakers. the noesis were new when i got my stuff, so i think people were unloading them because they wanted to upgrade to the noesis.

but yeah, if you aren't in a hurry, you could get a killer deal on stuff. i mean the triple 8's were $800/piece brand new when i got mine, and i got them for $700 a pair, granted, i had the past year model, but they were for surrounds so it was fine by me.

 

[Anubis]

The blue woofer thing is just what Eminence does with some of their woofers. I have the blue ones in my SEOS 10s and purplish ones in the Fusion 8s. Erich did a batch order from them with black cones and that's what the preorder was about as he had to order a ton of them to get them to do it.

The mid woofer is the one with limited stock. However reading this today it seems he may have found a replacement. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...configurable-seos-design-24.html#post30547609

Last page hes talking about picking up the pallet of new woofers and that Tux has confirmed they will work (Tux designed the speaker)

The main reasons you don't see reviews of the larger speakers are because people are horrid at reviewing things they like and they are big. the larger offerings did not sell as well because of size. I built the tempests I love them but even they are not small at 2 CUFT. Sure they are shorter then many speakers, I know you used to have the AV123 Onix Rockets a lot shorter then those but also a lot wider and thicker.

Search the forum for posts about the SEOS "Cheap Thrill" it used the same 12" horn as the sentinel V1 and a celestion buyout woofer so it was really cheap. People love those as well and there might be more posts about them. the Sent V1 used a B&C woofer that was higher quality and I believer it played lower, the Sent will almost run fill range if you wanted it to. the advantage the V2 has over the V1 is that it uses the larger 15" horn (I can get you a pic of the 12 vs 15 if you want) its big. lower crossover point and better directivity.


The larger the horn the better the directivity control and the lower you can cross the compression driver over to the woofer. these are the rough xover points of the horn, based on size driving the xover point lower makes the speaker act more like a single point source.

10: 1450Hz
12: 1300Hz
15: 1000 Hz
18: 700Hz
24: 450hz

If you are not familiar with speakers based on horns/waveguides I suggest hearing some. just go to JTR and listen to the Noesis, and avoid klipsch (way to harsh IMO) they have a really different feel vs domes. More "live" and clean sounding.

There is also the big "ill demo my speakers for you thread" on AVS, you may find someone close to you that has the SEOS stuff

Just message Erich with any questions you have. the man is a robot and will get back to you

Having MTG do crossover work for you is something you would arrange yourself, just PM him on the forums, but generally I think you get the xover parts with your kit and send them to him and he builds it and send it back for some sort of fee. Erich may also just direct ship to him, im not totally sure. Hes a cool dude either way, college age, works for Seaton now im pretty sure

As for building simply find one of my build threads on here or AVS, its really straight forward and I did the first cpl with just clamps and glue and a sander. later ones started getting more complicated.

You can get the air movement feel from a sealed sub if you get a large enough one and sit right on top of it "CHUCKLE" (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1609714-sibuna-s-sealed-si24-build.html)

but generally that is a feature of a ported sub, if you want that type of feeling back then going ported is what you should do. the Caps can move a ton of air and I would assume the MartySub will as well as its a really similar design

the main benefit of sealed is that they "can" be made smaller and they can play lower when EQed but take more power to do so. If you don't really care about stuff under 18 Hz or so ported will get you to it easier and cheaper with less power but in a larger box

the inuke 6ks are solid amps. 2 of them will do well but the important thing is to make sure the impedance of whatever subs you build matches with the amps. the 6k wont do 2 ohms per channel, so as long as you are not feeding them a 2 ohm load you should be fine. they also cant be bridged. the DSP models also have a pretty decent DSP. I own the inuke 1K DSP and use it on my to anarchy tapped horns.

another solid option if the Peavy IPR 7500, more power and will do 2 ohms if needed. neither of those are quiet amps however, the inuke has annoying orange lights on it and the Peavy has super annoying blue ones. Behringer EP4000s also work well and are cheap but are less powerful vs the other 2 mentioned. there are a ton of amp choices out there. best to figure out what exactly you are gonna do for subs and then get the best one to match.

the LG Clone amps are interesting. I have a FP14000 clone, its a 14000 watt amp, most run them in 4 ohm stereo mode @ ~4400 WPC, they currently offer insane value but truly are a Chinese copy of the real LG amps. older ones were not 2 ohm stable, they claim the new ones are but I have my doubts. Some people love them, other use something else out of fear of their house burning down. I got mine used so I knew it worked. If you get one new there is no guarantee that it will be 100% and dealing with them is not easy. but if you have a working one and can give it the right load they are really nice. also very loud

the FP10Q is a 4 channel version that puts out less power but is similar to above

 

[Anubis]

I'll just let you know the prices i spent on my JTR stuff for some reference.

3 Triple 12's - $4700 shipped
2 captivator 2400's (passive version) - $2200 (picked them up 4 hours away round trip)
2 Triple 8's - $700 (picked them up 8 hours away round trip)

i found all of them on avs classifieds, and just from asking and talking in the jtr thread. i had no clue about jtr until anubis pointed me in the direction of the captivator deal on there. i was thinking about getting like a velodyne or one of the normal retail brands. so happy i didn't go with that because i got so much more bang for the buck.

so that is $7600 total for the 7 jtr speakers. the noesis were new when i got my stuff, so i think people were unloading them because they wanted to upgrade to the noesis.

but yeah, if you aren't in a hurry, you could get a killer deal on stuff. i mean the triple 8's were $800/piece brand new when i got mine, and i got them for $700 a pair, granted, i had the past year model, but they were for surrounds so it was fine by me.

yea the AVS classifieds seem to be a revolving door of people constantly selling and upgrading JTR stuff

right now there are people offloading the Noesis to go to the new RT15, so there might be deals again, but the noesis were more expensive vs the standard to start, so everything went up in price

 

[Anubis]

case in point
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/1820874-fs-3-x-2012-jtr-triple-12-a.html

that's a hard deal to beat, but you do live pretty far away

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

If there's not too much stuff on the walls, you can easily glue a second layer of drywall with some green glue. Just gotta move your outlets out and re-cut your baseboards. You can also glue some un-stylish wedge foam on the walls, after having passed the WAF of course

Seriously, like richardycc said, this makes most of the improvement, especially if you have a nice fairly symmetrical room to work with.

Wedge foam I could do.

I have pre-approval to make something as ridiculous as this happen, since that's what I already have on hand (and I could add to it / modify the approach if it makes sense)

Also since you are going with dual subs (good choice), I would flank them along side the front channels. Depending on how you're hooking this all up, you can get full range left and right channels should make for some pretty sweet stereo imaging for music, but since this is 80% movies, you may want to position them differently. LFE tracks are mono after all.


edit: to answer your sub question, sealed subs will move just as much air as ported. But driver sizes and power being equal, ported always has lower response and higher sensitivity.

What I have in my head for a first thing to try is...

Signal from AVR to y-splitter to AS-EQ1 to amp to subs

(I am not sure if having the AS-EQ1 doing it's Audyssey XT 32 thing makes the most sense over a manual approach with the DSP in the inuke)

For positioning, I was thinking...

Two subs in the front (1 line of the AS-EQ1 to one of the inukes)
Two subs in the back directly behind the 2nd seating row (2nd line of the AS-EQ1 to the other inuke)

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I'll just let you know the prices i spent on my JTR stuff for some reference.

3 Triple 12's - $4700 shipped
2 captivator 2400's (passive version) - $2200 (picked them up 4 hours away round trip)
2 Triple 8's - $700 (picked them up 8 hours away round trip)

i found all of them on avs classifieds, and just from asking and talking in the jtr thread. i had no clue about jtr until anubis pointed me in the direction of the captivator deal on there. i was thinking about getting like a velodyne or one of the normal retail brands. so happy i didn't go with that because i got so much more bang for the buck.

so that is $7600 total for the 7 jtr speakers. the noesis were new when i got my stuff, so i think people were unloading them because they wanted to upgrade to the noesis.

but yeah, if you aren't in a hurry, you could get a killer deal on stuff. i mean the triple 8's were $800/piece brand new when i got mine, and i got them for $700 a pair, granted, i had the past year model, but they were for surrounds so it was fine by me.

Thanks for the context about how much savings can be expected if I come across good deals!

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

The blue woofer thing is just what Eminence does with some of their woofers. I have the blue ones in my SEOS 10s and purplish ones in the Fusion 8s. Erich did a batch order from them with black cones and that's what the preorder was about as he had to order a ton of them to get them to do it.

The mid woofer is the one with limited stock. However reading this today it seems he may have found a replacement. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...configurable-seos-design-24.html#post30547609

Last page hes talking about picking up the pallet of new woofers and that Tux has confirmed they will work (Tux designed the speaker)

Great

The main reasons you don't see reviews of the larger speakers are because people are horrid at reviewing things they like and they are big. the larger offerings did not sell as well because of size. I built the tempests I love them but even they are not small at 2 CUFT. Sure they are shorter then many speakers, I know you used to have the AV123 Onix Rockets a lot shorter then those but also a lot wider and thicker.

Search the forum for posts about the SEOS "Cheap Thrill" it used the same 12" horn as the sentinel V1 and a celestion buyout woofer so it was really cheap. People love those as well and there might be more posts about them. the Sent V1 used a B&C woofer that was higher quality and I believer it played lower, the Sent will almost run fill range if you wanted it to. the advantage the V2 has over the V1 is that it uses the larger 15" horn (I can get you a pic of the 12 vs 15 if you want) its big. lower crossover point and better directivity.


The larger the horn the better the directivity control and the lower you can cross the compression driver over to the woofer. these are the rough xover points of the horn, based on size driving the xover point lower makes the speaker act more like a single point source.

10: 1450Hz
12: 1300Hz
15: 1000 Hz
18: 700Hz
24: 450hz

If you are not familiar with speakers based on horns/waveguides I suggest hearing some. just go to JTR and listen to the Noesis, and avoid klipsch (way to harsh IMO) they have a really different feel vs domes. More "live" and clean sounding.

There is also the big "ill demo my speakers for you thread" on AVS, you may find someone close to you that has the SEOS stuff

Thanks for the detailed response!

Yep, currently have Rockets.
That makes sense about the reviews being more sparse for the larger ones.

FYI, I've read through the intro and attached documents here, so I think I have some of the basics down in terms of what the waveguide is good at and how placement / toe-in is recommended.

No need for the 12 vs 15 pic, I think I have perused through enough of the build threads to get a sense of that. (Thanks for the offer though!)

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...22-hey-guys-we-need-little-rallying-here.html

I've heard some Klipsch options before (not even the "good" ones) and indeed did not find them appealing. I've read a bunch of times that they're not representative of the SEOS approach, so I might very well take the hour drive over to JTR to get a better idea of what I might be getting myself into.

Just message Erich with any questions you have. the man is a robot and will get back to you

Having MTG do crossover work for you is something you would arrange yourself, just PM him on the forums, but generally I think you get the xover parts with your kit and send them to him and he builds it and send it back for some sort of fee. Erich may also just direct ship to him, im not totally sure. Hes a cool dude either way, college age, works for Seaton now im pretty sure

As for building simply find one of my build threads on here or AVS, its really straight forward and I did the first cpl with just clamps and glue and a sander. later ones started getting more complicated.

Thanks for the context tips there. It's easy to get overwhelmed in those monster threads over there.

You can get the air movement feel from a sealed sub if you get a large enough one and sit right on top of it "CHUCKLE" (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1609714-sibuna-s-sealed-si24-build.html)

but generally that is a feature of a ported sub, if you want that type of feeling back then going ported is what you should do. the Caps can move a ton of air and I would assume the MartySub will as well as its a really similar design

the main benefit of sealed is that they "can" be made smaller and they can play lower when EQed but take more power to do so. If you don't really care about stuff under 18 Hz or so ported will get you to it easier and cheaper with less power but in a larger box

Sounds like flat-pack MartySubs are a good idea then.
I think I can handle that.

I'll take a look at the dimensions and guess about whether I should go for oven or refrigerator size.

If I get the huge ones, I'll pretty much have to put them in predetermined locations I think.
If I have four of them and treat the room in a similar way to what I've shown for my previous apartment theater, it seems that could mitigate the "bad room location" issue. Does that seem right to you?

the inuke 6ks are solid amps. 2 of them will do well but the important thing is to make sure the impedance of whatever subs you build matches with the amps. the 6k wont do 2 ohms per channel, so as long as you are not feeding them a 2 ohm load you should be fine. they also cant be bridged. the DSP models also have a pretty decent DSP. I own the inuke 1K DSP and use it on my to anarchy tapped horns.

another solid option if the Peavy IPR 7500, more power and will do 2 ohms if needed. neither of those are quiet amps however, the inuke has annoying orange lights on it and the Peavy has super annoying blue ones. Behringer EP4000s also work well and are cheap but are less powerful vs the other 2 mentioned. there are a ton of amp choices out there. best to figure out what exactly you are gonna do for subs and then get the best one to match.

the LG Clone amps are interesting. I have a FP14000 clone, its a 14000 watt amp, most run them in 4 ohm stereo mode @ ~4400 WPC, they currently offer insane value but truly are a Chinese copy of the real LG amps. older ones were not 2 ohm stable, they claim the new ones are but I have my doubts. Some people love them, other use something else out of fear of their house burning down. I got mine used so I knew it worked. If you get one new there is no guarantee that it will be 100% and dealing with them is not easy. but if you have a working one and can give it the right load they are really nice. also very loud

the FP10Q is a 4 channel version that puts out less power but is similar to above

The FP14000 clone thread made me nervous. Maybe that's because I started at the beginning of the thread though when only one guy had one and the talk quickly went to various certifications lacking.

I think the "subs first, then figure out the amps" plan seems reasonable.

If I end up with two loud amps, I think I could pretty easily put one (or both) in the mechanical room and one outside the room on the left side (in the laundry room) to keep the fan noise down.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

yea the AVS classifieds seem to be a revolving door of people constantly selling and upgrading JTR stuff

right now there are people offloading the Noesis to go to the new RT15, so there might be deals again, but the noesis were more expensive vs the standard to start, so everything went up in price

case in point
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-audio-gear/1820874-fs-3-x-2012-jtr-triple-12-a.html

that's a hard deal to beat, but you do live pretty far away

I don't think I can get pre-approval for a drive that far with baby on the way

I know this is subjective, but if I were to say, get $10,000 in used JTR gear (imagining that Noesis stuff might come up) vs. $5000 DIY using the ballpark of stuff I'm considering, what kind of tangible differences might there be?

Is it a "some will like A better than B", or is there anything more concrete you could tell me based on your experience?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Progress as of today

 

[Anubis]

its too subjective to tell someone they will liek A over B, you would have to hear them for yourself

and i already had the pic

SEOS 15 sitting on the Tempest 12

 

[Anubis]

yea that ceiling really messes with you but as long as you do an AT screen you could get something pretty large in there

 

[Anubis]

as for the marty flatpacks all of them have really similar output and the Mini, micro and cube can be made pretty small

someone prob has a design for a ported 15 as well that could be made smaller and still have the output you want

 

[Tiamat]

Yoyo,

Sound isolation is the most critical item of a home theater because once the theater is up, its a bitch to fix. With the room minimally framed out and sheetrocked, you still have ample opportunity to at least keep noise out of the theater so you can better hear whisper quiet scenes without getting deaf on an upcoming explosion scene. The double drywall/green glue/ rsic clips and hat channel works for both sides of the wall. Also for furnace room access doors, if you spend a bit more money and buy an exterior grade door, those are heavier and block sound much better, plus they come with gasket seals. The biggest point of noise from your furnace room will be through the standard hollow doors with ungasketed floor gaps. Depending on local codes, your mechanical room might need to be vented or circulated, if that is the case, pick a non theater area to do that.

Once your mechanical room is sealed off, the noise entering the theater should be minimal especially if everyone is in the theater and not stomping about upstairs. Noise will still leave the theater, but that may not be possible to fix anyways. Any door in the theater leading out of the theater or towards a noise source should be a heavy door with gasket seals in order to get the best noise isolation you can get without any further structural planning.

Unfortunately for me, my design, amazing as it is, calls for 110k$ room construction and finish carpentry; and that may never happen. As the years pass, so many other things come up as priorities for me (dog, wood working shop, car, maybe a kid, a future kitchen remodel... It never ends). I wish you the best luck!

BTW, large clamps cost money lol. I've purchased some for my woodworking hobby and you need a lot of clamps. The F style clamp is inexpensive and is good for clamping items where you have a support wood piece to keep things square (e.g. most subwoofers have internal baffles that provide a square framework). The k style clamp is expensive, but very heavy duty and the jaws are always parallel which allows for even pressure across the entire clamp face (useful for gluing multiple boards together to make one large board like a kitchen table or cutting board). I hope you can borrow clamps from somebody because if you are building something like a flat pack tapped horn or similar, you will need something like 30x 2'-3' wide clamps. Screws can help, but I generally prefer clean designs with no external screws since in the end, it is the glue that provides the joint strength, screws and nails simply act as "a third hand" to keep things in place while the glue sets. This depends on the particular flat pack design though...


Oh, BTW, don't underestimate the noise your projector makes. You may have to make a box for it to sit in and directs the noise out of the theater while providing ample cooling.

Hi Tiamat =D



The near-side of this back wall is already finished, but the mechanical room side is still open. If it proves to be a noisy situation, do you think I could do that on the opposite side of the wall with similar effect?

(Unfortunately there are going to be two doors on that back wall for access to the mechanical room and furnace maintenance, so it may be a lost cause to get it really well isolated at this point)



The goofiness was with the lights on. I think I'll reevaluate this once the paint is done (apparently they finished that today)

I've liked what masking panels have offered for perceived contrast in my current setup, so I'm pretty set on that being a good idea. Just have to figure out the best acoustically transparent version if the FR/FL are going behind the screen too.

I'm pretty interested to see how much having a movie room that's not white is going to be like (it will be my first one).



Although we've really intended to make this a movie room for some time, I fully admit to have skimped on the planning for any framing or other structural ways to get the most out of the space.

I think I'm going to chalk that up to "lesson learned" on having these plans more researched when it's time to pull the trigger. We ended up acting kind of fast to get another bedroom constructed in the house and this is part of the whole remodel on that floor.

I guess we'll see how it goes :awe: