Best long term storage medium?

[SunnyD]

I'm looking for the best option in terms of long term permanent mass storage without the need for a specific storage environment (rh/temp/lighting/etc). By long term, I'm talking longer than my lifetime preferably. I've read that CD-R's/DVD-R's actually can degrade over time (some estimates put a lifetime at 15-20 years for an "average" disc before it's organic layer starts to break down).

Basically, with digital photography/video these days, my wife is capable of filling several gigabytes of data in a few hours. I'd like them to last as long as those old photographs in a shoebox taken 70 years ago... but obviously retaining 100% digital quality over the years.

Suggestions?

 

[Rifter]

you want these, they are supposed to last 100 years, ill let you know in 95 years if thats true

http://ncix.com/products/index...1101&manufacture=Kodak

 

[Idontcare]

Naturally the challenge isn't the creation of digital archival media but rather the challenge is to address the question of how to ensure something exists 50-100 yrs from now which can interface to the media and read the data off of it.

You could have a shoebox full of perfectly preserved punchcards from the mid 1960's and it would do you no good unless you are ready to rebuild yourself a punchcard reader.

I'm pretty sure my parent's 5MB harddrive from 1985 currently stowed in their garage has perfectly readable data on the platters...but I'd be pretty hard-pressed to find a computer that functioned and could connect to the hard drive. (no doubt I could pay someone a zillion dollars to extract the info for me, given time and money)

I had this crazy idea of using those Iomega Jazz drive disks for backups, etc, a decade ago. Utter waste of time and money. Still have the disks, got no drive.

So the question you really need to address is: how far into the future do you anticipate the archival media needing to be accessible and what are you going to do to ensure the system for doing so still exists and is operational?

Online digital storage (in multiplicates of course) is probably the safest bet in this regard.

 

[bobdole369]

old photographs in a shoebox taken 70 years ago

Photographs never last 70 years. You'll notice fade, color change, contrast shifts, etc on all prints from the 50s and 60s that aren't kept dark and cool. You will see serious problems even if they are kept dark and cool. Archival quality just didn't exist.

Film photos taken today will suffer the same fate - roughly 20 years and out.

Kodachrome is awesome at this (dark storage time of 100+ years), but other film slides or color negatives will seriously start to screw up starting at about 10 years.

I don't know of a solution that is feasible, it certainly isn't CD's, DVD's, or prints (or negatives) unless you convert her to shoot kodachrome 25 that isn't made anymore.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: bobdole369

old photographs in a shoebox taken 70 years ago

Photographs never last 70 years. You'll notice fade, color change, contrast shifts, etc on all prints from the 50s and 60s that aren't kept dark and cool. You will see serious problems even if they are kept dark and cool. Archival quality just didn't exist.

I already addressed that part. They become nostalgic but still completely usable if kept well enough. Digital on the other hand, well there's something different all together once bits start dying.

Originally posted by: Rifterut
you want these, they are supposed to last 100 years, ill let you know in 95 years if thats true

http://ncix.com/products/index...1101&manufacture=Kodak

Note: It says "UP TO 100 years". That means stored in a climate controlled light-proof box will get you close to 100 years.

Originally posted by: IdontcareSo the question you really need to address is: how far into the future do you anticipate the archival media needing to be accessible and what are you going to do to ensure the system for doing so still exists and is operational?

The best long term solution that will last well into the next long term solution that will be invented. Optical discs are what - about 20 years old now? And ubiquitus, and still pretty much backward compatible with what came out 20 years ago - and likely will be for quite some time. Tape backup is still pretty widespread. We still have 15 year old IDE ports on most of our motherboards. You see where I'm going with this. Basically, long term high quality limited failure rate storage that will last until the next high quality long term storage medium becomes mainstream enough to make it cost effective to transition to that.

 

[Idontcare]

Then in that case I'd go with a regular standard SATA hard-drives in Esata enclosure. Do everything in duplicate.

The drives are only powered on when you want them to be, so motor lifetime is maximized.

You buy two for redundancy (two complete, separate, but identical in every way Esata enclosures...this way you have duplicate power cables, transformers, etc to mix and match should anything go south) and repeat as necessary as the drives get full. Buy your next set of two when the first set are full, and so on.

Hard drives will be far more mechanically robust to the environment (hard, sealed, can take a beating, mostly crush resistant, etc) than any other media type you can come across - be it tape cartridges, archival DVD's, etc. They'll even survive being submerged in water provided you let them fully drive before exposing the to a voltage differential (e.g. powering them on) and provided they weren't submerged for enough time as to cause excessive corrosion. (pack them in water-tight laminated vacuum bags or freezer ziplock bags if you are overly concerned with submersion events)

Or put it all online where everything are belong to the guvment anyways and rest assured you'll always have access to it provided someone in your family has the right security clearance and works at the NSA to access their archives.

 

[taltamir]

CDs don't really last 15-20 years... thats bullcrap.
I had 1/3 of my 600 CD-R collection develop errors or completely unreadable in 2-5 years (some were 5 year old, some 2 year old)... thats when i ditched CDs as a medium for data storage.

As mentioned before, NOTHING out there is reliable for DATA storage, and even if it was you can't read it... the solution I am using right now is ZFS raidz2 (raid6) arrays with updating. replacing the technology with modern tech as needed, and the ZFS keeps it all perfect by repairing any damage...
BTW HDD have both bitrot AND cosmic ray bitflip... a cosmic ray can flip a bit on a HDD changing it from 0 to 1 or vice versa. I have my ZFS array correct one such error every 2 months on my array. So do NOT just trust your data... barring ZFS's built in file hashing and repair, you could just make .par2 recovery files for your data for manual repair.

http://ncix.com/products/index...1101&manufacture=Kodak[/quote]

Note: It says "UP TO 100 years". That means stored in a climate controlled light-proof box will get you close to 100 years.[/quote]

No it means stored in a climate controller light proof box will get you UP to 100 years... that means that it is GUARANTEED to NOT last 100. It will likely fail sooner, but it is 100% going to fail a 100 years from now.

Just like CDs are GUARANTEED to fail within 20 years. they could fail withing 2 though. a lot of them will...

BTW, I kept my 600 CD collection in a light proof and climate controller conditions.

 

[Zap]

I think the best way is to find a way that is good today (optical or HDD), have backups of the backups and every few years find what is at that time a decent storage medium and copy stuff to it. Rinse, repeat.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: Zap
I think the best way is to find a way that is good today (optical or HDD), have backups of the backups and every few years find what is at that time a decent storage medium and copy stuff to it. Rinse, repeat.

+1 This is what I do. Basically archiving can not be viewed as a static process, it is a dynamic process which requires the archivar to be involved in the maintenance aspects of the process.

A decade ago I had ten CD's (~7GB) containing all my archived family photo's (scanned in with a silly spendy scanner)...as soon as it became cost-viable to purchase two identical hard-drives with capacity that exceeded the then archive size (~20GB) I migrated to that. Then it was a step up to dual-40GB, then dual-80's and so on. Now I run dual-500GB's.

If you take the time to maintain your archives by migrating them to the latest proven-stable technology (don't go SSD or perpendicular spindle just yet!) which has the capacity and system interface known to be relevant for at least another five years then I think you'd be pretty safe and robust.

But there's really nothing long-term about today's consumer storage devices, its not a design consideration worthy of engineering resources at any stage of the product development cycle.

And I'm fine with it, I don't want my 1TB drives to cost me an extra 20% because the manufacturer decided to beef up the design team as needed to develop their drives so they'd last a millennia instead of 5-10 yrs.

NPV vs. NFV favors the 5yr device that is purchased as needed when needed.

 

[Sidrack]

I was thinking about the same thing... what about external Hard Drives? If you use them once and do not deal with them again (unless your main computer is broken), it's safe to assume they will last for a very long time. If they are not DOA, they will die from old age or after a few months/weeks of use. Which is not the same if you are moving your files to them just once or twice.

I am affraid this is the cheapest way to backup your data. Discs are not a choice anymore for me cause they are going to waste a lot of space in my room and time to burn/keep records of what's inside of them. Plus, they are all very fragile.

 

[Jumpem]

I use 4 1TB drives to keep copies of 1TB of data.

 

[JASTECH]

taltamir, Then you had crappy discs! For all my important photos and docs I use Kodak Gold and the like. I read the CD/DVD to make sure it is the MFG I want and read lot numbers ect. as this will tell you how good the media is. I would use the Kodak or the higher quality Taiyo Yuden media. These are tested and I have this media that is over 20 years old and the media will test (using software I have) within specs. So I have stuff from the early 1800's on the media.

Thanks, JASTECH

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: JASTECH
So I have stuff from the early 1800's on the media.

Apparently some significant gains have been made in dyes and manufacturing of burnable CDs and DVDs over the last few years. There are media that claim to be quite long-lived.

As noted, one problem is to how to be SURE that the media you buy meets your expectations. Most companies buy from many different vendors and media quality can change without notice.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Sidrack
I was thinking about the same thing... what about external Hard Drives? If you use them once and do not deal with them again (unless your main computer is broken), it's safe to assume they will last for a very long time. If they are not DOA, they will die from old age or after a few months/weeks of use. Which is not the same if you are moving your files to them just once or twice.

I am affraid this is the cheapest way to backup your data. Discs are not a choice anymore for me cause they are going to waste a lot of space in my room and time to burn/keep records of what's inside of them. Plus, they are all very fragile.

my dad had a working external drive, it just sat on the table... it was turned off 2 months ago and we forgot to turn it back on... it was working when turned off, when turned back on it somehow had the click of death.

Besides which, drives are PROVEN to have data degredation due to bitrot and cosmic rays, you must use some sort of verification and repair algorithms like parchive or rar parity (an implementation of parchive) to detect and repair errors occasionally.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: JASTECH
taltamir, Then you had crappy discs! For all my important photos and docs I use Kodak Gold and the like. I read the CD/DVD to make sure it is the MFG I want and read lot numbers ect. as this will tell you how good the media is. I would use the Kodak or the higher quality Taiyo Yuden media. These are tested and I have this media that is over 20 years old and the media will test (using software I have) within specs. So I have stuff from the early 1800's on the media.

Thanks, JASTECH

today i use taiyo yuden as well as very high quality burners (tested to produce very low correctable errors during burn)... back then i just used whatever was in compUSA (but not the generic stuff, but recommended brands like verbatim and maxtor). so what?

There is a huge difference between "CDs last 20 years" and "Taiyo yuden CDs burned on a high quality burner at low speed and verified to have low or no correctable errors stored in a light proof, airproof, temperature and humidity controlled environment will potentially last 20 years" (no way to know YET, or are you saying your disks are all 20 years old already?)

CDs in GENERAL don't last 20 years... if you manage to get the highest quality disks in the world burned on top quality burner with the right setting and stored perfectly they MIGHT, and that has yet to be proven. But the claim that "CDs" in general last 20 years is bull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercentenarian

Just because some people manage to reach 110-122 years of age doesn't mean "humans live for 110-120 years" is an accurate statement.

 

[tcsenter]

There is short term, long term, and long term (archival) rated media.

Short term = a few years
Long term = 20 years
Long term archival = 100+ years, backed by standard longevity projection tests (e.g. ISO-18927, ANSI IT9.27-1999)

In addition to Kodak, there is:

[*]MAM-A (Mitsui) Gold Archive
[*]Verbatim UltraLife Gold Archive (Verbatim DataLife Plus and UltraLife is Mitsubishi-MKM, the cheaper stuff is now made by Moser Baer and others)
[*]FalconMedia Pro Gold (MKM)
[*]Delkin Archival Gold (rebranded Kodak, MAM-A, or MKM)

If you're drawing conclusions about the longevity of media that costs over $1.00 per disc based on results with media that costs 10 cents per disc, then you're retarded.

The best long term storage medium is the hard disk, bar none. You can drop it down a flight of stairs and the data is still there. The drive might not work but the platters are still intact and could be sent to a professional data recovery firm like Ontrack with very high probability of success.

 

[Colt45]

I keep all my crucial data on paper tape.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: tcsenter
There is short term, long term, and long term (archival) rated media.

Short term = a few years
Long term = 20 years
Long term archival = 100+ years, backed by standard longevity projection tests (e.g. ISO-18927, ANSI IT9.27-1999)

In addition to Kodak, there is:

[*]MAM-A (Mitsui) Gold Archive
[*]Verbatim UltraLife Gold Archive (which are probably made by Mitsui)
[*]Delkin Archival Gold (almost certain to be rebranded Kodak or MAM-A)

If you're drawing conclusions about the longevity of media that costs over $1.00 per disc based on results with media that costs 10 cents per disc, then you're retarded.

The best long term storage medium is the hard disk, bar none. You can drop it down a flight of stairs and the data is still there. The drive might not work but the platters are still intact and could be sent to a professional data recovery firm like Ontrack with very high probability of success.

And if you're drawing conclusions about the longevity of media that costs 10 cents per disc based on results with media that costs over $1.00 per disc, then you're a fool.

What is your point? has anyone here claimed that expensive archival media is the same as 10 cent media? I will tell you though that "standard longetivity tests" are of arguable value, because the fact is it has NOT been 100+ years since the invention of the computer, much less optical media that claims 100+ year longetivity. HDD boast 1.4 million hours MTBF (159.8 YEARS) to 2 million hours (228.3 years). How long do hard drives last in reality?

Let us not forget readability... lets say that 50 years ago you spend a bundle on "Long term archival punch card storage, backed by standard longevity projection tests"... and lets say your punchcards are as good today as they were 50 years ago... do you still have access to a punchcard reading machine?

Heck, do you still have 5 inch floppy drive to read those "archival level floppies" or a 1.4 inch drive to read those archival level 1.4 inch floppies? How about your archival grade VHS and Beta tapes? well those actually DO exist, but are hard to come by, especially for a HOME USER.

Bottom line is that archival is an active state, where backups are verified and replaced, and technologies migrated all the time.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: Idontcare
I'm pretty sure my parent's 5MB harddrive from 1985 currently stowed in their garage has perfectly readable data on the platters...but I'd be pretty hard-pressed to find a computer that functioned and could connect to the hard drive. (no doubt I could pay someone a zillion dollars to extract the info for me, given time and money)

That drive would be either ST-506/412 or ESDI interface. And yes, there are at least 20 ST-506/412 and ESDI ISA controller cards supporting RLL and MFM hard drives on Ebay with DOA guarantees as we speak. There are also several ST-506 to SCSI converter boards. The only thing left is to obtain a working mainboard/computer with ISA slots, which aren't difficult to find at all, and you're in business. Missing cables? They can be rigged by hand in a snap using ribbon cable.

do you still have 5 inch floppy drive to read those "archival level floppies" or a 1.4 inch drive to read those archival level 1.4 inch floppies?

Had I chosen 5.25 floppies for archival, I would have 'archived' a couple drives to go with them, just like many universities, government agencies, and companies kept a punch card reader in storage for years or until all punch cards had been transferred/migrated to something else. In the unlikely event both 5.25 floppy drives were to mysteriously become non-functional while in storage, I think I've got it covered:

Sealed 5.25" floppy drives (never opened/used)

51 results for 5.25 inch floppy drives

Similarly, if I chose CD/DVD for archival (I would not), I'd put a couple CD/DVD drives in storage. If the drive's interface were becoming obsolete, I would have a number of options:

[*]Buy a couple CD/DVD drives that support the newer interface, replace the old drives
[*]Buy a controller card that supports the older interface
[*]Buy an adapter/converter/bridge board
[*]Transfer/migrate my archived stuff to something newer

Unless someone is in a coma for 20 years, there will be options readily available to bridge old and new.

How about your archival grade VHS and Beta tapes? well those actually DO exist, but are hard to come by...

Not really. Plenty of Betamax decks on Ebay. VHS decks are still shipping. And plenty of firms still offering transfer from Betamax or VHS to CD/DVD using high-end professional equipment.

 

[JASTECH]

I still do have 5.25 drives and floppy's to match. I still have my IBM complete with printer and DOS 3.0

And Yes I have media stored on some 20+ year old CD's and they can still be read and written too. I still have a few HP Gold Cd's RW too and would yo like me to do a CD quality test on them and post it?

tcsenter, Thanks for the assist on this friend. I am also a member of CDRLabs, CDRFreaks and a couple others. Good platters will hold your DATA. Just buy the Archival rated CD's that are not 10 cents but more like the 1.00 to 2.00 each that I have

Thanks, JASTECH

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: Colt45
I keep all my crucial data on paper tape.

Sounds like a plan, unless Freddy Kruger calls.

Originally posted by: Idontcare
I'm pretty sure my parent's 5MB harddrive from 1985 currently stowed in their garage has perfectly readable data on the platters...but I'd be pretty hard-pressed to find a computer that functioned and could connect to the hard drive. (no doubt I could pay someone a zillion dollars to extract the info for me, given time and money).

Before you spend a zillion dollars, call me. I'll do it for half price.

I still have a couple of old ISA motherboards with CPU and memory, some MFM and RLL controllers, MFM cable sets, 5 1/4 floppy drives, floppy controller, and floppy cables.

 

[Rifter]

I have used the Kodak gold CDR's in the past and have some over 10 years old, I Still have windows 95 original disc and 2 backups. They still work, also have windows98SE original and 2 backups, all still function fine, i used one of the windows 95 dics last week to reformat my mothers 233MMX

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: JASTECH
tcsenter, Thanks for the assist on this friend. I am also a member of CDRLabs, CDRFreaks and a couple others.

I'm not sure how much assistance I am, I personally wouldn't use nor recommend CD/DVD for archival purposes, not even the gold stuff.

Hard drives make far more sense because of their extremely protective housing, shock and impact resistance, and overall robustness. Case in point; Ontrack was able to recover over 99% of the data from one of Columbia's hard drives after the shuttle came apart at a speed of 12,000 MPH and falling 30 miles to earth.

Sure, the drive is going to be non-operational after exposure to far lesser forces or perhaps even fail without exposure to any damaging forces, but the data will be recoverable. And after all, its not about whether the device will be OPERATING for 20...30...50 years. Its all about the damned DATA.

 

[Idontcare]

Bit Rot, American Scientist

A nice read.

 

[California Roll]

I stocked up on a ton of the Kodak Gold CDRs when they were on sale a long time ago. My plan was to archive and back up important files and photos. I probably have about 200 left still sealed and unopened.

I went from 5.25 floppy -> 3.5 floppy -> Jazz discs -> CDR -> DVDR -> external drive storage (3 drive duplicates). I'll probably transfer to another medium (or 5) within my lifetime.