Fake Iraq documents 'embarrassing' for U.S.
Why doesn't the GWB come out and call them fake? He certainly has the manpower to prove it if they are forgeries?
Originally posted by: chess9
'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.
Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.
Not common doesn't prove beans, now does it. I lived then and I can remember they had them, especailly the giverment had the latest and best in office equipment.
The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.
He sure did!!
The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.
Documents that he kept to defend his actions should any questions ever arrise.
But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com homed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972, memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News website Thursday.
"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using [fixed-pitch typeface] Courier."
It does not say impossible does it!! Why not, do you suppose? Because it obviously was possible.
Of course they didn't throw all their old typewriters out if they were still good. Only the people who had to do alot of documentation would have had the newer typewriters.
The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter or word processor in the early 1970s.
LOL, this is your proof of frogery?? LOL, pretty damn week!!
"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date [May 4, 1972] on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."
http://cbsnewyork.com/topstori...s_story_254080625.htmlThe White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.
Early in his military career, Mr. Bush received glowing evaluations from Killian, who called Lt. Bush "an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot" who "performed in an outstanding manner."
Documents released this week show Mr. Bush with scores of 88 on an airmanship test, 98 on aviation physiology and 100 on navigational abilities.
The questions about Mr. Bush's service center on how Mr. Bush got into the Guard and whether he fulfilled his duties during a period from mid-1972 to mid-1973.
After taking his last flight in April 1972, Mr. Bush went for six months without showing up for any training drills.
That May, Mr. Bush skipped a required yearly medical examination. In response, his commanders grounded him on Aug. 1, 1972.
In September 1972 he received permission to transfer to the Alabama unit so he could work on a political campaign there.
What the Killian memos purported to show is that Mr. Bush defied a direct order to appear for the physical, that his performance as an officer was lacking in other ways and that Mr. Bush used family connections to try to quash any inquiry into his lapses.
In a separate revelation, the Boston Globe this week reported that Mr. Bush promised to sign up with a Boston-area unit when he left his Texas unit in 1973 to attend Harvard Business School. Mr. Bush never signed up with a Boston unit.
Bartlett claimed in 1999 that Mr. Bush had joined a Boston unit. Bartlett told the Globe this week that he "misspoke."
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Ok, HS... tell me this, did Edwards defer 5 times? Did Edwards shirk his responsibility? He was eligible for the draft, but didn't get called. You know what? How could someone possibly hold that against him?
Edwards turned 18 in 1971 and then went to college... after college the war was almost over. Sorry, your argument is weak.
Authenticity of Bush Guard memos questioned
Friday, September 10, 2004 Posted: 11:38 AM EDT (1538 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos which asserted that George W. Bush ignored an order from a superior officer in the Texas Air National Guard and lost his status as a pilot because he failed to meet military performance standards and undergo a required physical exam.
CBS, which reported on the memos on its "60 Minutes" program, said its experts who examined the documents concluded that they were authentic.
They ostensibly were written by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, one of Bush's commanders in 1972 and 1973.
But Killian's son, one of Killian's fellow officers and an independent document examiner questioned the memos.
Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said he doubted his father would have written an unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.
"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."
The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake.
"They looked to me like forgeries," said Rufus Martin. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years." Killian died in 1984.
Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software.
Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript -- a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" -- as evidence indicating forgery.
Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.
"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Arizona
She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.
The Defense Department released Bush's pilot logs this week under pressure from a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by The Associated Press.
Bush's Vietnam-era Air National Guard service became a focus of Democratic criticism this week amid a flurry of new reports about his activities.
Democrats say Bush shirked his National Guard duties, a claim Bush denies.
Bush joined the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, serving more than a year on active Air Force duty while being trained to fly F-102A jets.
He was honorably discharged from the Guard in October 1973 and left the Air Force Reserves in May 1974.
The first four months of 1972 are at the beginning of a controversial period in Bush's Guard service. After taking his last flight in April 1972, Bush went for six months without reporting for any training drills.
In September 1972 he received permission to transfer to an Alabama Guard unit so he could work on a political campaign there.
That May, Bush also skipped a required yearly medical examination. In response, his commanders grounded Bush on August 1, 1972.
PrivledgeBut Bush was serving in a champagne unit that was refuge for the area sons of privilege. Its ranks included John Conally's son, Lloyd Bentson's son, John Tower's son, SEVEN Dallas Cowboys, and two sons of the businessman who got G W Bush into the Guard ahead of hundreds of others on a waiting list.
Ok, HS... tell me this, did Edwards defer 5 times? Did Edwards shirk his responsibility? He was eligible for the draft, but didn't get called. You know what? How could someone possibly hold that against him?
Originally posted by: bozack
Not looking good for 60 minutes...this will be interesting to see how it unfolds if the media follows it.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOL...sh.guard.ap/index.html
In a telephone interview from her Texas home, Killian's widow, Marjorie Connell, described the records to The Washington Post as "a farce," saying she was with her husband until the day he died in 1984 and that he did not "keep files." She said her husband considered Bush "an excellent pilot."
"I don't think there were any documents. He was not a paper person," she said, adding that she was "livid" at CBS journalists, who she said did not ask her to authenticate the records.
Adding even more fuel to the military records fire were accusations by a woman claiming to be Amy Barnes, daughter of former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes (search ).
The woman said Thursday that Ben Barnes had fabricated claims that he used his influence to pull strings and get Bush into the Texas Air National Guard 36 years ago.
In a phone call to WBAP's Mark Davis radio show in Dallas, Texas, the so-called Amy Barnes said the former lieutenant governor was an "opportunist" who had lied about Bush's Guard record.
"I love my father very much, but he's doing this for purely political reasons," the woman said. "He is a big Kerry fundraiser, and he is writing a book also. And [the Bush story] is what he's leading the book off with ... He denied this to me in 2000 that he did get Bush out [of Vietnam service]. Now he's saying he did."
The alleged Amy Barnes said Ben Barnes was also trying to sell his book. The radio station confirmed that Barnes does have a daughter names Amy, but it was not confirmed that the woman on the air was in fact her.
Originally posted by: bozack
And it gets better......
In a telephone interview from her Texas home, Killian's widow, Marjorie Connell, described the records to The Washington Post as "a farce," saying she was with her husband until the day he died in 1984 and that he did not "keep files." She said her husband considered Bush "an excellent pilot."
"I don't think there were any documents. He was not a paper person," she said, adding that she was "livid" at CBS journalists, who she said did not ask her to authenticate the records.
Woo hoo, this is good stuff.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131997,00.html
Originally posted by: DonVito
I don't see how Ms. Connell really adds any value to this discussion, since my understanding is the memos were purportedly found in Lt Col Killian's personnel records. Again, I don't believe they're genuine, but I can't imagine she would have known anything about it one way or the other.
I would like a Bush supporter to explain how so many poltically connected people ended up in the "champagne unit"
Because they were the children of prominent Texas Democrats[/quote] Why the kids of Republicans got in? Must have been because of merit (Yale alumnus versus a Texas Aggie), cause their parents where in the wrong political party. Ben Barnes was Connally's political mentor, and later went into business with Connally. Lloyd Bentsen was the Dem Senator from Texas.Its ranks included John Conally's son, Lloyd Bentson's son
The White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.
Originally posted by: bozack
It adds to the character discussion of the supposed author of said documents...She might be a good person to ask what her late husband was like and if in fact he would write such a document.
Why the kids of Republicans got in? Must have been because of merit (Yale alumnus versus a Texas Aggie), cause their parents where in the wrong political party. Ben Barnes was Connally's political mentor, and later went into business with Connally. Lloyd Bentsen was the Dem Senator from Texas.Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I would like a Bush supporter to explain how so many poltically connected people ended up in the "champagne unit"Because they were the children of prominent Texas DemocratsIts ranks included John Conally's son, Lloyd Bentson's son
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why doesn't GWB call the CBS documents forgeries? Instead the White House is distributing them?
Ask yourself that question? If GWB were to come out and call them forgeries, I would believe it until someone could prove otherwise. At this point he seems afraid(?) for lack of a better word to do so.
If I were GWB and they released false documents such as these, I would straighten the record out the first chance I had. Come on GWB, defend your reputation. He has had that chance and instead the White House is distributing them? If GWB doesn't denounce the documents as forgeries I will have no choice but to conclude they are real.
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: bozack
It adds to the character discussion of the supposed author of said documents...She might be a good person to ask what her late husband was like and if in fact he would write such a document.
I can't see it. I have written, conservatively, at least 2,000 various military memoranda, and only been in the service a fraction of the time Lt Col Killian has. I don't believe my co-workers, mother, wife, daughter or sister could identify whether I'd written a particular memo last week, let alone 30 years ago.
Just to reiterate, I think these memos are probably faked - I just can't see how interviewing Lt Col Killian's family adds any value to this discussion.
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why doesn't GWB call the CBS documents forgeries? Instead the White House is distributing them?
Ask yourself that question? If GWB were to come out and call them forgeries, I would believe it until someone could prove otherwise. At this point he seems afraid(?) for lack of a better word to do so.
If I were GWB and they released false documents such as these, I would straighten the record out the first chance I had. Come on GWB, defend your reputation. He has had that chance and instead the White House is distributing them? If GWB doesn't denounce the documents as forgeries I will have no choice but to conclude they are real.
Why even acknolwedge something you know is crap? seems to me like he is doing a good job of ignoring them, or better yet maybe he knew they were fake and wanted CBS to get burned over this....personally I hope CBS and more specifically 60 minutes gets nailed on this one, now that would be fun.
Why the kids of Republicans got in? Must have been because of merit (Yale alumnus versus a Texas Aggie), cause their parents where in the wrong political party. Ben Barnes was Connally's political mentor, and later went into business with Connally. Lloyd Bentsen was the Dem Senator from Texas.Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
I would like a Bush supporter to explain how so many poltically connected people ended up in the "champagne unit"Because they were the children of prominent Texas DemocratsIts ranks included John Conally's son, Lloyd Bentson's son
HAHAHAHA.. your ass! As usual, you're wrong. 60 Minutes said only:Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
HAHAHAHA..that's rich...Barnes produced these documents, he works for Kerry, and is a life-long Dem. I suppose your gonna claim that Rove drugged Barnes and made him do it eh?I think Rove, MG Hodges and Robert Strong were all in on the incident.
MSNBC reports:But 60 Minutes has obtained a number of documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file.
Barnes' statements stand or fall on their own based on his own credibility and whatever documentation he may be able to provide. It is also possible the documents are fakes, but so far, NOBODY, exept you, claims the documents that are supposed to be from Jerry Killian's files came from Barnes.The White House said in February that it had released all records of Bush?s service, but one of Killian?s memos stated it was "for record" and another directing Bush to take the physical exam stated that it was "for 1st Lt. George W. Bush."
"I can?t explain why that wouldn?t be in his record, but they were found in Jerry Killian?s personal records," Bartlett told CBS, which first obtained the memos.
At 15, he was NOT old enough to serve in the military. At 18, he was under no obligation to do so unless he was drafted. That's the typical story for most males of that age in those years, and it has no relevance to anything, now.Like I said, he was nowhere to be seen..he was old enough to have served in Vietnam if he wanted to...
Putting the word, "AWOL" in quotes is appropriate because it actually has a more specific definition than simply missing or being absent from duty at a given time. Assuming the broader meaning, Bush was "AWOL" if he did not pariticpate in duty that he was obligated to perform....how on earth is Bush "AWOL" when he serves in the Guard for 6 years, Cheney is "chicken-hawk" because he got deferments from serve..but Edwards gets a total pass because he got a high draft lottery number..
Oh. I forgot, you claim to be a "heart surgeon." I guess that's possible, but so far, the only evidence you've shown of that is the way you cut the heart out of the truth and the English language.oh, i forgot, your a liberal....
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why doesn't GWB call the CBS documents forgeries? Instead the White House is distributing them?
Ask yourself that question? If GWB were to come out and call them forgeries, I would believe it until someone could prove otherwise. At this point he seems afraid(?) for lack of a better word to do so.
If I were GWB and they released false documents such as these, I would straighten the record out the first chance I had. Come on GWB, defend your reputation. He has had that chance and instead the White House is distributing them? If GWB doesn't denounce the documents as forgeries I will have no choice but to conclude they are real.
Why even acknolwedge something you know is crap? seems to me like he is doing a good job of ignoring them, or better yet maybe he knew they were fake and wanted CBS to get burned over this....personally I hope CBS and more specifically 60 minutes gets nailed on this one, now that would be fun.
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Answer his question... Why is the White House distributing the documents?
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Specuation on your part. GWB could settle this in 1 minute if he had a mind to. I honestly would believe him if he gave me his word publicly. Then I would require CBS to provide more proof