Big Brother Healthcare?

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

It's getting to the point where you just kind of need to present the facts, /shrug, and move on. They will continue to bury their heads in the sand and believe that big government can just wave their magic wand and money will fall from the sky and perfect health care will be available to all, for free! They believe this despite the plethora of examples that government is anything but efficient, and there is no such thing as free: somebody, somewhere will have to pay for this "free healthcare for all".

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

It's getting to the point where you just kind of need to present the facts, /shrug, and move on. They will continue to bury their heads in the sand and believe that big government can just wave their magic wand and money will fall from the sky and perfect health care will be available to all, for free! They believe this despite the plethora of examples that government is anything but efficient, and there is no such thing as free: somebody, somewhere will have to pay for this "free healthcare for all".

Hey, I'm under no illusion that this will magically make it 'free'. Any 'leftie' as you call them who is worth his salt will tell you that. If you want bloat, look at the way things are currently set up with private insurers. Why do you think we pay so much more than ANY other first world country in total dollars spent on healthcare? It doesn't matter if it is a NHS-type service, a single-payer system, or a nonprofit locality based insurance pool model. They mop the floor with us in terms of access and $ spent per capita on healthcare with equivalent or better results.

Also, the claim that the government cannot run anything efficiently has been debunked many times. Many of us have moved on since 1980 and decided that it is best to look at the facts of any government program before defacto crapping on it. Talk about having your head buried in the sand... Sometimes government is the answer, and sometimes it isn't. It depends on how its done.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget


Hey, I'm under no illusion that this will magically make it 'free'. Any 'leftie' as you call them who is worth his salt will tell you that. If you want bloat, look at the way things are currently set up with private insurers. Why do you think we pay so much more than ANY other first world country in total dollars spent on healthcare? It doesn't matter if it is a NHS-type service, a single-payer system, or a nonprofit locality based insurance pool model. They mop the floor with us in terms of access and $ spent per capita on healthcare with equivalent or better results.

Here are the six top sources of waste in our current system. If you eliminate this waste, our current system is on par with other systems in terms of expenditures as a percentage of GDP. These could mostly be remedied with reform rather than completely tearing up the current system.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: MovingTarget


Hey, I'm under no illusion that this will magically make it 'free'. Any 'leftie' as you call them who is worth his salt will tell you that. If you want bloat, look at the way things are currently set up with private insurers. Why do you think we pay so much more than ANY other first world country in total dollars spent on healthcare? It doesn't matter if it is a NHS-type service, a single-payer system, or a nonprofit locality based insurance pool model. They mop the floor with us in terms of access and $ spent per capita on healthcare with equivalent or better results.

Here are the six top sources of waste in our current system. If you eliminate this waste, our current system is on par with other systems in terms of expenditures as a percentage of GDP. These could mostly be remedied with reform rather than completely tearing up the current system.

Those are all good points. We should work on those. However, as one would say, "we can do better". The article you linked cites 1.2Trillion in lost $$ because of these. I don't know how they came up with that, but I'll take their word for it. We're already moving towards EHR/EMR nationwide as I've already stated (in another thread). The washing hands thing really is a best practices/routine measure that should already be done.

The excessive claims forms thing is HUGE imho. Actually working at a medical software company gave me a lot of insight about how insurance companies operate with these. It really is a nightmare. The billing is beyond screwed up, even with the attempts like the UB92/UB2002 forms and itemized billing. Even when these things are automated, inevitably a practice will still have to spend considerable amounts of manhours submitting and resubmitting/altering forms to make sure that an insurance company pays what they should. You can't isolate the human element from that with the current patchwork of insurance companies, laws, policies, etc. It really does need standardization on the national level, which includes not only the forms, but the various legal frameworks in the states. This would be a major part of health insurance reform. Personally, I think that as the defacto gatekeepers of healthcare in this nation, insurance should be on a strictly nonprofit basis....if you decide not to go with a government option and/or a single payer system.

The excessive testing does have a lot to do with insurance company policies, but tort reform would do a lot to eliminate this. Even the most liberal of healthcare advocates see the need for tort reform. Overall though, it is fear of lawsuits and not the lawsuits themselves that cause doctors/hospitals to go crazy with tests. Tort reform alone would ultimately be a small part of what is needed to bring costs under control, but many treat it as a magic bullet and ignore the other areas...same way with the ER as a clinic thing for illegal immigrants. It is important, but you can't bury your head in the sand and focus on only one part of what is needed.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

And they alll have completely different governments, and social dynamics. You can not compare Europe to the US, and just blurt out BS like "well it works there, it can work here!!!"

 

[heyheybooboo]

The 'defensive medicine' argument is getting old and worn out. Doctors will not run tests unless they are reimbursed for them by the insurance company.

Bottom Line: There is a small percentage (5% ?) of doctors who are responsible for half of all medical malpractice claims.

I don't care if it is done by the AMA. I don't care if it is done state-by-state, or by the Federal gov't.

The public has a right to know who these dumb asses are - and we also deserve to know hospital 'death rates'.

Whatever the numbers are (110k per year ?) someone needs to shine a light on 'em.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

So you're saying that these other countries provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and have no limitations?

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

Bull. There are tradeoffs to everything. Either you provide less care, or you create longer wait times, or you ration care, or you jack up taxes to pay for stuff etc etc. There is no magical way that having government run something like this magically makes it efficient or cheaper.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

Bull. There are tradeoffs to everything. Either you provide less care, or you create longer wait times, or you ration care, or you jack up taxes to pay for stuff etc etc. There is no magical way that having government run something like this magically makes it efficient or cheaper.

Bullshit. Medical expense as a % of GDP was 0.00001% in 1850. If those monkeys can do it back then, so can we!

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

This kind of goes back to what the OP was worried about. Almost all of those countries that have a nationalized healthcare are running unsustainable budget deficits. Raising taxes only gets you so far.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: xj0hnx

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

And they alll have completely different governments, and social dynamics. You can not compare Europe to the US, and just blurt out BS like "well it works there, it can work here!!!"

Europe, Japan, and Canada all have the same systems of government? Wow, learn something new each day!

I guess the US is just shit now and can't handle anything more than killing people in random countries.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

Bull. There are tradeoffs to everything. Either you provide less care, or you create longer wait times, or you ration care, or you jack up taxes to pay for stuff etc etc. There is no magical way that having government run something like this magically makes it efficient or cheaper.

The average family of 4 pays $13k. That is the equivalent of a 15%+ tax rate on Americans, many of which are denied pre-existing conditions or are dropped when they most need it.

Cut out the profits and insure more people and it does "magically" make things cheaper. Like in ALL OTHER FIRST WORLD COUNTRIES.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

This kind of goes back to what the OP was worried about. Almost all of those countries that have a nationalized healthcare are running unsustainable budget deficits. Raising taxes only gets you so far.

We doubled our deficit in the last 8 years... and what was our excuse? Correlation-causation needs to be checked.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: xj0hnx

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

And they alll have completely different governments, and social dynamics. You can not compare Europe to the US, and just blurt out BS like "well it works there, it can work here!!!"

Europe, Japan, and Canada all have the same systems of government? Wow, learn something new each day!

I guess the US is just shit now and can't handle anything more than killing people in random countries.

True, you learn new things everyday, unfortunately for you reading comprehension is not one of them.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: xj0hnx

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: xj0hnx

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

And they alll have completely different governments, and social dynamics. You can not compare Europe to the US, and just blurt out BS like "well it works there, it can work here!!!"

Europe, Japan, and Canada all have the same systems of government? Wow, learn something new each day!

I guess the US is just shit now and can't handle anything more than killing people in random countries.

True, you learn new things everyday, unfortunately for you reading comprehension is not one of them.

I learned something about the size of your brain. Very small...

Every other country could do it, but we can't... because our governments are different.. perfect excuse! Guess the US is one giant failure and we should accept that!

We DO however, do WONDERFULLY at killing and displacing millions in foreign countries that pose us no threat!

 

[Budmantom]

I got this in an email and thought it was great.

Let me get this straight. Obama's health care plan is being written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it, signed by a president who smokes, funded by a treasury chief who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that is nearly broke. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Budmantom
I got this in an email and thought it was great.

Let me get this straight. Obama's health care plan is being written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it, signed by a president who smokes, funded by a treasury chief who did not pay his taxes, overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that is nearly broke. What could possibly go wrong?

We should be scared. VERY VERY SCARED! Boogah boogah!

This tactic has been going on since the beginning of history. You are nothing new or special. You have been and always will be on the wrong side of history.. along with the other failed fear movements.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: xj0hnx

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: xj0hnx

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

And they alll have completely different governments, and social dynamics. You can not compare Europe to the US, and just blurt out BS like "well it works there, it can work here!!!"

Europe, Japan, and Canada all have the same systems of government? Wow, learn something new each day!

I guess the US is just shit now and can't handle anything more than killing people in random countries.

True, you learn new things everyday, unfortunately for you reading comprehension is not one of them.

I learned something about the size of your brain. Very small...

Every other country could do it, but we can't... because our governments are different.. perfect excuse! Guess the US is one giant failure and we should accept that!

We DO however, do WONDERFULLY at killing and displacing millions in foreign countries that pose us no threat!

Ahh there it is, the old tried and true looney left fall back, insults. You fail to comprehend, so you insult someone, wow, color me surprised. Your emotional vomit is also noted, and deposited right next to any respect you might have had...in the trash bin.

 

[nullzero]

Was busy the last few days after posting this. But seeing the same typical responses from both sides, moonbeam and others are blinded by their bias. I want my government to answer these questions with a straight face. What I do not want is another bullshit projection or graph on what it should cost (we all know the current administration is not good at forecasting expenditures and the economy).

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

This kind of goes back to what the OP was worried about. Almost all of those countries that have a nationalized healthcare are running unsustainable budget deficits. Raising taxes only gets you so far.

Funny thing is, most of those Countries Deficits were smaller than the US Deficit, a few didn't have a Deficit, and of those who did have Deficits they were actively working to eliminate them while the US was say "Deficits don't matter".

The Deficit angle does not support your Argument in any way.

 

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Clearly, you're another one of those delusional lefties who think the government can run something efficiently. It does not, can not, and will not happen.

Sometimes, I seriously think people believe that the government will provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and it will magically be cheap and efficient.

Considering it is cheaper and more efficient in every other country that does it, yes, it is very logical. Unless our country is just garbage compared to the rest of them. They cover everyone and pay 1/2 what we pay.

So you're saying that these other countries provide an all-you-can-eat health care smorgasboard and have no limitations?

No country has that now. You keep making that point and its silly and pointless. No where can you just walk into a hospital and demand an MRI for a hangnail and expect it to be paid for.


Those screaming taxes taxes deficit seem to assume that we would still be paying ~15% of income to the insurance companies on top of the gov't costs. No, the funds are redirected. The net increase or decrease will depend on structure.
I'd be willing to pay a measure of increase to ensure I will have coverage when I need it, and not be thrown out of insurance plan as soon as I fall ill, or just have all the claims denied for BS reasons and go bankrupt trying to keep myself alive. All of which happens with regularity with our current system.

 

[ZeGermans]

You realize the private companies have something akin to credit ratings on every person that applies for health insurance, and it goes down if you're ever dropped. These lists contain your medical history and all that shit. So I ask you what's more scary, an entity interested only in your money and finding a way to let you die if you get sick knowing your medical history and sharing it with like entities, or one that is concerned solely with your care.