Bush plan targets Cuban nickel

[Red Dawn]

The only ones hurt by the Embargo is the Cuban People!

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

When will this embargo stupidity end?

When special interests stop controlling foreign policy...

i.e. the anti-Castro Cuban mafia in Miami.


Oh BTW, I'm sure some of our Mexican friends would like to know when we will be ending the wet foot/dry foot hypocrisy.

Same goes with the Israel lobby which is even more powerful.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
The only ones hurt by the Embargo is the Cuban People!

Absolutely! The best way to end Castro's regime (or at least the most repressive elements) is to have Americans roaming throughout the country. American businesses, tourists, and expats alike would help the average Cuban immensely. Change would happen from within . . . as it should.

Instead, idiots that don't know history and Cuban expats with grudges continue an agenda that has been a total failure.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
As long as the US continues to prop up Saudi Arabia there is little room to complain about Canada supporting Cuba.

Of course there is, especially since Canada "supports" SA as well.

We both know it isn't Canada's 'support' that keeps the brutal and oppressive Saudi regime in power. We both know whose 'support' is most vital, by far, to maintaining their power.

As we all know, almost all the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, and one of the most radical and extremist sects of Islam, Wahhabism, has it's spiritual and operational base in S.A?s madrasses.

Yet we won't even dare cast a suspicious look at the Saudis.

Cuba's regime pales in comparison to some of the regimes the US supports or has supported. We support, or oppose, those regimes out of political interests only and certainly not out of humanitarian concerns.

For example, we we're quite friendly with Saddam until he acted against our interests by invading Kuwait... then all of a sudden he is evil.
It's not the external aggression or the internal brutality we cared about... after all those things were already happening with our knowledge, and in some cases like the invasion of Iran, with our direct support. We ONLY care about these things when they act against our perceived interests.

It's pure, unadulterated hypocrisy and negatively affects US credibility worldwide.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

We both know it isn't Canada's 'support' that keeps the brutal and oppressive Saudi regime in power. We both know whose 'support' is most vital, by far, to maintaining their power.

I think that SA can support itself. It doesn't need anybody to prop it up.

As we all know, almost all the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, and one of the most radical and extremist sects of Islam, Wahhabism, has it's spiritual and operational base in S.A?s madrasses.

Yet we won't even dare cast a suspicious look at the Saudis.

As we all know, many of the 9/11 hijackers were radicalised in Europe (Germany), and some of the most radical extremists have their spiritual and operational base in Europe.

Yet we won't even dare cast a suspicious look at the Europeans.

Cuba's regime pales in comparison to some of the regimes the US supports or has supported. We support, or oppose, those regimes out of political interests only and certainly not out of humanitarian concerns.

For example, we we're quite friendly with Saddam until he acted against our interests by invading Kuwait... then all of a sudden he is evil.
It's not the external aggression or the internal brutality we cared about... after all those things were already happening with our knowledge, and in some cases like the invasion of Iran, with our direct support. We ONLY care about these things when they act against our perceived interests.

It's pure, unadulterated hypocrisy and negatively affects US credibility worldwide.

That's nothing special, that describes any country. I do think that it's a combination of many factors - political, humanitarian, economic, etc. though.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I think that SA can support itself. It doesn't need anybody to prop it up.

After billions upon billions of military aid and training, and preventing Saddam from expanding his aggression to S.A in ?91, and then removing the spectre of Saddam from the neighbourhood completely, and allowing the Saudi royals to be intimately and financially involved with US politics and politicians, and removing all damaging references to Saudi Arabia in the official 9/11 report, I'd say we've probably created the circumstances in which The House of Saud no longer needs strategic assistance to remain in power. So you're probably right.

As we all know, many of the 9/11 hijackers were radicalised in Europe (Germany), and some of the most radical extremists have their spiritual and operational base in Europe.

Yet we won't even dare cast a suspicious look at the Europeans.

Europe is an open society like the US and has little control over the religious actions of it's populus. Afterall there are Islamics preaching hatred of the West in mosques IN America.

S.A. is such a restricted, regulated society that they would have a much greater chance at controlling extremism. If they wanted to. But they don't. And we don't seem to care. At least they could pay us back for our unflinching support by turning their brutality towards the extremists. Oh wait many in the Saudi Royal family are known to heavily finance those extremists. Oh well.

That's nothing special, that describes any country. I do think that it's a combination of many factors - political, humanitarian, economic, etc. though.

So you agree that we simply don't like Cuba because of their leftist politics? And that, for other countries who aren't as opposed to those leftist policies, there is no reason to follow the US boycott of Cuba? That 'humanitarianism' isn't a good enough excuse when many worse situations are either ignored or supported?

Where is the boycott of S.A.?
Is Cuba more of a danger to America's national security than Saudi Arabia?

Follow the money. Sadly, this seems to hold true more often than not.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

So you're probably right.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

Europe is an open society like the US and has little control over the religious actions of it's populus. Afterall there are Islamics preaching hatred of the West in mosques IN America.

Europe is a society where the extreme far-right supremacists are gaining power and cry for the genocide of all undesirables within their borders daily.

The far-right in Europe influences governments and society. They are a virus spreading everywhere, fighting against an open society. Why do you think that France orchestrated the Rwanda genocide or the Netherlands orchestrated the Srebrenica massacre? Why did the previous German government want to erect concentration camps in the African desert?

Open society? Surely what you say is a joke.

S.A. is such a restricted, regulated society that they would have a much greater chance at controlling extremism. If they wanted to. But they don't. And we don't seem to care. At least they could pay us back for our unflinching support by turning their brutality towards the extremists. Oh wait many in the Saudi Royal family are known to heavily finance those extremists. Oh well.

Europe is such a restricted, regulated society that would have a much greater chance at controlling extremism. If they wanted to. But they don't. And we don't seem to care.

So you agree that we simply don't like Cuba because of their leftist politics? And that, for other countries who aren't as opposed to those leftist policies, there is no reason to follow the US boycott of Cuba? That 'humanitarianism' isn't a good enough excuse when many worse situations are either ignored or supported?

No, of course not. I don't agree with you.

Where is the boycott of S.A.?
Is Cuba more of a danger to America's national security than Saudi Arabia?

Different situations will result in different actions. That's how the world works. That's how your own life works.

I suppose that you are another Europeanized liberal. I see it happening all the time. Many liberals around the world are accepting European-like far-right ideals, just like the liberals in Europe. You want SA to torture and be brutal to extremists. A real liberal would not advocate torture.

I fear for our world.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I fear for our world.

As I read your posts I also fear for the world but for Americans in particular who seem to have a football team mentality about our nation. What we do=good, what they do=bad. Ra Ra Ra.
The rules we expect others to follow don't apply to us because we make the rules. Because we're America, Fsck Yeah! The more I see of this the more I realise we're not so different than the insular, ignorant, dogmatic populations of the Middle East that we so like to look down our noses at.

We Americans need to understand that if you conduct yourself as a violent sociopath you should expect violent sociopathic behavour in reponse. Export violence and expect it to be imported. Attack and expect to be attacked.

Why not aspire to be the beacon of truth, freedom and justice that we proclaim ourselves to be?
Or, if that's too difficult, why not just drop the charade and admit all of our agressive, deadly, and often covert, actions across the globe over the past 60 years so we can put some proper perspective on 'terrorism'?

BTW, the comment about SA was sarcasm intended to display the point that we, especially those like you, don't really mind death, violence and torture like we proclaim to... we only care when those things aren't being done by us and/or for us.... or, if we're the agressors, we only care when we're caught and embarrassed on the world stage.

I fully agree with Mikhail Gorbachev when he says "Americans have a severe disease ? worse than AIDS. It's called the winner's complex..."

We actually think we're the 'chosen ones' and it's seriously and negatively affecting all of our foreign policy.

 

[BrownTown]

The embargo will end when Castro dies. The US wants Cubans to think that they are much better off after Castro dies, so as soon as he kicks the can we will "persuade" Cuba to become a "democracy", and lift the sactions in order to make it looks as though the US installed dicta..democracy is much better than Castro.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

As I read your posts I also fear for the world but for Americans in particular who seem to have a football team mentality about our nation. What we do=good, what they do=bad. Ra Ra Ra.

Don't be so silly, the US does plenty bad.

As I read your posts, what I fear is that football team mentality as well. Some ethnicities/races/nationalities = bad, we = good. Ra ra ra. That is the Europeanized American liberal.

The rules we expect others to follow don't apply to us because we make the rules. Because we're America, Fsck Yeah! The more I see of this the more I realise we're not so different than the insular, ignorant, dogmatic populations of the Middle East that we so like to look down our noses at.

That is what Europeanized liberals support. They don't care that Europe genocides Rwandans or other undesirables. They need not follow any rules for they are the ones who are right and all others are wrong. They don't care about undesirables, but only themselves. They will support anything that supports their politics.

We Americans need to understand that if you conduct yourself as a violent sociopath you should expect violent sociopathic behavour in reponse. Export violence and expect it to be imported. Attack and expect to be attacked.

You should understand that.

Why not aspire to be the beacon of truth, freedom and justice that we proclaim ourselves to be?

Interesting. You claim this, and then claim to want people tortured and brutalized to death and support brutal regimes. That's probably not even something achievable in the real world.

Or, if that's too difficult, why not just drop the charade and admit all of our agressive, deadly, and often covert, actions across the globe over the past 60 years so we can put some proper perspective on 'terrorism'?

BTW, the comment about SA was sarcasm intended to display the point that we, especially those like you, don't really mind death, violence and torture like we proclaim to... we only care when those things aren't being done by us and/or for us.... or, if we're the agressors, we only care when we're caught and embarrassed on the world stage.

Many Europeanized liberals support genocide, death, violence, and torture. Look at Europe and their orchestration of the Rwanda genocide, Srebrenica, etc. Look at how they whitewash their history, ignoring the massacre of hundreds of millioins of people. That is the future of America if the Europeanization continues.

I fully agree with Mikhail Gorbachev when he says "Americans have a severe disease ? worse than AIDS. It's called the winner's complex..."

We actually think we're the 'chosen ones' and it's seriously and negatively affecting all of our foreign policy.

I think that you think you're the "chosen one" and it has seriously and negatively affected you.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Tripe containing strangely highly number of derivatives of the word Europe

Sir, you seem obsessed with Europe*. I never once mentioned Europe yet you continuously bring it up as if it's something you think I feel the need to defend. Fsck Europe. I don't live there, I don't have family there and I don't pay taxes there.

I live in, have family in and pay taxes to two nations, my home the US and my adopted nation, Australia, and our actions are what I am concerned with. You can find me in much the same discussions with Australians on Australian forums.
I am concerned about the path of both my countries. Europeans can tend to their own business.

*After a quick search of your previous posts it's confirmed that you have some sort of massive hard on for Europe. Strange. Perhaps you will feel more challenged and satisfied having your Euro argument with someone who cares.

Good day.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Tripe containing strangely highly number of derivatives of the word Europe

Sir, you seem obsessed with Europe*. I never once mentioned Europe yet you continuously bring it up as if it's something you think I feel the need to defend. Fsck Europe. I don't live there, I don't have family there and I don't pay taxes there.

I live in, have family in and pay taxes to two nations, my home the US and my adopted nation, Australia, and our actions are what I am concerned with. You can find me in much the same discussions with Australians on Australian forums.
I am concerned about the path of both my countries. Europeans can tend to their own business.

*After a quick search of your previous posts it's confirmed that you have some sort of massive hard on for Europe. Strange. Perhaps you will feel more challenged and satisfied having your Euro argument with someone who cares.

Good day.

Yes, I am obsessed with ultra far-right European supremacist politics, just like many here are obsessed with Israel, Islam, abortion, Bush, etc. I guess you're obsessed with Saudi Arabia then, huh? It tells a lot about someone who thinks it's strange to be opposed to European-orchestrated genocide, but thinks nothing of any other issue.

I only brought up Europe to counter the belief that because the hijackers were ethnically from SA, that's the enemy. They were radicalised in Europe. That is important, but you will just ignore it. My other statements were about Europeanized American liberals - these are Americans who follow supremacist politics. They are not Europeans. I feel that you may be a Europeanized liberal.

I find it interesting how many contradictions you have in your posts.

Have a good day

 

[3chordcharlie]

Cuba does awfully well, especially considering their biggest natural trading partner refuses to trade with them, in a sad and transparent economic version of 'begging the question' to prove that Cuba can't make it under their current system.

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
The embargo will end when Castro dies. The US wants Cubans to think that they are much better off after Castro dies, so as soon as he kicks the can we will "persuade" Cuba to become a "democracy", and lift the sactions in order to make it looks as though the US installed dicta..democracy is much better than Castro.

I've had this thought, too. But what happens if Fidel's brother or a very conservative elite takes over?

It's like the US want to keep an example of a trade sanction that failed alive.

 

[Thump553]

For that tiny minority that thinks the Cuban missile crisis justifies this 43+ year embargo, you are only listening to a whitewashed version of history. The USA (largely at the bequest of the Mafia and corporations who lost their assets when Castro nationalized the Cuban economy) first went on the offensive against Cuba, including training and sponsoring an actual invasion (the ill-fated Bay of Pigs) as well as the CIA's attempts to assisinate Castro (think James Bond by way of the Keystone Cops).

The only reason for this embargo since 1970 or so has been to curry favor with conservative Cuban-American voters in a critical large swing state, Florida. It has everything to do with politics and nothing to do with national interests. Both major parties are guilty of continuing this travesty.

I applaud Canada for ignoring US's irrational stand here.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Yes, I am obsessed with ultra far-right European supremacist politics, just like many here are obsessed with Israel, Islam, abortion, Bush, etc. I guess you're obsessed with Saudi Arabia then, huh?

If you search all my previous posts and find me mentioning Saudi Arabia even 1/10th the amount you mention Europe I will humbly agree that I must also be obsessed. I even saw a few posts in Off Topic that seem to contain an almost pathological disdain for Europe. It seems your Europhobia is well known.

Why are you seemingly far more concerned with Europe's sins than our own?
Seems we have enough blood on our own hands to worry about.

I can't concern myself with everyone's sin... there?s far too much of it.
I can only concern myself with the sins of my representatives financed by my tax dollars.
Sure, I could lie and say I'm concerned with every human tragedy, but the truth of the matter would be revealed in the fact that I am sitting here posting on AT instead of volunteering my time, or at least a significant portion of my income, to places like Dafur trying to save lives.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

If you search all my previous posts and find me mentioning Saudi Arabia even 1/10th the amount you mention Europe I will humbly agree that I must also be obsessed. Even a number of your posts in Off Topic, none of which have to do with genocide, seem to contain an almost pathological disdain for Europe. It seems your Europhobia is well known.

Criticism for Europe is called Europhobia on this forum. Is criticism for American then anti-Americanism? Of course not. There are many supremacists on this forum who pretend that criticism is some sort of phobia.

Why are you seemingly far more concerned with Europe's sins than our own?

I didn't know you can learn so much from forum postings. What else can you tell me about myself? Forum postings don't reflect too much about someone's positions. Perhaps I am more concerned about our own sins than someone else's in real life. You shouldn't view things on the internet as how things are in real life.

You don't need to look beyond the front page of the forum for documentation of what the US is doing. I find talking about Europe more interesting and providing information that isn't posted here. Some people post about Israel. Some about Bush. Some about their slavemasters (Democratic/Republican parties). Some about Saudi Arabia. Whatever they want. But if someone talks about Europe, it's off limits! A similar situation goes for Canada as well! I wonder why?

Perhaps it's because I am what is known as an undesirable to many in Europe, a vermin which is to be exterminated. Historically Europe has massacred more people during colonialism than anyone else in history (especially the British Empire). I fear history is repeating itself. I see the ultra supremacist far-right rise in Europe and what it's doing in the world and where the future may lie.

I can't concern myself with everyone's sin... there?s far too much of it.
I can only concern myself with the sins of my representatives financed by my tax dollars.
Sure, I could lie and say I'm concerned with every human tragedy, but the truth of the matter would be revealed in the fact that I am sitting here posting on AT instead of volunteering my time, or at least a significant portion of my income, to places like Dafur trying to save lives.

Good for you.

Unfortunately, you want American companies to fund the execution, kidnapping, torture, etc. of innocents. I oppose that. I don't think American companies nor the government should do that in an ideal world. You wish to create the very sins you want to stop.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Good for you.

Indeed. We have nothing further. And I am tired of searching posts.

Like I said, you can talk about Europe all you like with someone who feels the need to defend it. I think this would be more interesting for you?

I'll even agree with you.... Europeans have a rich history of scumbag behaviour and the feeling that precipitated that behaviour certainly still exists at some levels of the populus.
Their hands needs to be slapped just as much as ours. Happy?

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Unfortunately, you want American companies to fund the execution, kidnapping, torture, etc. of innocents. I oppose that.

Yes, that's exactly what I want. You can't imagine my shame in being found out.
Hopefully you are also oppose the executions, kidnappings and torture currently being carried out in your name with your tax dollars.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Yes, that's exactly what I want. You can't imagine my shame in being found out.
Hopefully you are also oppose the executions, kidnappings and torture currently being carried out in your name with your tax dollars.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. You support a Canadian company to fund such a system. Or at least don't want people to know about it. That's what I get from your initial statement. You oppose criticism of it.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: chcarnage

Originally posted by: BrownTown
The embargo will end when Castro dies. The US wants Cubans to think that they are much better off after Castro dies, so as soon as he kicks the can we will "persuade" Cuba to become a "democracy", and lift the sactions in order to make it looks as though the US installed dicta..democracy is much better than Castro.

I've had this thought, too. But what happens if Fidel's brother or a very conservative elite takes over?

It's like the US want to keep an example of a trade sanction that failed alive.

I basically agree with BrownTown here. The US just won't/can't negotiate with Fidel, the political turmoil and loss of face would just be too great to choke down.

Once he finally kicks the bucket I suspect feelers will be put out on both sides to end the embargo in return for at least token reforms in Cuba. I'm sure there are a number of people in the Cuban government who realize their country is missing out big time by not having normalized trade and diplomatic relations with the US and that the world has passed them by. The tourism business (money) alone that could flow into the country from US travelers would be staggering.

With any luck we won't have to wait much longer.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Yes, that's exactly what I want. You can't imagine my shame in being found out.
Hopefully you are also oppose the executions, kidnappings and torture currently being carried out in your name with your tax dollars.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. You support a Canadian company to fund such a system. Or at least don't want people to know about it. That's what I get from your initial statement. You oppose criticism of it.

Okay, I fully support that. I want Canadians to fund the deaths of everyone who is not me. I'm a scumbag of the first degree.

Is that enough of a confession to end this now?