Building a 1TB+ File Server

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
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I am building a file server for my father and need some recommendations. Only one computer will be accessing it. He currently has two Lacie BigDisk 500gb drives, totaling 1TB of storage. They are just iffy however and I would like to hook him up with a nice RAID setup. What we're basically looking for is a file server with 1TB Raid-1 (2TB worth of hard drives). The drives are all IDE so I don't know if it is a good idea to mix SATA and IDE in hardware RAID-1.

Would RAID-5 be too expensive?

Money is really no object here. The only concern is noise. The server must not be a whining mess.
Hotswapping isn't really a necessity.

Requirements:

Clean power (external UPS? + redundant PSUs)
Lots of room for growth (storage bays)
Decent looking case
good, quiet cooling
a good RAID card

money is no object

What kind of CPU and mobo should I get for this? Should I buy him a low end Opteron or what? I think dual cpus would be complete overkill. He's just using this to store music and movies.
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
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I would get an Athlon 64 3000+ and a cheap mainboard from a good brand, like Asus, DFI or Abit.
 

Fullmetal Chocobo

Moderator<br>Distributed Computing
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May 13, 2003
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Look at my link to my machine:
Enermax FS2300B case (23 bay server case)
dual Enermax 660w and 460w power supplies
external 1100VA UPS
SuperMicro X5DAE mboo
dual Xeon 2.66GHz (could go slower actually for a File Server)
2GB PC2100 DDR
BroadCom 4852 RAID controller (thing is awesome--8 SATA ports)

and then add whatever hard drives you need. I'm putting Hitachi 250gb SATAs in mine. But whatever you need. And I would replace the two 120mm fans, as they are rather loud. and swap out the 8 80mm fans for quieter ones too to get it rather quiet.
Tas.
 

Fullmetal Chocobo

Moderator<br>Distributed Computing
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And RAID 5 is not too expensive if the data is worth not losing. Plus it increases your performance as well. And it only requires one extra disk (so 5 250GB hds instead of 4).
Tas.
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
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0
Originally posted by: Farmer
Why not go Opteron? Or X2 if money is no object?

Because only two people will EVER access this server at once, my father and I. You don't WASTE money just because you can afford to.

That's like telling me to put a 7800gtx into it.

This will be a monitorless server, no point in any of that.

For an OS, should I just stick to Windows Server 2003? I want to keep things as simple as possible. I will not be around to babysit him.
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
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0
Originally posted by: tasburrfoot78362
Look at my link to my machine:
Enermax FS2300B case (23 bay server case)
dual Enermax 660w and 460w power supplies
external 1100VA UPS
SuperMicro X5DAE mboo
dual Xeon 2.66GHz (could go slower actually for a File Server)
2GB PC2100 DDR
BroadCom 4852 RAID controller (thing is awesome--8 SATA ports)

and then add whatever hard drives you need. I'm putting Hitachi 250gb SATAs in mine. But whatever you need. And I would replace the two 120mm fans, as they are rather loud. and swap out the 8 80mm fans for quieter ones too to get it rather quiet.
Tas.

Might I ask what you use that server for?
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
0
0
Originally posted by: Farmer
Why not go Opteron? Or X2 if money is no object?

He's already spending $1000 this week on a 2405FPW to go with his overpriced-ricer-crap Dell XPS laptop. I don't want to drop a $5000 bombshell on his lap too soon. It might scare him into continuing with the Lacie BigDisaster 500gb externals.

Meanwhile I'm posting from a 17" 1152x864 Dell CRT and 15" 1024x768 Compaq CRT dual monitor setup, feeling my eyes slowly peeling back and burning through my skull. I love the way things work.


Also, how in the hell will I be able to move his 370gb of files into the server? Doesn't the Lacie have the 250gb drives RAIDed? Would I need additional drives to make the initial switch? I hope not.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,334
2
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Originally posted by: PerfeK
Originally posted by: Farmer
Why not go Opteron? Or X2 if money is no object?

He's already spending $1000 this week on a 2405FPW to go with his overpriced-ricer-crap Dell XPS laptop. I don't want to drop a $5000 bombshell on his lap too soon. It might scare him into continuing with the Lacie BigDisaster 500gb externals.

Meanwhile I'm posting from a 17" 1152x864 Dell CRT and 15" 1024x768 Compaq CRT dual monitor setup, feeling my eyes slowly peeling back and burning through my skull. I love the way things work.


Also, how in the hell will I be able to move his 370gb of files into the server? Doesn't the Lacie have the 250gb drives RAIDed? Would I need additional drives to make the initial switch? I hope not.


Hahaha. I hope your old man doesnt read that.

tasburrfoot78362:

Hey I checked out your case. Very nice choice!
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
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0
Originally posted by: Farmer
Originally posted by: PerfeK
Originally posted by: Farmer
Why not go Opteron? Or X2 if money is no object?

He's already spending $1000 this week on a 2405FPW to go with his overpriced-ricer-crap Dell XPS laptop. I don't want to drop a $5000 bombshell on his lap too soon. It might scare him into continuing with the Lacie BigDisaster 500gb externals.

Meanwhile I'm posting from a 17" 1152x864 Dell CRT and 15" 1024x768 Compaq CRT dual monitor setup, feeling my eyes slowly peeling back and burning through my skull. I love the way things work.


Also, how in the hell will I be able to move his 370gb of files into the server? Doesn't the Lacie have the 250gb drives RAIDed? Would I need additional drives to make the initial switch? I hope not.


Hahaha. I hope your old man doesnt read that.

I'm very open with him. I tell him exactly what I think and he respects me for it. I don't exactly call his laptop "ricer-crap" but I do say it would be better to have a beastly desktop and a 12" Pentium M system. I don't live with him so I can't help him make these kinds of decisions all the time. He has IT guys who work for him give him advice and ofcourse, they just tell him what he wants to hear.

I mean, damn. The IT recommended that he buy a second 500gb external drive to do some sort of funky USB 2.0 software RAID-1. Seriously, who comes up with this stuff? Sh!t..
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
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0
I just sent him a 780 word email regarding tech stuff. Please tell me if this information is accurate. I just want to reassure myself that I'm not completely stupid.

I know you invested a lot into those Lacies but I'm genuinely concerned. The Lacie enclosure does not have active cooling (fans) and the overheating leads to errors and instability during heavy load. You said that you had some issues with file corruption. Doing a backup of an unstable setup onto another unstable setup really won't do any good.


Cooling and redundancy are the main issues here. The file server would have several near-silent fans actively cooling the drives and controlling the temperature within the enclosure. This is very important since hard drives tend to dissipate a lot of heat. It would also mirror the drives and provide redundancy to keep the file system safe, in the background, in real time, without any need for input.

A bonus feature is that you could have your bit torrent program, Azureus running on the file server, downloading torrents independently, leaving your laptop free to do other things. This will cut down on your laptops internal hard drive writes, prolonging the life of that drive.

You can also backup your laptop drive to the server if you'd like.

This is probably what the IT person at the radio station recommended, a "RAID-1" array, except in hardware form. This simply mirrors the disks in real time and makes sure that the system keeps on running in the event of a drive failure. If a drive ever fails, which one will eventually (all hard drives do unfortunately), you can simply swap it out with a fresh one without any headaches and let it "resync". It's the safest backup method. Your four 250gb drives will give you 500gb of usable disk space here.


There is also "RAID-5" which uses one drive simply for error checking and would give you 750gb of usable space. I think RAID-1 would be the better option though.


I looked them up and they use two standard 250gb drives. You'll be able to just take the drives out of the enclosure if needed. Since you have two Lacies, you have a total of 1TB (1000GB) of usable space. I'd honestly sleep better knowing that those rips are safe.


It will also be safe from environmental issues. If you have a power outage, a small UPS will give the server enough time to safely shut down without damaging the drives. Voltage surge? Again, not a problem. The only thing you can't protect it from is the apocalypse.

You'll be able to use your existing drives; you just need an enclosure and the appropriate hardware.
 

n7

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2004
21,281
4
81
Why do you need a high end setup for this

Why not a simple old PC with a bunch of HDDs thrown in to use over the network?

Get a PCI RAID card for the HDDs & you'd be set.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
What we're basically looking for is a file server with 1TB Raid-1 (2TB worth of hard drives).

You can't build a 1TB ATA RAID 1 array, since there are no 1TB drives. You'll have to go with RAID 10 or RAID 0+1, and use at least 6 drives (400GB for 1.2TB usable). I would recommend getting an additional drive as a boot drive, and using the RAID array exclusively for storage.

The drives are all IDE so I don't know if it is a good idea to mix SATA and IDE in hardware RAID-1

You can't mix the SATA and PATA in a hardware RAID array, since no card supports both without using adapters which is simply a bad idea. Stick with PATA if that's what he has, the controller will be cheaper too.

Clean power (external UPS? + redundant PSUs)

For a 6 drive RAID array, any quality 400W PSU will be plenty. No point in getting redundant supplies, this server doesn't look to be mission critical where down time will cost your dad money.

Lots of room for growth (storage bays)

Coolermaster stacker case is worth a look.

a good RAID card

An 8 channel 3Ware card will work well.

What kind of CPU and mobo should I get for this? Should I buy him a low end Opteron or what? I think dual cpus would be complete overkill.

The cheapest CPU you can find. Seriously, a 1 GHz PIII will perform identically to a dual core Athlon X2 4800+ as a 2 client file server, so don't waste any money at all on the CPU and board. Get the cheapest Celeron or P4 and Intel motherboard you can find new and spend the rest on storage.

For an OS, should I just stick to Windows Server 2003?

There's no point in using Windows Server 2003. All that will do is require you to buy more expensive hardware to run it and unnecessarily complicate the setup. XP Pro lacks nothing for what your dad needs to do.

Also, how in the hell will I be able to move his 370gb of files into the server? Doesn't the Lacie have the 250gb drives RAIDed? Would I need additional drives to make the initial switch?

Set up the server, connect the Lacie drive and copy it to the empty RAID array. Pretty straightforward.
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
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0
Originally posted by: n7
Why do you need a high end setup for this

Why not a simple old PC with a bunch of HDDs thrown in to use over the network?

Get a PCI RAID card for the HDDs & you'd be set.

I need a good case with adequate cooling. He lives in the tropics and it can get sticky down there. Average ambient is 35°C. That's just outside of the case. Imagine inside of a hot server. This is all irrelevent though, seeing as it will be air conditioned (22°C) in there.

What kind of RAID card should I get? Won't 4 drives saturate the measly PCI bus? Shouldn't I maybe look into a PCI-X server RAID card?

We have a 400mhz PII with 128mb SDRAM lying around. You don't think that's enough, do you?
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
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The CPU is fine. For XP, you'll want a bit more than 128MB of RAM though.

The LAN connection will bottleneck performance long before the PCI bus does. Streaming movies and music doesn't require 127+MB/s anyway, so don't worry about it.
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
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0
I don't think you understood me. I'm going to use the four Lacie 250gb drives in the server. The bigdisk 500gb uses two 250gb drives.

I'll use XP Pro then.

Would a 400mhz PII with 128mb ram suffice?

How would an old 12gb hdd work for a system drive? Should I just buy a new 40gb IDE drive to be safe?

The stacker is too "gamer" looking. He'll never accept that. He despises PC gaming. I think I might go with something shorter and longer, like a traditional ATX serve case.

How is this card? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16816116020
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
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Originally posted by: Pariah
The CPU is fine. For XP, you'll want a bit more than 128MB of RAM though.

The LAN connection will bottleneck performance long before the PCI bus does. Streaming movies and music doesn't require 127+MB/s anyway, so don't worry about it.

Will this be a lot slower than an external USB 2.0 drive? He'll have the server's drive mounted on his computer as a network drive and he'll be using it for all bulk storage. I don't want it to be laggy.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
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I don't think you understood me. I'm going to use the four Lacie 250gb drives in the server. The bigdisk 500gb uses two 250gb drives.

You're right, I'm not understanding. Doesn't Lacie just repackage other company's drives in external enclosures? How do you plan to mount those internally? What difference does the case make if the drives are all external?

You can't use 4 drives in a RAID 1 array. So if you want to use RAID 1 with four 250GB drives, you'll have to create two 250GB RAID 1 arrays for a total usable capacity of 500GB.

Would a 400mhz PII with 128mb ram suffice?

I thought I just answered that in my last post.

That RAID card will work well. With the small caveat that it will not work with external drives like the ones Lacie makes.

Will this be a lot slower than an external USB 2.0 drive? He'll have the server's drive mounted on his computer as a network drive and he'll be using it for all bulk storage. I don't want it to be laggy.

Now I'm not understanding at all. I thought you were building a seperate dedicated storage server. If that's the case, how exactly do you plan to connect it to other computers with out using some form of network?
 

Penth

Senior member
Mar 9, 2004
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I think he is planning on removing the drives from the external case and mounting them inside the computer case as a normal internal hard drive.
 

wallsfd949

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2003
1,002
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I believe you're uninformed about RAID. If you have 4 disks and want to provide redundancy, RAID-5 would be the best choice. 4-250GB disks will provide 750GB of usable space while at the same time providing data redundancy.

GIG-A-BIT

I'd also ditch the Windows and go with a flavor of Linux - whatever you're comfortable with and setup SAMBA. Very easy, and it will run excelent on the older hardware you already have (but hopefully you already know that).
 

Fullmetal Chocobo

Moderator<br>Distributed Computing
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May 13, 2003
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Originally posted by: PerfeK

Might I ask what you use that server for?

3D Studio Max R5, digital video editing (home movies mostly, although I have done quite a few projects for people), mp3 collection, and my wife is playing Guild Wars on it right now.
Tas.
 

PerfeK

Senior member
Mar 20, 2005
329
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0
Originally posted by: Pariah
I don't think you understood me. I'm going to use the four Lacie 250gb drives in the server. The bigdisk 500gb uses two 250gb drives.

You're right, I'm not understanding. Doesn't Lacie just repackage other company's drives in external enclosures? How do you plan to mount those internally? What difference does the case make if the drives are all external?

I'm taking all of the drives out of the LAcie external enclosures.

Originally posted by: Penth
I think he is planning on removing the drives from the external case and mounting them inside the computer case as a normal internal hard drive.


This is exactly what I'm doing. The problem is backing up the Lacie before I take it apart. I believe the Lacie enclosure has some sort of built in JBOD or RAID-0 which makes it look like one 500gb drive.

I'll be able to do two RAID-1 arrays on a single card, correct? I don't mind doing two 250gb arrays.

With that 8 port RAID card, can I run four RAID-1 arrays total or is there a limit? I guess I can use RAID 10 or 1+0 or whatever you said if push comes to shove.

I was asking if a 100mbps LAN conection would be a lot slower than a regular USB 2.0 drive as far as transfer times are concerned. I don't think his WRT54G has gigibit ethernet so that's not even an option.

Originally posted by: tasburrfoot78362
Originally posted by: PerfeK

Might I ask what you use that server for?

3D Studio Max R5, digital video editing (home movies mostly, although I have done quite a few projects for people), mp3 collection, and my wife is playing Guild Wars on it right now.
Tas.

There definitely won't be any of that on this machine. It is strictly storage for now.

Originally posted by: Pariah
Now I'm not understanding at all. I thought you were building a seperate dedicated storage server. If that's the case, how exactly do you plan to connect it to other computers with out using some form of network?

I am putting it on the network. I'm just wondering how much slower it will be than USB 2.0.



Thanks for all of this help, guys.
 

Fullmetal Chocobo

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Yes, the BroadCom BC4852 can easily handle that. In fact, if you want to get 8 drives, and make 16 RAID 1 arrays using half of all of the drives, it can do that too.
Tas.
 

jamori

Member
May 6, 2004
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You should *really* look into RAID-5. It's perfect for your needs.

Regardless of how many drives you have in a RAID5 array, only the storage from (1) of the drives is dedicated for redundancy, yet ANY one drive in the array can fail and you can still get all your data.

For example, if you had a 6-port RAID-5 card with 6, 250GB hard drives attached, you would have a filesystem with 5*250GB = 1250GB of storage. Any one of those drives can fail and your data is all still there. Just make sure to get in there and replace the faulty drive before another fails! (2) failed drives WILL lose the data. The best idea is to just shut down the server until you can put a new drive in. Some of the cards I have listed below even support a hot spare drive, so that if one of the drives in the array fails, it automatically starts rebuilding the array using the extra drive. This way, a full 3 drives would have to fail very close to one another before you lost all your data!

For RAID-5, you need a minimum of (3) drives. One of the nice things is that if you buy a RAID-5 controller with 6 or 8 or 12 ports and just start with your 4 drives in it, you can upgrade the storage on the fly.

So for instance you start by connecting your (4) 250GB drives in RAID5 on a controller that supports up to (8) drives. This gives you 750GB of storage to start with, and if you decide in 6 months that you need more storage, just add a 5th 250GB drive and you'll have a full 1TB of usable storage!

And even if you have something ridiculous like 16 drives in a RAID5 array, you'd have 15*250GB = 3.75TB of usable storage, whereas those same drives in a bunch of RAID1 arrays would only be 8*250 = 2TB.

The read performance on RAID5 is comparable to drives in a striped RAID0 array, the write performance is about the same as if you had a single drive (also about the same as a RAID1 array), you still get the protection from one of the drives failing, AND you can upgrade your storage as you need to!

For RAID5, you definitely need a controller card that has "hardware assisted RAID5". These typically come with small RISC processors on the card or have a special XOR engine for calculating parity -- this prevents the main CPU from being used for all the calculations.

For P-ATA RAID5, I'd recommend looking into:
* Promise SX-6000 (up to 6 drives)
* Highpoint RocketRAID 464 (has support for up to 8 drives, but only 4 channels -- performance would be slightly degraded for more than 4 drives, but this should be fine for the type of storage you're describing that doesn't need extremely high performance, since you're going to be limited by your network connection anyway)
* 3Ware Escalade, versions: 7506-4LP, 7506-8, and 7506-12 for up to 4, 8, and 12 drives respectively.

Another interesting product:
* Highpoint RocketRAID 1820A (NOT the 1810A) -- This is a SATA raid controller with 8 ports. The interesting part is that you can use their "RocketHead 100" converters to connect regular ATA drives to the controller. These converters seem to go for about $10 shipped on eBay. The advantage of this drive is that you can attach your (4), 250GB PATA drives now via the converters, then buy SATA drives in the future as they become more cost-effective.

Keep in mind, though, that with any RAID solution, the entire array will perform according to the slowest / lowest storage device in it.
For instance, if you have (5) 250GB drives and (1) 100GB drive in a RAID5 array, it's no better than just having (6) 100GB drives -- you'll only have 500GB of usable storage.

With such a nice fileserver, you should REALLY consider buying a small gigabit switch and a few gigabit ethernet cards. Transferring huge files when limited by 100mbit (that's only about 12 Megabytes/second, max) gets annoying -- trust me, I've been there.
If you shop around and wait for good deals and such, you can usually get gigabit ethernet cards for less than $15 apiece -- granted they're probably not the best of the best, but DEFINITELY better than 100_base.

A 4-port gigabit router could be had for $50 - $75, and you could keep your WRT54G attached to the network as well, if you wanted. Just connect the cable modem / DSL / whatever directly to the WRT54G, then run a network cable (might need a crossover cable, might not) from the WRT to the gigabit switch and then cables from the gigabit switch to computers that will likely be accessing the server (and to the server, of course). Anything attached to the gigabit switch with gigabit cards can use gigabit speeds, and anything attached to the WRT can still talk to the fileserver or any of the computers on the gigabit, but will be limited to 100mbit speeds.

Anyway, I hope I've been helpful. Let me know if you have any questions.

Best of luck!

Nick
 

jamori

Member
May 6, 2004
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Oh, I forgot to mention -- some of those controller cards support PCI-X, but are still backwards compatable with regular PCI slots.

Like someone else said, don't worry -- you won't be saturating the PCI bus (133 MB/sec) any time soon with a home fileserver like this. And even if you somehow do, the computer asking for the data wouldnt be able to deal with it fast enough.

Even assuming you get only 1/2 of the full bandwidth (RAID controller to CPU, CPU back to ethernet card then transfer over gigabit ethernet), I don't think that a RAID0 of raptors will write at 65 MB/sec

Good luck!
 
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