Bush where was he?

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CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
You have been asking for HARD evidence that he was not AWOL but fail to provide ANY evidence he was.

"You never acknowledged to me that there was a random drug testing in effect"

I never claimed it was not. But I do know it was only for those under a certain age.

Support that claim please I don't beleive that's the way it was in 1972

"It seems Bush was ORDERED to take his physical by his commanding officer and didn't do it."

Support that.

I just saw the documents on 60 minutes. It will have to wait until some kind of transcript is available. They were newly released documents by the goverment and supported by personal records of his commanding officer.

Edit: Here it is I think, haven't looked at it all yet

60 Minutes transcript Sept 8th

I thought records meant nothing for you. You want hard facts.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
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Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
You have been asking for HARD evidence that he was not AWOL but fail to provide ANY evidence he was.

"You never acknowledged to me that there was a random drug testing in effect"

I never claimed it was not. But I do know it was only for those under a certain age.

Support that claim please I don't beleive that's the way it was in 1972

"It seems Bush was ORDERED to take his physical by his commanding officer and didn't do it."

Support that.

I just saw the documents on 60 minutes. It will have to wait until some kind of transcript is available. They were newly released documents by the goverment and supported by personal records of his commanding officer.

Edit: Here it is I think, haven't looked at it all yet

60 Minutes transcript Sept 8th

I thought records meant nothing for you. You want hard facts.

I said records can be falsified. I still say that. Are you agreeing to the possibility of that now, or just trying to play me again?

I also said "the preponderence of evidence" and this is just more evidence against Bush's version of the story. There is a short video you can watch also , but it isn't as complete as the show was.


 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
You have been asking for HARD evidence that he was not AWOL but fail to provide ANY evidence he was.

"You never acknowledged to me that there was a random drug testing in effect"

I never claimed it was not. But I do know it was only for those under a certain age.

Support that claim please I don't beleive that's the way it was in 1972

"It seems Bush was ORDERED to take his physical by his commanding officer and didn't do it."

Support that.

I just saw the documents on 60 minutes. It will have to wait until some kind of transcript is available. They were newly released documents by the goverment and supported by personal records of his commanding officer.

Edit: Here it is I think, haven't looked at it all yet

60 Minutes transcript Sept 8th

I thought records meant nothing for you. You want hard facts.

I said records can be falsified. I still say that. Are you agreeing to the possibility of that now, or just trying to play me again?

I also said "the preponderence of evidence" and this is just more evidence against Bush's version of the story. There is a short video you can watch also , but it isn't as complete as the show was.

Mintz admitted he's not a smoking gun.

"I cannot say he was not there," Mintz said. "Absolutely positively was not there. I cannot say that. I cannot say he didn't do his duty."

ridiculous. I watched the video.

I can't find the docs they are refering in the video. So I can't see what it really said. I don't trust civies to propertly read these docs.

People aren't ordered to take flight physicals, they are scheduled on the month of their birth.
Like I said before if he disobeyed a "direct order" his C/O would have had Bush's nuts.

They also mention how they talked about "getting him out of guard duty to work on a campaign."
So. Not uncommon. Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders are flexible in letting their charges take care of career affairs until they return or transfer to another unit near their new employment. As long as Bush was making 50 pts a year they had no problem.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
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I can't find any links to the documents either.

I don't think they mentioned it in the short video, but Bush's CO was getting pressure from his CO (Staudt)and felt that Bush was going "over his head".

Staudt retired as a Bigadeir General and I don't believe you can get to that rank if your not political. He was contacted to be interviewed for the show, but declined.

People aren't ordered to take flight physicals, they are scheduled on the month of their birth.
If he didn't take his scheduled flight physical then perhaps he was ordered to take one. After all, it is a requirement. That is why it is scheduled automatically.

They also mention how they talked about "getting him out of guard duty to work on a campaign."
So. Not uncommon. Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders are flexible in letting their charges take care of career affairs until they return or transfer to another unit near their new employment.

He wanted off quite a bit of time, it wasn't just a week-end or two he was asking for. It was actually asking a lot in my opinion considering it was for just to play politics, not a "career change". Were back to the "Statement of Intent" again IMO.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I can't find any links to the documents either.

I don't think they mentioned it in the short video, but Bush's CO was getting pressure from his CO (Staudt)and felt that Bush was going "over his head".

Staudt retired as a Bigadeir General and I don't believe you can get to that rank if your not political. He was contacted to be interviewed for the show, but declined.

People aren't ordered to take flight physicals, they are scheduled on the month of their birth.
If he didn't take his scheduled flight physical then perhaps he was ordered to take one. After all, it is a requirement. That is why it is scheduled automatically.

They also mention how they talked about "getting him out of guard duty to work on a campaign."
So. Not uncommon. Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders are flexible in letting their charges take care of career affairs until they return or transfer to another unit near their new employment.

He wanted off quite a bit of time, it wasn't just a week-end or two he was asking for. It was actually asking a lot in my opinion considering it was for just to play politics, not a "career change". Were back to the "Statement of Intent" again IMO.

"He wanted off quite a bit of time, it wasn't just a week-end or two he was asking for. It was actually asking a lot in my opinion considering it was for just to play politics, not a "career change". "
Argue with the Guard, thats how they do things. Not usual for that amount of time. This has very little to do with his "Statement of Intent" He was not breaking any of it.

"If he didn't take his scheduled flight physical then perhaps he was ordered to take one. After all, it is a requirement. That is why it is scheduled automatically."
It is possible for someone to be ordered to do. And failing to do so has serious consequences, no indiction he was ever punish for disobeying an order. They don't take that lightly. But it seem unlikely he would be ordered to. Seeing that he did not fly since April of 1972 and a ton of more qualified pliot would have been ahead of him. Again he was on non-flight status. No need for a physical.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
It seems missing a physical is a big deal

Missing Papers On Bush's Service

"For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Mr. Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972."

Yes it is a big deal, very serious. An investigation would have been launched, had he been on flight status.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
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"If he didn't take his scheduled flight physical then perhaps he was ordered to take one. After all, it is a requirement. That is why it is scheduled automatically."

It is possible for someone to be ordered to do. And failing to do so has serious consequences, no indiction he was ever punish for disobeying an order. They don't take that lightly. But it seem unlikely he would be ordered to. Seeing that he did not fly since April of 1972 and a ton of more qualified pliot would have been ahead of him. Again he was on non-flight status. No need for a physical.

I thought he quit flying in April because that was when he was supposed to take his acheduled flight physical. That was when he was grounded and given until Aug 1 to get it taken (3 months)?

There were supossed to be records generated by not taking your physical:

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Mr. Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Mr. Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
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91
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
"If he didn't take his scheduled flight physical then perhaps he was ordered to take one. After all, it is a requirement. That is why it is scheduled automatically."

It is possible for someone to be ordered to do. And failing to do so has serious consequences, no indiction he was ever punish for disobeying an order. They don't take that lightly. But it seem unlikely he would be ordered to. Seeing that he did not fly since April of 1972 and a ton of more qualified pliot would have been ahead of him. Again he was on non-flight status. No need for a physical.

I thought he quit flying in April because that was when he was supposed to take his acheduled flight physical. That was when he was grounded and given until Aug 1 to get it taken (3 months)?

There were supossed to be records generated by not taking your physical:

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Mr. Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Mr. Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.

"There were supossed to be records generated by not taking your physical:"
Yes. Paperwork
There are other names on that sheet other than Bush's. It was to let his unit know if he was ever going to fly in the future (or anyone else on that sheet) he would he to take a medical exam.

I thought of a better analogy to explain the "Statement of Indent" I think I did a rather poor job.
analogy: In College you usually want to declare your major. Say, I entered in college with the full expectation that I wanted to be an engineer (a lifetime goal if you must). And I try at it for awhile and decide its not for me, I want to go into Business. If fine with the college then you can. If Bush wanted to do another duty in the ANG that would be fine. The last thing they wanted were disgruntled pliots.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
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It seems it comes down to why did he quit flying in April of 72? Was it the physical? Why weren't the reports generated? When your in the military, you don't tell them what your going to do, they tell you. The whole thing smells fishy to me.

Why didn't he take his physical? It's such a simple thing to do? Why did he quit flying?? What about the gaps in his attendance? There seems to be some big ones.

And why did he have 6 months tacked on to the end of his original military obligation?
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
It seems it comes down to why did he quit flying in April of 72? Was it the physical? Why weren't the reports generated? When your in the military, you don't tell them what your going to do, they tell you. The whole thing smells fishy to me.

Why didn't he take his physical? It's such a simple thing to do? Why did he quit flying?? What about the gaps in his attendance? There seems to be some big ones.

And why did he have 6 months tacked on to the end of his original military obligation?

"Why didn't he take his physical?"
Not needed when your on non-flying status

"It's such a simple thing to do?"
In the Air National Guard the physical has to be done by a Flight Surgeon. A regular doctor won't do. Then there is the added problem of being in the reserves. Flight Surgeon aren't always available. Maybe once a month to give physicals. Why go though all the trouble if your on non-flight status?

"What about the gaps in his attendance"
From what I posted above:
I looked at Bush's drill history, which has been floating around on the Internet for a couple of years, and I fail to see what the fuss is about. he earned 4 points in October 72 and 8 points in November of 72, which carried him through December, since you should average 4 points per month or 48 per year. (That's 4 points per month times 12 months.)

[Digression here. You also earn 15 points per year just for belonging to the active reserves or individual ready reserves. Add the 15 to the 48 and you have 63 points for the year. Guess what? You can only credit 60 inactive duty points per year towards retirement. That means that the average reservist is wasting points that count towards retirement. Couple that with the fact that only 50 points are needed for a good year, and the clear implication is that reservists are expected to miss at least some of their drills. Which is actually the case--I forget what percent attendance individual reservists are supposed to meet, and I forget what percent of total unit attendance units are supposed to meet, but I can guarantee that it is not 100%. End digression.]

Bush then earned 6 points twice in January 73, which equals 12, which is equivalent to 3 months, which carried him through March, so lo and behold, he drilled again in April, earning 4 points. Then in May, he drilled 4 times, earning 3, 3, 4, and 3 points respectively, or 13 points total. That carried him through July 73. Bush got good years for both 1972 and 1973, and left the service with an honorable discharge. That means he did what he was supposed to.

"When your in the military, you don't tell them what your going to do, they tell you."
I don't understand what orders he violated. He was in the guard; not a full time member. He held other jobs while in the guard. Yes, but the guard is a little lax about attendence. But that really depends on the unit. Some are not so flexiable

From a post above again:
Some drilling reservists have very flexible "scheduled" drills, i.e., they can drill almost whenever they feel like it as long as the project they are working on gets completed when it is supposed to.

So what I see is an entirely normal drilling record for a reservist who, like so many of them, is holding down two or three careers at a time (counting the military as one of them).

Edit: "Why did he quit flying??"
He could have quit for any number of reasons.
Main one is too many pliots in his unit. They wanted to get rid of some.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
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When your in the military, you don't tell them what your going to do, they tell you."
Yes, but the guard is a little lax about attendence. But that really depends on the unit. Some are not so flexiable

LOL, I guess the champange unit was pretty lax, huh, hehehe.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
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Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
When your in the military, you don't tell them what your going to do, they tell you."
Yes, but the guard is a little lax about attendence. But that really depends on the unit. Some are not so flexiable

LOL, I guess the champange unit was pretty lax, huh, hehehe.

But remember the Vietnam War was winding down. Too many people in the Guard.
 

Miramonti

Lifer
Aug 26, 2000
28,653
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After seeing 60 minutes it confirmed one thing, that Bush lied about nat'l guard service and has been full of crap all this time. Just like his son, GW.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
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I don't beleive they were letting people sheirk their duties because they were too many people in the guard. He still should have taken his scheduled physical. I haven't seen you present any evidence of why he didn't except that it was a waste of time because he wasn't flying.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Why wasn't the flying? Why did he just stop flying on April 17, 1972???

Why did Ellington Air Force Base Lieutenant Colonel's Harris and Killian say they couldn't fill out his annual evaluation because he was not seen on base from May1. 1972 to April 30, 1973?

Why did he have 6 months tacked on to his time?

Why is there speculation about cocaine problems and talk of time in a drug rehab?

I think there is more to this then the available records indicate.
 

fjord

Senior member
Feb 18, 2004
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Published on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 by the Boston Globe

Bush Fell Short on Duty at Guard
Records Show Pledges Unmet
by the Globe Spotlight Team -- reporters Stephen Kurkjian, Francie Latour, Sacha Pfeiffer, and Michael Rezendes, and editor Walter V. Robinson. It was written by Robinson.

In February, when the White House made public hundreds of pages of President Bush's military records, White House officials repeatedly insisted that the records prove that Bush fulfilled his military commitment in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.


But Bush fell well short of meeting his military obligation, a Globe reexamination of the records shows: Twice during his Guard service -- first when he joined in May 1968, and again before he transferred out of his unit in mid-1973 to attend Harvard Business School -- Bush signed documents pledging to meet training commitments or face a punitive call-up to active duty.

He didn't meet the commitments, or face the punishment, the records show. The 1973 document has been overlooked in news media accounts. The 1968 document has received scant notice.


On July 30, 1973, shortly before he moved from Houston to Cambridge, Bush signed a document that declared, ''It is my responsibility to locate and be assigned to another Reserve forces unit or mobilization augmentation position. If I fail to do so, I am subject to involuntary order to active duty for up to 24 months. . . " Under Guard regulations, Bush had 60 days to locate a new unit.


But Bush never signed up with a Boston-area unit. In 1999, Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett told the Washington Post that Bush finished his six-year commitment at a Boston area Air Force Reserve unit after he left Houston. Not so, Bartlett now concedes. ''I must have misspoke," Bartlett, who is now the White House communications director, said in a recent interview.


And early in his Guard service, on May 27, 1968, Bush signed a ''statement of understanding" pledging to achieve ''satisfactory participation" that included attendance at 24 days of annual weekend duty -- usually involving two weekend days each month -- and 15 days of annual active duty. ''I understand that I may be ordered to active duty for a period not to exceed 24 months for unsatisfactory participation," the statement reads.


Yet Bush, a fighter-interceptor pilot, performed no service for one six-month period in 1972 and for another period of almost three months in 1973, the records show.


The reexamination of Bush's records by the Globe, along with interviews with military specialists who have reviewed regulations from that era, show that Bush's attendance at required training drills was so irregular that his superiors could have disciplined him or ordered him to active duty in 1972, 1973, or 1974. But they did neither. In fact, Bush's unit certified in late 1973 that his service had been ''satisfactory" -- just four months after Bush's commanding officer wrote that Bush had not been seen at his unit for the previous 12 months.


Bartlett, in a statement to the Globe last night, sidestepped questions about Bush's record. In the statement, Bartlett asserted again that Bush would not have been honorably discharged if he had not ''met all his requirements." In a follow-up e-mail, Bartlett declared: ''And if he hadn't met his requirements you point to, they would have called him up for active duty for up to two years."


That assertion by the White House spokesman infuriates retired Army Colonel Gerald A. Lechliter, one of a number of retired military officers who have studied Bush's records and old National Guard regulations, and reached different conclusions.


''He broke his contract with the United States government -- without any adverse consequences. And the Texas Air National Guard was complicit in allowing this to happen," Lechliter said in an interview yesterday. ''He was a pilot. It cost the government a million dollars to train him to fly. So he should have been held to an even higher standard."


Even retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert C. Lloyd Jr., a former Texas Air National Guard personnel chief who vouched for Bush at the White House's request in February, agreed that Bush walked away from his obligation to join a reserve unit in the Boston area when he moved to Cambridge in September 1973. By not joining a unit in Massachusetts, Lloyd said in an interview last month, Bush ''took a chance that he could be called up for active duty. But the war was winding down, and he probably knew that the Air Force was not enforcing the penalty."


But Lloyd said that singling out Bush for criticism is unfair. ''There were hundreds of guys like him who did the same thing," he said.


Lawrence J. Korb, an assistant secretary of defense for manpower and reserve affairs in the Reagan administration, said after studying many of the documents that it is clear to him that Bush ''gamed the system." And he agreed with Lloyd that Bush was not alone in doing so. ''If I cheat on my income tax and don't get caught, I'm still cheating on my income tax," Korb said.


After his own review, Korb said Bush could have been ordered to active duty for missing more than 10 percent of his required drills in any given year. Bush, according to the records, fell shy of that obligation in two successive fiscal years.


Korb said Bush also made a commitment to complete his six-year obligation when he moved to Cambridge, a transfer the Guard often allowed to accommodate Guardsmen who had to move elsewhere. ''He had a responsibility to find a unit in Boston and attend drills," said Korb, who is now affiliated with a liberal Washington think tank. ''I see no evidence or indication in the documents that he was given permission to forgo training before the end of his obligation. If he signed that document, he should have fulfilled his obligation."


The documents Bush signed only add to evidence that the future president -- then the son of Houston's congressman -- received favorable treatment when he joined the Guard after graduating from Yale in 1968. Ben Barnes, who was speaker of the Texas House of Representatives in 1968, said in a deposition in 2000 that he placed a call to get young Bush a coveted slot in the Guard at the request of a Bush family friend.


Bush was given an automatic commission as a second lieutenant, and dispatched to flight school in Georgia for 13 months. In June 1970, after five additional months of specialized training in F-102 fighter-interceptor, Bush began what should have been a four-year assignment with the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron.


In May 1972, Bush was given permission to move to Alabama temporarily to work on a US Senate campaign, with the provision that he do equivalent training with a unit in Montgomery. But Bush's service records do not show him logging any service in Alabama until October of that year.


And even that service is in doubt. Since the Globe first reported Bush's spotty attendance record in May 2000, no one has come forward with any credible recollection of having witnessed Bush performing guard service in Alabama or after he returned to Houston in 1973. While Bush was in Alabama, he was removed from flight status for failing to take his annual flight physical in July 1972. On May 1, 1973, Bush's superior officers wrote that they could not complete his annual performance review because he had not been observed at the Houston base during the prior 12 months.


Although the records of Bush's service in 1973 are contradictory, some of them suggest that he did a flurry of drills in 1973 in Houston -- a weekend in April and then 38 days of training crammed into May, June, and July. But Lechliter, the retired colonel, concluded after reviewing National Guard regulations that Bush should not have received credit -- or pay -- for many of those days either. The regulations, Lechliter and others said, required that any scheduled drills that Bush missed be made up either within 15 days before or 30 days after the date of the drill.

Lechliter said the records push him to conclude that Bush had little interest in fulfilling his obligation, and his superiors preferred to look the other way. Others agree. ''It appears that no one wanted to hold him accountable," said retired Major General Paul A. Weaver Jr., who retired in 2002 as the Pentagon's director of the Air National Guard.
© Copyright 2004 Boston Globe
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
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91
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I don't beleive they were letting people sheirk their duties because they were too many people in the guard. He still should have taken his scheduled physical. I haven't seen you present any evidence of why he didn't except that it was a waste of time because he wasn't flying.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Why wasn't the flying? Why did he just stop flying on April 17, 1972???

Why did Ellington Air Force Base Lieutenant Colonel's Harris and Killian say they couldn't fill out his annual evaluation because he was not seen on base from May1. 1972 to April 30, 1973?

Why did he have 6 months tacked on to his time?

Why is there speculation about cocaine problems and talk of time in a drug rehab?

I think there is more to this then the available records indicate.

"He still should have taken his scheduled physical."
Are you doing this on purpose?

"I don't beleive they were letting people sheirk their duties"
He didn't "sheirk" his duties. If you miss time you make it up. Records show he had above the 50 pt to be in good standing.

"Why did Ellington Air Force Base Lieutenant Colonel's Harris and Killian say they couldn't fill out his annual evaluation because he was not seen on base from May1. 1972 to April 30, 1973?"
Again from what I posted before.

In military lingo that does not mean he did not show up. "not been observed at" is the same writing N/A on a form. Say I have a record on you for your job and I have to evaluate you. Say I never showed up too observe how you do your job, and don't have that infomation, I would just write: "not been observed at"

"Why did he just stop flying on April 17, 1972???"
Unit's misson changed. No need for F-102 pliots.

"Why did he have 6 months tacked on to his time?"
Did not have 6 months "tacked" to his time. The November 21, 1974 date is when he got out of the IRR (Inactive Ready Reserve) He was discharged from Active duty in October 2, 1973

After you leave active duty you enter into the IRR. My service commitment was 15 years. 5 years Active Duty, 10 years IRR. In the IRR you are not required to show up or do drills, just leave a forwarding address. Essentally you get discharged twice.

"Why is there speculation about cocaine problems and talk of time in a drug rehab?"
That is for another thread.

"I think there is more to this then the available records indicate."
Sure there might be. But don't keep your hopes up. The only reason why people demended that Bush release his records is so they can on a fishing expedition.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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Ignoring a direct order -- that seems pretty serious:

Records Say Bush Balked at Order

National Guard Commander Suspended Him From Flying, Papers Show

By Michael Dobbs and Thomas B. Edsall
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, September 9, 2004; Page A01

President Bush failed to carry out a direct order from his superior in the Texas Air National Guard in May 1972 to undertake a medical examination that was necessary for him to remain a qualified pilot, according to documents made public yesterday.

Documents obtained by the CBS News program "60 Minutes" shed new light on one of the most controversial episodes in Bush's military service, when he abruptly stopped flying and moved from Texas to Alabama to work on a political campaign. The documents include a memo from Bush's squadron commander, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, ordering Bush "to be suspended from flight status for failure to perform" to U.S. Air Force and National Guard standards and failure to take his annual physical "as ordered."

The new documents surfaced as the Bush administration released for the first time the president's personal flight logs, which have been the focus of repeated archival searches and Freedom of Information Act requests dating to the 2000 presidential campaign. The logs show that Bush stopped flying in April 1972 after accumulating more than 570 hours of flight time between 1969 and 1972, much of it on an F-102 interceptor jet.

[...]
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: fjord
Published on Wednesday, September 8, 2004 by the Boston Globe

Bush Fell Short on Duty at Guard
Records Show Pledges Unmet
by the Globe Spotlight Team -- reporters Stephen Kurkjian, Francie Latour, Sacha Pfeiffer, and Michael Rezendes, and editor Walter V. Robinson. It was written by Robinson.

*snip*
On July 30, 1973, shortly before he moved from Houston to Cambridge, Bush signed a document that declared, ''It is my responsibility to locate and be assigned to another Reserve forces unit or mobilization augmentation position. If I fail to do so, I am subject to involuntary order to active duty for up to 24 months. . . " Under Guard regulations, Bush had 60 days to locate a new unit.

*snip*

© Copyright 2004 Boston Globe

Relevant Document in Question.

To the untrained eye, the item entitled penalty for bad attendance gives the appearance that George Bush was punished for not attending drill. The improper, and probably intentional, mislabeling of it coupled with the poor quality of the copy leads people to believe that Bush was AWOL. This is NOT the case. Perhaps if anyone bothered to take the time to read it they would see that this is a counseling sattement informing the service member what can happen if he fails to fulfill his obligation to the guard. This is standard practice. The words have probably changed since Vietnam but most service members are counseled on their service obligation and it is done in writing to prevent any of the I did't know that stuff from happening. My expertise would be in the Army but I can not imagine the Air Force is much different. Read it carefully, It states:
j. I have been counseled this date regarding the provisions of DOD Directive 1215.15, 23 February 1967. I understand that I may be ordered to active duty for a period not to exceed 24 months for unsatisfactory participation as presently defined in Chapter 41, AFM 35-3. Further, I understand that if I am unable to satisfactorily participate in the ANG, and have an unfulfilled military service obligation, that I may be discharged from the State ANG and assigned to the Obligated Reserve Section (ORS), AF Reserve, Denver Colorado and subject to active duty for a period not to exceed a total of 24 months considering all previous active duty and active duty for training tours.
This, my friends, is a counseling statement (like informed consent). A statement showing he had been counseled. I'll bet there is one like it in every ANG member's record who served during that time. Furthermore, it is obvious they intentionally tried to deceive readers because this is item (j). Where are items a-i? Missing because they probably help the reader to understand the form. Hell, I'll bet the first page has a title that would debunk the whole claim. That would be a good reason to leave it out.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
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CaptainGoodnight,

You seem like a pretty decent guy. I didn't think I was going to like you at first, but I was wrong.

The Sunday Times
SUN 18 JUN 2000
Ed: 1GN
Pg: News 23
Word Count: 987 Bush flies into an air force cocaine cloud
THE Republican frontrunner for the White House, George W Bush, was suspended from flying as a young pilot for failing to take a medical examination that included a drug test. Documents obtained by The Sunday Times reveal that in August 1972, as a 26-...

I personally think Bush had a drug problem that fvked him up for a while, and it has been covered up right along with a lot of missed drills, etc. A lot of people had drug problems in those days and I was one of them, LOL. I, however wasn't in the ANG, so I don't have to make excuses for it.

In my mind there is little (if any) doubt that especially GWB and the rest of the champange unit got lots of breaks that the rest of us didn't get. It urks me that as President he got in such a hurry to start the war with Iraq. It seems to me that my whole generation has turned into nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

Although the records of Bush's service in 1973 are contradictory, some of them suggest that he did a flurry of drills in 1973 in Houston -- a weekend in April and then 38 days of training crammed into May, June, and July. But Lechliter, the retired colonel, concluded after reviewing National Guard regulations that Bush should not have received credit -- or pay -- for many of those days either. The regulations, Lechliter and others said, required that any scheduled drills that Bush missed be made up either within 15 days before or 30 days after the date of the drill.

Lechliter said the records push him to conclude that Bush had little interest in fulfilling his obligation, and his superiors preferred to look the other way. Others agree. ''It appears that no one wanted to hold him accountable," said retired Major General Paul A. Weaver Jr., who retired in 2002 as the Pentagon's director of the Air National Guard.
© Copyright 2004 Boston Globe

I think the above quote from fjord's post sums it up pretty well. Below is another link to some information about the way it was back then. The old double standard. I hated it then and I still hate it. If GWB had been in Vietnam (or anywhere even close) I don't think he would have been in such a hurry to start the Iraqi war. That's why I won't be voting for Bush. Time for bed.

Privilege
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
1 memo 4, 1972

2 memo may 19, 72

3 memo aug 1, 72


4 memo aug 18, 73

Here are the documents that CBS obtained, however I am going to have to question their validity as they look like they were produced by a word processor and not a fixed pitch typewriter( i know of no word processers available in 72).

Notice the obvious example in document 4 witht he 187th. I dont know of any typewrite that could do superscript.

Nor do they look like the documents that were officially released

Feel free to correct my knowledge of 70s model typewrites and word processors.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Here are the documents that CBS obtained, however I am going to have to question their validity as they look like they were produced by a word processor and not a fixed pitch typewriter( i know of no word processers available in 72).
Conspiracy?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: charrison
Here are the documents that CBS obtained, however I am going to have to question their validity as they look like they were produced by a word processor and not a fixed pitch typewriter( i know of no word processers available in 72).
Conspiracy?


It is possible
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
1 memo 4, 1972

2 memo may 19, 72

3 memo aug 1, 72


4 memo aug 18, 73

Here are the documents that CBS obtained, however I am going to have to question their validity as they look like they were produced by a word processor and not a fixed pitch typewriter( i know of no word processers available in 72).

Notice the obvious example in document 4 witht he 187th. I dont know of any typewrite that could do superscript.

Nor do they look like the documents that were officially released

Feel free to correct my knowledge of 70s model typewrites and word processors.

LOL!!

The documents were already examined by CBS and their experts, but you question their validity based on the type??

I can't recall for sure, but I think some of the typewriters of the era had special symbols on them. Remember the typewriters that had the ball heads on them instead of individual arms for each key/letter.

 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Selectric_typewriter

Both Selectric I and Selectric II were available in standard, medium, and wide-carriage models and in various colors, including red and blue as well as traditional neutral colors, and both used the same typeballs, which were available in many fonts, including symbols for science and mathematics, OCR faces for scanning by computers, script, Old English, and more than a dozen ordinary alphabets.

No doubt it was possible to do "th" back then.
 
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