Bush where was he?

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Answer his question... Why is the White House distributing the documents?

This is indeed curious. I tend to think they wanted to err on the side of caution, and it looks better for them to be forthcoming and try to deflect any negative impact caused by the documents if they prove to be real, than to deny their authenticity, at the risk they might ultimately be confirmed as genuine.

There's also the possibility that (strap on your tinfoil hat!) these documents originated with Karl Rove (who I put nothing past at this point), and that their redistribution serves his interests. It seems to me that the more attention they get, the better for the Bush campaign, if they prove to be fake (as I believe they will).

I think there's a slim chance these are real documents, but frankly it seems wildly unlikely to me.

Why do you think they are fake, because of the superscript?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Specuation on your part. GWB could settle this in 1 minute if he had a mind to. I honestly would believe him if he gave me his word publicly. Then I would require CBS to provide more proof

I don't think he could, actually. Whether or not the documents are real (and I doubt they are), he would never have seen them at the time they were supposedly generated.

True, but HE knows what happened then on a first person basis. He lived it. He knows if he was directly ordered to take his physical and didn't do it. On that basis he should be able to at least call the documents false. Unless he does so, I will have to conclude that he is afraid of more documents coming to light on the matter.

 

[Red Dawn]

Whoever forged those documents is one dumb fscker.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Why do you think they are fake, because of the superscript?

That is only a small part of it, actually.

They don't really read like military memoranda, and vary in several minor ways from the typical style and formatting of a military memo (though that alone doesn't absolutely foreclose the possibility they're real). The 18 Aug memo includes curved apostrophes, something I don't believe ever existed on any typewriter, in the same memo in which a straight apostrophe appears. The experts seem to agree that no typewriter ever made generated a font exactly like Times New Roman, yet the memos are in TNR. They are also absolutely consistent in the shading of the characters - there are no lighter or darker characters, nor are any of the letters marred or partially missing as a result of damage to the type mechanism.

I tend to think that, other things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one, and frankly it seems far likelier to me that these were generated in Word than that they were typed on some exotic, expensive typewriter that may never have existed.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Answer his question... Why is the White House distributing the documents?

C-mon Dark, do I really have to think for you....again maybe the White house knows they are crap and wants to maximize exposure as they know that they will be found to be forgeries....will not only make Rabid Kerry supporters look untrustworthy but will also make CBS and 60 minutes look like a bunch of a-holes with little credibility, and I believe CBS' 60 minutes has been rather critical of the Bush admin in the past so who is to say this isn't motivated by "revenge"....

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Specuation on your part. GWB could settle this in 1 minute if he had a mind to. I honestly would believe him if he gave me his word publicly. Then I would require CBS to provide more proof

Please get real, "he can settle it in one minute" is BS, let me get my boots....you propose he goes out and says that they are crap and how many will believe him? I think this manuver is smart, let other agencies reveal them as crappola and you yourself pay little to no attention to them then there is no question in anyones mind and no one can confront you directly on the issue.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Answer his question... Why is the White House distributing the documents?

C-mon Dark, do I really have to think for you....again maybe the White house knows they are crap and wants to maximize exposure as they know that they will be found to be forgeries....will not only make Rabid Kerry supporters look untrustworthy but will also make CBS and 60 minutes look like a bunch of a-holes with little credibility, and I believe CBS' 60 minutes has been rather critical of the Bush admin in the past so who is to say this isn't motivated by "revenge"....

Ah that Karl Rove is one sly bastard!

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Whoever forged those documents is one dumb fscker.

This is the only reason I entertain a bit of suspicion that they originated on the right side of the aisle. I find it hard to believe that the Kerry campaign would craft a Machiavellian scheme to create these memos, then do so in such an easily-disproved way.

The other possibility I could realistically imagine is that some overzealous, anti-Bush E-4 at the National Personnel Records Center or some other records-storage location crafted these things and stuck them in Lt Col Killian's personnel record, hoping they'd be uncovered.

I don't believe CBS News created them, nor do I believe anyone attached to the Kerry campaign did. They carry too much risk for too little gain, and they're way too crappy.

 

[Red Dawn]

Hey Don, who is the Red Assed Monkey that wrote you the PM in your sig?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Why do you think they are fake, because of the superscript?

That is only a small part of it, actually.

They don't really read like military memoranda, and vary in several minor ways from the typical style and formatting of a military memo (though that alone doesn't absolutely foreclose the possibility they're real). The 18 Aug memo includes curved apostrophes, something I don't believe ever existed on any typewriter, in the same memo in which a straight apostrophe appears. The experts seem to agree that no typewriter ever made generated a font exactly like Times New Roman, yet the memos are in TNR. They are also absolutely consistent in the shading of the characters - there are no lighter or darker characters, nor are any of the letters marred or partially missing as a result of damage to the type mechanism.

I tend to think that, other things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one, and frankly it seems far likelier to me that these were generated in Word than that they were typed on some exotic, expensive typewriter that may never have existed.

During that time period I had the oportunity to visit 10 USDA offices located in 10 different counties in the state. I remember when the ball head typewriters came out and I'm at least 95% sure they were capapable of typing the "th" with the typewwriters they had. I only remember it becasue it was pretty "cool" at the time. I can't place the exact time frame with any accuracy though.

The curved apostraphe would also be an abnormality in a MS word font, would it not?

The ball head typewriter was the only thing on the machine with the type on it. It could'n run into another key and damage the type like a regular typewriter would. That would be impossible.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: DonVito
This is the only reason I entertain a bit of suspicion that they originated on the right side of the aisle. I find it hard to believe that the Kerry campaign would craft a Machiavellian scheme to create these memos, then do so in such an easily-disproved way.

The other possibility I could realistically imagine is that some overzealous, anti-Bush E-4 at the National Personnel Records Center or some other records-storage location crafted these things and stuck them in Lt Col Killian's personnel record, hoping they'd be uncovered.

I don't believe CBS News created them, nor do I believe anyone attached to the Kerry campaign did. They carry too much risk for too little gain, and they're way too crappy.

Isn't your first scenerio the oldest trick in the book though, seems a little obvious for me....or at least a little too obvious. Whether or not CBS created them is not the point, if they do turn out to be garbage then shame on CBS and specifically 60 minutes for not doing better research, they just dove right in as soon as they had something "newsworthy" and negative towards the POTUS.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Hey Don, who is the Red Assed Monkey that wrote you the PM in your sig?

He's too much of a coward to let me post his name, and I won't violate the trust of an asshole any more than I'll violate the trust of a person I respect. I do think, though, that he and the rest of us deserve to have his views aired for the world.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
During that time period I had the oportunity to visit 10 USDA offices located in 10 different counties in the state. I remember when the ball head typewriters came out and I'm at least 95% sure they were capapable of typing the "th" with the typewwriters they had. I only remember it becasue it was pretty "cool" at the time. I can't place the exact time frame with any accuracy though.

The curved apostraphe would also be an abnormality in a MS word font, would it not?

The ball head typewriter was the only thing on the machine with the type on it. It could'n run into another key and damage the type like a regular typewriter would. That would be impossible.

Are you an expert document analyst? and if that isn't enough how about the points brought up by the guys own son and others who served with him?....why focus on one point especially when you yourself are anything but an expert on document analysis?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

During that time period I had the oportunity to visit 10 USDA offices located in 10 different counties in the state. I remember when the ball head typewriters came out and I'm at least 95% sure they were capapable of typing the "th" with the typewwriters they had. I only remember it becasue it was pretty "cool" at the time. I can't place the exact time frame with any accuracy though.

The curved apostraphe would also be an abnormality in a MS word font, would it not?

The ball head typewriter was the only thing on the machine with the type on it. It could'n run into another key and damage the type like a regular typewriter would. That would be impossible.

Yeah, apparently the Selectric II, released in 1971, could do the superscript "th", though one wonders whether a field-grade officer would have been such an accomplished typist that he would have known this (and, for that matter, whether he would even have typed an MFR in those days - I don't really know).

Word automatically formats the curved apostrophe. Again, I don't believe any typewriter ever made had this feature.

I hear ya in regard to the type, but even Selectrics are not immune from inconsistencies in the darkness of characters (this is a ribbon issue), or having some letters with notches or scratches on the ball.

I'm certainly not any expert on typewriters, but the people who are seem to agree that these memos almost certainly weren't written on one.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Answer his question... Why is the White House distributing the documents?

C-mon Dark, do I really have to think for you....again maybe the White house knows they are crap and wants to maximize exposure as they know that they will be found to be forgeries....will not only make Rabid Kerry supporters look untrustworthy but will also make CBS and 60 minutes look like a bunch of a-holes with little credibility, and I believe CBS' 60 minutes has been rather critical of the Bush admin in the past so who is to say this isn't motivated by "revenge"....

Soooo, you condone the action of the Bush administration of knowingly spreading false documents? Question still remains: Where did the documents originate?

And as for you "thinking" for me.... :roll:

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Soooo, you condone the action of the Bush administration of knowingly spreading false documents? Question still remains: Where did the documents originate?

I think it's premature to say they "knowingly" spread false documents, since the memos originated with CBS News, not the White House, and on their face they seem harmful to the President.

If, hypothetically, it turned out these documents were false, and they originated with either the Bush or Kerry campaigns, I would consider it an incredibly dirty trick and an underhanded, dishonest ploy (and potentially a criminal act) by the party who created them. I doubt we'll ever know.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Soooo, you condone the action of the Bush administration of knowingly spreading false documents? Question still remains: Where did the documents originate?

And as for you "thinking" for me.... :roll:

Hmm now this is a good question....

Do I condone it? well if I were in Bush's position and had an opportunity to make 60 minutes and the supporters of my opposition look like a bunch of bafoons, especially after all of the flak he has taken over his guard service which he really didn't put much light on in the first place you can be sure I would do the exact same thing, I would love to see them get screwed over something like this but that is only because I am vengeful and never forget.

As far as do I condone the WH doing it..in this instance yes because it will make a point and it will hurt 60 minutes...if 60 minutes didn't run with it and they put out documents anyway to make rabid kerry fans seem ruthless then no I wouldn't condone it.

With regards to origination who really knows as of yet...I know I am not at any stage to even guess or speculate...I am sure there will be conspiracy theories abound even if definitive proof links them to someone outside of the current admin.

and no problem for doing the hard work for you.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: DonVito

I think it's premature to say they "knowingly" spread false documents, since the memos originated with CBS News, not the White House, and on their face they seem harmful to the President.

If, hypothetically, it turned out these documents were false, and they originated with either the Bush or Kerry campaigns, I would consider it an incredibly dirty trick and an underhanded, dishonest ploy (and potentially a criminal act) by the party who created them. I doubt we'll ever know.

Don,

He was talking about how the White house is currently passing out these documents, not that they were the originating source of them. It was my presumption that the WH was aware that these documents were crap when they surfaced and passed them out to maximize media exposure, this is of course after the CBS special, the logic behind this would be to ruin 60 minutes credibility when they were exposed as forgeries and also to taint the publics perception of Kerry supporters.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
During that time period I had the oportunity to visit 10 USDA offices located in 10 different counties in the state. I remember when the ball head typewriters came out and I'm at least 95% sure they were capapable of typing the "th" with the typewwriters they had. I only remember it becasue it was pretty "cool" at the time. I can't place the exact time frame with any accuracy though.

The curved apostraphe would also be an abnormality in a MS word font, would it not?

The ball head typewriter was the only thing on the machine with the type on it. It could'n run into another key and damage the type like a regular typewriter would. That would be impossible.

Are you an expert document analyst? and if that isn't enough how about the points brought up by the guys own son and others who served with him?....why focus on one point especially when you yourself are anything but an expert on document analysis?

I never said or implied I was an expert. I am merely giving my observations on what I remember from the time period in question.

I already addressed the issue of the guy's own son. How would he know anything? Read my post about it.

Until I hear otherwise from GWB, straight from the horse's mouth, i am forced to conclude the documents are real. As the old saying goes, silence is agreement.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: bozack

Don,

He was talking about how the White house is currently passing out these documents, not that they were the originating source of them. It was my presumption that the WH was aware that these documents were crap when they surfaced and passed them out to maximize media exposure, this is of course after the CBS special, the logic behind this would be to ruin 60 minutes credibility when they were exposed as forgeries and also to taint the publics perception of Kerry supporters.

Yeah, I understood what he was saying, I think.

That said, I'm a little suprised by the strength of what you're saying, in terms of supporting the White House redistributing these documents out of vindictiveness toward 60 Minutes and the Kerry campaign. My point was intended to defend the White House, actually, but I certainly would not defend the kind of redistribution you seem to be envisioning (and neither, I'm sure, would the White House, at least publically).

I see what you're describing as aiding and abetting the misleading of the American public for political gain, and I see that as far, far below the standard I expect of my elected officials.

 

[EcoLogic]

http://www.airshark.com/images/clippyhelp.gif

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: DonVito
This is the only reason I entertain a bit of suspicion that they originated on the right side of the aisle. I find it hard to believe that the Kerry campaign would craft a Machiavellian scheme to create these memos, then do so in such an easily-disproved way.

The other possibility I could realistically imagine is that some overzealous, anti-Bush E-4 at the National Personnel Records Center or some other records-storage location crafted these things and stuck them in Lt Col Killian's personnel record, hoping they'd be uncovered.

I don't believe CBS News created them, nor do I believe anyone attached to the Kerry campaign did. They carry too much risk for too little gain, and they're way too crappy.

Isn't your first scenerio the oldest trick in the book though, seems a little obvious for me....or at least a little too obvious. Whether or not CBS created them is not the point, if they do turn out to be garbage then shame on CBS and specifically 60 minutes for not doing better research, they just dove right in as soon as they had something "newsworthy" and negative towards the POTUS.

Since CBS had them examined by experts that said they were real, they would have the right to report it on the news. If they were "sucked in" by forgeries and that cn be proven then they should have to admit that the documents have been proven to be forgeries.

Since the source of these documents hasn't been revealed yet, perhaps that is the reason we haven't seen a denial from GWB? Or as you say, he may be just giving them enough rope to hang themselves. It is interesting, isn't.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: DonVito
Yeah, I understood what he was saying, I think.

That said, I'm a little suprised by the strength of what you're saying, in terms of supporting the White House redistributing these documents out of vindictiveness toward 60 Minutes and the Kerry campaign. My point was intended to defend the White House, actually, but I certainly would not defend the kind of redistribution you seem to be envisioning (and neither, I'm sure, would the White House, at least publically).

I see what you're describing as aiding and abetting the misleading of the American public for political gain, and I see that as far, far below the standard I expect of my elected officials.

I don't know if I "support it" per say but I can understand the logic behind it and if put in a similar situation I would do the same thing...Don if they come out and say they are crap or if Bush says they are crap will anyone really believe them? personally I think no, they are better off passing these around as info obtained from CBS and then let the independant analysts come to a conclusion that way there is no question (or little question) of executive interference...as it stands now people bleat about how bush used his families ties to muscle his way into the ANG some 30 years ago. I also don't know if this is for political gain (well sure it is as everything to make your opposition no matter how indirectly is) but moreso to distance yourself from the discovery process which will ultamately discredit the reporting source even more as they will be found fradulent by a group of their "peers".

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Since CBS had them examined by experts that said they were real, they would have the right to report it on the news. If they were "sucked in" by forgeries and that cn be proven then they should have to admit that the documents have been proven to be forgeries.

Since the source of these documents hasn't been revealed yet, perhaps that is the reason we haven't seen a denial from GWB? Or as you say, he may be just giving them enough rope to hang themselves. It is interesting, isn't.

As you question GWB for not denying the records I question CBS' so called "experts" and also how much time was given to said experts to examine the docs before CBS and 60 min ran with them...if CBS can prove they gave adequate time and had fully qualified "experts" examine them then yes they will save themselves from looking like complete asshats...however my guess is that CBS gave them a quick one over and then jumped on it which really was a silly thing to do however somewhat understandable given all of the questions surrounding his service or lack thereof.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Specuation on your part. GWB could settle this in 1 minute if he had a mind to. I honestly would believe him if he gave me his word publicly. Then I would require CBS to provide more proof

Please get real, "he can settle it in one minute" is BS, let me get my boots....you propose he goes out and says that they are crap and how many will believe him? I think this manuver is smart, let other agencies reveal them as crappola and you yourself pay little to no attention to them then there is no question in anyones mind and no one can confront you directly on the issue.

Beleive what you will. If GWB wou;d directly affress this and call the documents false I would believe him. He wouldn't have to call them forgeries, just call them false. He should know if they were false or not, shouldn't he?

I also think that the majority of the US citizens/voters would believe him. Sure, there are some who aren't going to accept any expalnation, they want to beleive his is guilty. Nothing is going to change their mind.

The US citizens believed GWB when he said that Iraq had WMD's, I know I did. When the POTUS speaks, people listen. I would have no choice but to take GWB at his word until someone could prove otherwise and I think that is the way most people would react.

You and I and everyone else for that matter can argue until we are blue in the face and we won't change each others mind. If GWB comes out and say the documents are false, then as far as I am concerned that is fact until proven otherwise. Anything disscusion after that would be nothing more then conjucture. His failure to respond to suich a direct attack on his version of this period in his life troubles me.