Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
So, you think science will eventually collect raw data about the initial condition of the universe?
Yes, I do... which will only lead to more questions, of course, just as my man Hawking pointed out! those questions will lead to further
scientific research, etc etc ad infinitum.
Through continued research using and discovering "raw data."
This initial state is the only difference between the two hypotheses.
Not true. Only one of them involves an unfalsifiable variable. Guess which one!
The 'god' variable does nothing in my example.
Other than make the entire hypothesis
impossible to test scientifically, you're right!
It is simply one method for explaining how hypothesis #2 might occur. In fact, I could leave god out of it altogether and ask how you could discern between a true big bang and something that created the same universe as the big bang but started as a non-singular entity.
That would have been much more intelligent of you, but it would have also led to two hypothesis that CAN be tested scientifically *gasp* - thus destroying your entire argument that the choice is philosophical.
The answer would be exactly the same.
as long as your revised second hypothesis could be tested scientifically, then no, it wouldn't be the same.
I just thought you'd have a harder time wrapping your head around it if I didn't include god, so there he is.
"God" is what broke your example.
It doesn't seem to have helped any, since now you're just beating your head against the wall rather than accepting the basic idea that I have proposed, even though you agreed with it above.
I did not agree, and I will never accept your "basic" idea - however, I do agree that "basic" is an appropriate adjective...
Read the third paragraph that I quoted from Hawking's book. This is exactly what he is saying. Before, I was just making stuff up. Now, you're just ignoring all of the evidence presented. All of those illusions you had about yourself must be crumbling. I know it hurts, but you should let them go.
Hawking's opinion or ideas on the subject are
not "evidence."
Perhaps you simply don't understand the concepts of "raw data" and "evidence"...