Bush where was he?

[maluckey]

So, what we have is Kerry hurting the war effort, and Bush playing the system like a Harp.

Weasels both, but nothing new to politics.

The Unit files (possibly forged) are NOT part of official Military records, and the SAME Commander gave Bush a glowing OER for his official military files. Go figure.........

While it should be investigated, if for nothing else than to find why the typewriter could do what no other in the early Seventies could!

The new "Kerry got me tortured ads" are about as good, and aren't forged. They are likely embellished, but at least the guys giving the information were there, not like some of the soldiers used by Kerry to support his Winter Soldier testimony, who were not even in the military, and who had ZERO knowledge of Phoenix whatsoever.

If all boils down to this...which weasel can at least get us to the next election without tanking the econaomy, or having a terrorist luncheon with the effite Euro-Snobs.

 

[arsbanned]

Kerry hurting the war effort, getting people tortured and having lunch with terrorists, yeah you're objective there maluckey....

 

[Crimson]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
Kerry hurting the war effort, getting people tortured and having lunch with terrorists, yeah you're objective there maluckey....

You're right.. he never had LUNCH with terrorists.

 

[arsbanned]

George W. Bush began flying a two-seat training jet more frequently and twice required multiple attempts to land a one-seat fighter in the weeks just before he quit flying for the Texas Air National Guard in 1972, his pilot logs show.

The logs show Bush flew nine times in T-33 trainers in February and March 1972, including eight times in one week and four of those only as a co-pilot. Bush, then a first lieutenant, flew in T-33s only twice in the previous six months and three times in the year ending July 31, 1971.

The records also show Bush required two passes to land an F-102A fighter on March 12 and April 10, 1972. His last flight as an Air National Guard pilot was on April 16.

Some pilot he was. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! :disgust:
http://apnews.myway.com//artic...0040910/D850NRDO0.html

It sounds as if he was just as good a pilot as he is president....

 

[Red Dawn]

Memos state Bush failed to mee... refused direct order

George W. Bush failed to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam war, that he refused a direct order and that his superiors were in a state of turmoil over how to evaluate his performance after he was suspended from flying.

 

[chess9]

'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.

Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.

The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.

The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.

But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.

"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."

The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.

But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.

"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.

"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."

Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.

"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."

He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972, memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.

"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"

The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.

"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.

"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."

But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.

"There weren't any typewriters that did that," Haley said. "That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically."

According to an article on the CBS News website, the news program "consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic."


This belongs in the stickied thread at the top

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

I'm interested in who supplied the "memos" - but yeah, the "experts" need to be identified too.

CsG

If true, then here's a key piece of insight from the WaPo:

A senior CBS official, who asked not to be named because CBS managers did not want to go beyond their official statement, named one of the network's sources as retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, the immediate superior of the documents' alleged author, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that "these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time."

"These documents represent what Killian not only was putting in memoranda, but was telling other people," the CBS News official said. "Journalistically, we've gone several extra miles."

The official said the network regarded Hodges's comments as "the trump card" on the question of authenticity, as he is a Republican who acknowledged that he did not want to hurt Bush. Hodges, who declined to grant an on-camera interview to CBS, did not respond to messages left on his home answering machine in Texas.

My guess, and I'm totally serious, would be an acquaintance in the Karl Rove camp here in TX. MG Hodges simply played along with the bluff. The CBS documents probably emerged as recently as Tuesday or Wednesday of this week. From the 60 Minutes II transcript:

Robert Strong was a friend and colleague of Col. Killian who ran the Texas Air National Guard administrative office in the Vietnam era. Strong, now a college professor, believes these documents are genuine.

I'd say Strong went along with the bluff as well. The document segments were merely spliced into the interview with Barnes. Another factor to consider is that the entire interview with Barnes wasn't broadcast as originally intended.

<big time speculation mode>

Yesterday, with a Vegas-style "poker face" the White House rather strangely distributed faxed copies of the CBS documents to the media. This maneuver served a couple of strategic purposes. Firstly, widespread dissemination meant generation of more exposure. Secondly, the public, which includes the evolving underground new media, would also have the ability to fully scutinize the documents in question and therefore effectively debunk the authenticity.

CBS was caught up in a media frenzy. With the pending release of the Lechliter report by the NYT/Boston Globe, the "Tiffany Network" sought to land a whopper of it's own. Meanwhile, because of the Abu Ghraib scandal coverage, Rove went after CBS. It also wouldn't be a stretch to say that Rove, MG Hodges and Dr. Strong are all old drinking buddies either.

</big time speculation mode>

Absolutely brilliant maneuver by Rove and Co. Looks like he'll get a spot along side Carville on one of the talk shows after this election.

 

[arsbanned]

"Absolutely brilliant maneuver by Rove and Co. Looks like he'll get a spot along side Carville on one of the talk shows after this election."

You mean he won't be at "an undisclosed location" with Cheney?

 

[chess9]

Why would anyone doctor these documents unless they were prejudicial to Bush or someone was CYA?

I'm trying to understand a)Why they would do it; b)Why they would think they could get away with it; c)Who would do it; and d)When was it done?

-Robert

 

[gordy]

Al Gore invented the wordprocessor

 

[heartsurgeon]

forgive me if this has already been posted.....

the real story nehind BWB and the National Guard:

Before you fall for Dems? spin, here are the facts

Bush dutifully spent nearly 8 years in the Air National Guard.

The Beginning in in May 1968.
Six weeks of basic training.
Fifty-three weeks of flight training.
Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.

Full-time training for 80 weeks.
After training, Bush racked up hundreds of hours of flight time/year in F-102 jets.
(a minimum of 50 points/year required).

Bush earned 253 points in his first year.
Bush earned 340 points in the next year.
He earned 137 points in the next year.
He earned 112 points in the next year.
Next year he asked for time off to work on a political campaign, and earned 56 points.
Next year he accumulated 56 points.

Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment.

He served nearly six years in the Air National Guard,
Two of the six years were full time,
The Kerry camp chants he was "AWOL" or "didn't serve" because he received permission to work on a political campaign, and the records of his guard service during that time are incomplete (through no fault of GWB).

GWB doesn't go around making his National Guard service the theme to his Presidency.
GWB has never stated anything about Kerry's service other that "We honor his service"
Now, CBS News runs an interview:

with a member of the Kerry Election staff,
who is a life-long Texas Democrat,
who has contribued cash to Kerry's election,
who produces "letters" from a dead/ man,
which the family states they never gave him,
and never saw before
which appear with typographic characteristics seen in Microsoft Word (in 1972!!)

claiming Bush (without his knowledge mind you) was coddled and steered throught the Guard and treated like a little Prince.

Shame on Kerry (like there is any way he didn't know about this, shame on the Democrats, and shame on those who repeat this drivel.

Bush served nearly 6 years in the Air National Guard, two years full time.

Edwards was nowhere in sight during Vietnam,
and Clinton was in England trying to get some, while reneging on a written contract with his local draft board to serve.

Lets move on to descuss Kerry's love affair with Communists, like those from North Vietnam (whom he visited), or those in Nicaragua (who he praised on the floor of the Senate, one week before Ortega pops up in Moscow to receive 200,000,000 in aide)

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Lets move on to descuss Kerry's love affair with Communists, like those from North Vietnam (whom he visited), or those in Nicaragua (who he praised on the floor of the Senate, one week before Ortega pops up in Moscow to receive 200,000,000 in aide)

Unlike the Nun killing terrorists we were supporting against Ortega who were financed by the CIA and traitors like Ollie North by selling arms to Iran and funneling drugs to our nations youth.

 

[burnedout]

Robert:

My theory is that these documents were held out of CBS' hands until just shortly before the broadcasts. MG Hodges and Strong, playing along with the game, convinced CBS of the authenticity.

There's further speculation going around that suggests the docs originated from the Kerry camp. But, personally, I think Rove, MG Hodges and Robert Strong were all in on the incident.

On a final note, people continually praise the great scrutiny of government afforded by the American media. This little episode should also remind us that the media itself deserves like consideration. As much as the press examines government, similar, if not greater critical examination is required of the press.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
forgive me if this has already been posted.....

the real story nehind BWB and the National Guard:

Before you fall for Dems? spin, here are the facts

Bush dutifully spent nearly 8 years in the Air National Guard.

The Beginning in in May 1968.
Six weeks of basic training.
Fifty-three weeks of flight training.
Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.

Full-time training for 80 weeks.
After training, Bush racked up hundreds of hours of flight time/year in F-102 jets.
(a minimum of 50 points/year required).

Bush earned 253 points in his first year.
Bush earned 340 points in the next year.
He earned 137 points in the next year.
He earned 112 points in the next year.
Next year he asked for time off to work on a political campaign, and earned 56 points.
Next year he accumulated 56 points.

Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment.

He served nearly six years in the Air National Guard,
Two of the six years were full time,
The Kerry camp chants he was "AWOL" or "didn't serve" because he received permission to work on a political campaign, and the records of his guard service during that time are incomplete (through no fault of GWB).

GWB doesn't go around making his National Guard service the theme to his Presidency.
GWB has never stated anything about Kerry's service other that "We honor his service"
Now, CBS News runs an interview:

with a member of the Kerry Election staff,
who is a life-long Texas Democrat,
who has contribued cash to Kerry's election,
who produces "letters" from a dead/ man,
which the family states they never gave him,
and never saw before
which appear with typographic characteristics seen in Microsoft Word (in 1972!!)

claiming Bush (without his knowledge mind you) was coddled and steered throught the Guard and treated like a little Prince.

Shame on Kerry (like there is any way he didn't know about this, shame on the Democrats, and shame on those who repeat this drivel.

Bush served nearly 6 years in the Air National Guard, two years full time.

Edwards was nowhere in sight during Vietnam,
and Clinton was in England trying to get some, while reneging on a written contract with his local draft board to serve.

Lets move on to descuss Kerry's love affair with Communists, like those from North Vietnam (whom he visited), or those in Nicaragua (who he praised on the floor of the Senate, one week before Ortega pops up in Moscow to receive 200,000,000 in aide)

Hmmm... just like Bush had nooooooooo idea about the Swiftboat guys or wasn't behind it... :|

Just like a bad marriage, he was married for 6 years to the National Guard but was seperated for about 4 of them.

Last time I checked, Clinton wasn't running for office.

Edwards was too young to serve during the height of the war. OMG, he should've been drafted at 15 years old. :roll: He had a high draft number, so therefore he wasn't drafted. What's so hard to understand about that.

Oh and let's see some links about your last paragraph.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Lets move on to descuss Kerry's love affair with Communists, like those from North Vietnam (whom he visited), or those in Nicaragua (who he praised on the floor of the Senate, one week before Ortega pops up in Moscow to receive 200,000,000 in aide)

Unlike the Nun killing terrorists we were supporting against Ortega who were financed by the CIA and traitors like Ollie North by selling arms to Iran and funneling drugs to our nations youth.

This has nothing to do with where bush was in 1972

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: burnedout

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

I'm interested in who supplied the "memos" - but yeah, the "experts" need to be identified too.

CsG

If true, then here's a key piece of insight from the WaPo:

A senior CBS official, who asked not to be named because CBS managers did not want to go beyond their official statement, named one of the network's sources as retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, the immediate superior of the documents' alleged author, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that "these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time."

"These documents represent what Killian not only was putting in memoranda, but was telling other people," the CBS News official said. "Journalistically, we've gone several extra miles."

The official said the network regarded Hodges's comments as "the trump card" on the question of authenticity, as he is a Republican who acknowledged that he did not want to hurt Bush. Hodges, who declined to grant an on-camera interview to CBS, did not respond to messages left on his home answering machine in Texas.

My guess, and I'm totally serious, would be an acquaintance in the Karl Rove camp here in TX. MG Hodges simply played along with the bluff. The CBS documents probably emerged as recently as Tuesday or Wednesday of this week. From the 60 Minutes II transcript:

Robert Strong was a friend and colleague of Col. Killian who ran the Texas Air National Guard administrative office in the Vietnam era. Strong, now a college professor, believes these documents are genuine.

I'd say Strong went along with the bluff as well. The document segments were merely spliced into the interview with Barnes. Another factor to consider is that the entire interview with Barnes wasn't broadcast as originally intended.

<big time speculation mode>

Yesterday, with a Vegas-style "poker face" the White House rather strangely distributed faxed copies of the CBS documents to the media. This maneuver served a couple of strategic purposes. Firstly, widespread dissemination meant generation of more exposure. Secondly, the public, which includes the evolving underground new media, would also have the ability to fully scutinize the documents in question and therefore effectively debunk the authenticity.

CBS was caught up in a media frenzy. With the pending release of the Lechliter report by the NYT/Boston Globe, the "Tiffany Network" sought to land a whopper of it's own. Meanwhile, because of the Abu Ghraib scandal coverage, Rove went after CBS. It also wouldn't be a stretch to say that Rove, MG Hodges and Dr. Strong are all old drinking buddies either.

</big time speculation mode>

Absolutely brilliant maneuver by Rove and Co. Looks like he'll get a spot along side Carville on one of the talk shows after this election.

I don't think I buy this whole Rove conspiracy angle. While it sounds nice and all - I think it's just a fall back excuse incase they are 100% proven to be fakes and CBS won't tell exactly where they came from.
It also doesn't make sense for Rove to do this because the AWOL story is fire and there is no reason for Rove to be fanning any flames on Bush's Guard records - even if they are fakes. The "damage" has been done - we've had how many days of headlines? How many headlines will there be when these are officially deemed fakes? How many headlines are there on the questionable nature of these documents? Exactly - there is nothing for Rove to gain except a "gotcha" - I just don't see how it would help Bush to allow this to come out, become headline news, and then be quietly(so far[besides abc]) debunked. I guess we'll see how this plays out but I think people are stretching quite a bit to implicate Rove - especially when you think of the "timing" which is the new chant from the left. A couple days after the convention? A couple days after kerry decides to "get tough"? Hmmm... much more for kerry to gain by having Bush in a supposedly negative headline than Rove/Bush.

CsG

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Lets move on to descuss Kerry's love affair with Communists, like those from North Vietnam (whom he visited), or those in Nicaragua (who he praised on the floor of the Senate, one week before Ortega pops up in Moscow to receive 200,000,000 in aide)

Unlike the Nun killing terrorists we were supporting against Ortega who were financed by the CIA and traitors like Ollie North by selling arms to Iran and funneling drugs to our nations youth.

This has nothing to do with where bush was in 1972

No sh!t Sherlock, it was just a retort to HS's rant about Kerry's so called love of communists.

 

[chess9]

Would it have been possible for some overzealous Kerry supporter to have gotten these records and altered them?

Or, would it have been more likely that these records were altered by someone in the Bush campaign?

I would suspect the former of having the most to gain, but the latter of having the most opportunity.

Hmmm.

Does anyone really doubt these records were altered?

-Robert

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: chess9
Would it have been possible for some overzealous Kerry supporter to have gotten these records and altered them?

Or, would it have been more likely that these records were altered by someone in the Bush campaign?

I would suspect the former of having the most to gain, but the latter of having the most opportunity.

Hmmm.

Does anyone really doubt these records were altered?

-Robert

Why is it a "supporter" vs "campaign" in your mind? Don't you think it possible that if someone thinks Rove is involved that maybe kerry's people are behind it? Also if you think it possible that an "overzealous Kerry supporter" was behind it - don't you also think it possible that an "overzealous" Bush "supporter" could have done it?

I love how this has gone into conspiracy mode already

CsG

 

[chess9]

Cad:

You get an F in the "Helpful and Meaningful Response" category.


You are so accustomed to side-stepping issues you can't face ANY issue head on.

-Robert

 

[burnedout]

CAD: You make a great argument while raising many valid points. The potential media fallout could be devastating for Rove and the current admin. Nevertheless, a few thoughts come to mind.

Personally, I don't view the maneuver from Rove's perspective of merely pulling a "gotcha", so to speak. Two outstanding issues - MG Hodges insistence on document authenticity as reported by the WaPo, and the enthusiastic efforts on behalf of the White House in the actual dissemination - are on the table so far.

Rove himself may not have had any actual prior knowledge of the stunt. This ploy could well have been orchestrated by a couple good old boys down here in TX. Perhaps a call from one of these good old boys motivated the White House to distribute the material in question to as many parties as possible.

If the Dems pulled this off, I wouldn't think of them as *that* stupid based on the document's composition. On the hand, considering various remarks and allegations from that party during the past three years, you may be right.

 

[kage69]

The way FOX is handling this latest development is just priceless. A host asked some "analyst" 'If it does in fact turn out to be that these documents are forgeries, will that look bad for the Democrats?' To which he replied, 'Oh definetly, and I disagree with *token FOX 'democrat' correspondant*'s take on Bush's military service; I think there's no question he fulfilled his obligation and was always at the top of his class."


These guys crack me up. The spin, it's too hilarious...

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: kage69
The way FOX is handling this latest development is just priceless. A host asked some "analyst" 'If it does in fact turn out to be that these documents are forgeries, will that look bad for the Democrats?' To which he replied, 'Oh definetly, and I disagree with *token FOX 'democrat' correspondant*'s take on Bush's military service; I think there's no question he fulfilled his obligation and was always at the top of his class."


These guys crack me up. The spin, it's too hilarious...

At the top of his class?!?!?! OMG!! :laugh: ROFLMMFAO!!

 

[heartsurgeon]

I think Rove, MG Hodges and Robert Strong were all in on the incident.

HAHAHAHA..that's rich...Barnes produced these documents, he works for Kerry, and is a life-long Dem. I suppose your gonna claim that Rove drugged Barnes and made him do it eh?

Edwards was too young to serve during the height of the war. OMG, he should've been drafted at 15 years old. He had a high draft number, so therefore he wasn't drafted. What's so hard to understand about that.

Like I said, he was nowhere to be seen..he was old enough to have served in Vietnam if he wanted to...how on earth is Bush "AWOL" when he serves in the Guard for 6 years, Cheney is "chicken-hawk" because he got deferments from serve..but Edwards gets a total pass because he got a high draft lottery number..oh, i forgot, your a liberal....

Oh and let's see some links about your last paragraph.

Kerry's Most Excellent Nicaragua AdventureHere's my favorite quote:

"I [Kerry]am willing . . . to take the risk in the effort to put to test the good faith of the Sandinistas," he said.

That day, the Sandinistas collected an important victory when the House rejected Reagan's request for aid to their enemy, the contras.

A day later, Daniel Ortega, who had promised to force Soviet and Cuban advisers out of his country if aid to the contras ended, boarded an Aeroflot jet for Moscow to collect a $200 million loan.

Reagan's speechwriters couldn't have scripted a better I-told-you-so ending.

Ortega's trip to Moscow "embarrassed us, to be perfectly truthful," Kerry's powerful Massachusetts colleague, House Speaker Thomas P. O'Neill, said at the time. (But Connecticut Senator Christopher J. Dodd wondered aloud why his Democratic colleagues were so stunned: "Where did my colleagues think he was going to go, Disney World?" he said. "The man is a Marxist.")

Kerry's Most Excellent Paris adventure

Kerry...confirmed through a spokesman that he did go to Paris and talked privately with a leading communist representative...Asked about the appropriateness of Kerry's saying that the United States had "murdered" 200,000 Vietnamese annually when the United States was at war, Kerry spokesman Michael Meehan said "Senator Kerry used a word he deems inappropriate

need more?

 

[burnedout]

heartsurgeon, LOL, you could be right.

Perhaps my earlier statements were made in haste without fully considering all the parties involved. According to the Dallas Morning News, BG Staudt and MG Hodges are the only two surviving unit commanders from that particular era. After conducting a Lexis-Nexis search, I've found nothing indicating that then-LTC Hodges made negative comments regarding President Bush's service or admission to the unit.

Incidentally, I just spoke with my boss who worked in the IBM typewriter division back then. He thinks a younger person (i.e. born after 1970) actually produced the documents in question simply because of the superscripted "th".