Bush where was he?

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: MrPALCO
Since you were in the Guard Harvey, shouldn't we apply the same standard to you that you apply to President Bush?

Aren't you a draft dodging slacker who has no credibility?

LOL, Was his commitment during the Vietnam war? Did he skip drills for an extended period of time?

Did he have a million dollars spent on him to fly jets, only to not bother flying jets, let alone not showing up? It's funny how GWB could attend drills when the Vietnam war was in full swing, but when it was winding down and they were bringing the troops home then he didn't take his comitment seriosly and quit going. LOL, you just refuse to get it don't you.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Crimson
And Kerry's Vietnam record is relevant because he pulled up to the convention in a swiftboat and said 'reporting for duty'.. Yeah, I guess he did, before he at best embellished some wounds to get out early.. Then proceeded to tells lies about his actions in Vietnam for the next 30 years.. I think THAT raises strong doubts about his integrity and credibility as well.

There is no comparison. The Not So Swift boat liars and their lies have been thoroughly discredited by reputable, credible third parties. Regardless of who you think made Kerry's service record an issue, it's an honorable record of which Kerry can and does stand proud. Even Bushwhacko explicitly conceded that, despite his cowardly failure to condemn the ads.

Meanwhile, nobody in the entire Republican campaign machine, the government or the military can produce any records to show Bushwhacko was on duty when he was claimed he personally stated was flying.

Summary:

Kerry was there, and the records confirm it.

Bush says he was there, but NO records confirm it. :frown:

Crimson -- You have no point, and the records confirm it.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: MrPALCO
Since you were in the Guard Harvey, shouldn't we apply the same standard to you that you apply to President Bush?

Aren't you a draft dodging slacker who has no credibility?

PALTROLL -- I was in the U.S. Army Reserve, not the National Guard. I joined between dropping out of college and going back to finish, and I freely acknowledge I did so because didn't want to be drafted for two years of active duty. I also wanted a better choice of MOS (job) so I joined a signal corps unit and was trained as a Field Radio Repair Specialist.

At the time, military service options were three years of enlisted sevice with no active Reseve requirement, two years of draft service with one year of active Reserve required, or six years of active Reserve duty that included six months of active duty.

I entered active duty in July, 1961 and served six months on active duty for basic and specialty training at Fort Ord, Ca. I attended 5 1/2 years of required meetings, including five summer camps. About three years into my service, I changed from my original MOS to being a company cook. It was one of the few jobs where everything was real. On weekends we prepared a meal for around 50 - 75 people, and at summer camp, our battalion cooks (from several companies) had to prepare three real meals a day for 300 - 400 people, some of which involved serving meals in the field for war games. I received an honorable discharge in 1967.

Congress passed the Tonkin Gulf Resolution on August 7, 1964. By the time they were calling up Reserve units in my area, my time was up. As a matter of personal luck, I was not placed in harm's way, but if that had not been the case, I could just as easily have been in Viet Nam.

Did I "dodge" the draft? Yep. I sidestepped into an alternative service plan that put me just as much at risk of going to Vietnam as anyone else at the time, and for a longer time (six years vs. three) of possible active duty, but with a little more control over what I would be doing if I went. Call it whatever you want.

Does that make me a slacker? My honorable discharge says otherwise, and I didn't even duck any required meetings or summer camps like the current Commando in Chief.

Does that call my credibility into question? That's for others to decide, but since you have taken it upon yourself to challenge mine, I'll ask you what, if anything, have you ever done for your country? :Q

 

[robbase29a]

Did you guys just happen to miss the RNC? Several times, key-note speakers honored Kerry for serving in Vietnam. Not only that... delegates and the rest of the audience applauded!.. I thank Kerry for his service.

Bush on the other hand, served also... for about six years! If he was called to serve overseas, I'm sure he would have. The thing about this country is that you can choose at what capacitiy you want to serve. Bush chose the National Guard. Good... I also applaud him for his honorable service. Maybe he did not serve "as much" as Kerry, but that is immaterial. He served.

The problem that people (including me) have with Kerry is what he did when he got back from Vietnam, he admitted to committing war crimes, renounced his medals (or was it his ribbons?), and was a significant contributor to those people who spoke out against the war which hindered our progress (and aided the enemy) in the war. But that's ok... it's his choice to do so. I still thank him for his service. Now, Kerry is saying that because he defended this country as a young man, he is qualified to lead it as the Commander in Chief. He is also saying that he has all of these awards that he supposedly threw out years ago. I do not approve of Kerry's double-talk. He is wrong to focus on his service. And I will not be voting for him this fall. Peace.

~®~

 

[Shuxclams]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Bush now says he's released all his records...if that's true, then has anyone seen:<BR><BR> * Any pages from Bush's flight log<BR> * Records from the Flight Inquiry Board convened after Bush was suspended as a pilot<BR> * Any evidence of Bush's reclassification into another AFSC after suspension as a pilot<BR> * Any photos of George Bush in a military uniform after 1972<BR> * Anything at all from any Alabama unit with Bush's name on it<BR> * Any copies of form 44a from the Alabama National Guard certifying attendance<BR> * Air Force Form 142 (Aviation Service Audit Worksheet)<BR> * The contents of his UIF (Unfavorable Information File w/results from grounding)<BR> * Anything proving service (not just receipt of pay) by Bush between May 1972 and May 1973?

<BR><BR>http://www.awolbush.com/<BR><BR>I don't really care about this, but we can make a sticky in protest if we get mutiple threads on the subject according to the mods.<BR><BR>BTW I only object to making the Swiftboat thread a sticky because it somehow lends legitimacy to the subject. If it isn't a sticky, it will fall off the front page where is belongs.

Most of all has anyone seen or heard from anyone that "served" with our oh so patriotic leader and chief?










SHUX

 

[conjur]

Saturday, August 28, 2004
by Greg Palast

In 1968, former Congressman George Herbert Walker Bush of Texas, fresh from voting to send other men?s sons to Vietnam, enlisted his own son in a very special affirmative action program, the ?champagne? unit of the Texas Air National Guard. There, Top Gun fighter pilot George Dubya was assigned the dangerous job of protecting Houston from Vietcong air attack.

This week, former Lt. Governor Ben Barnes of Texas 'fessed up to pulling the strings to keep Little George out of the jungle. "I got a young man named George W. Bush into the Texas Air Guard - and I'm ashamed."


THE PAY-OFF

That?s far from the end of the story. In 1994, George W. Bush was elected governor of Texas by a whisker. By that time, Barnes had left office to become a big time corporate lobbyist. To an influence peddler like Barnes, having damning information on a sitting governor is worth its weight in gold ? or, more precisely, there?s a value in keeping the info secret.

Barnes appears to have made lucrative use of his knowledge of our President?s slithering out of the draft as a lever to protect a multi-billion dollar contract for a client. That's the information in a confidential letter buried deep in the files of the US Justice Department that fell into my hands at BBC television.

Here's what happened. Just after Bush's election, Barnes' client GTech Corp., due to allegations of corruption, was about to lose its license to print money: its contract to run the Texas state lottery. Barnes, says the Justice Department document, made a call to the newly elected governor's office and saved GTech's state contract.

The letter said, "Governor Bush ... made a deal with Ben Barnes not to rebid [the GTech lottery contract] because Barnes could confirm that Bush had lied during the '94 campaign."

In that close race, Bush denied the fix was in to keep him out of 'Nam, and the US media stopped asking questions. What did the victorious Governor Bush's office do for Barnes? According to the tipster, "Barnes agreed never to confirm the story [of the draft dodging] and the governor talked to the chair of the lottery two days later and she then agreed to support letting GTech keep the contract without a bid."

And so it came to pass that the governor's commission reversed itself and gave GTech the billion dollar deal without a bid.

The happy client paid Barnes, the keeper of Governor Bush?s secret, a fee of over $23 million. Barnes, not surprisingly, denies that Bush took care of his client in return for Barnes? silence. However, confronted with the evidence, the former Lt. Governor now admits to helping the young George stay out of Vietnam.

Take a look at the letter yourself - with information we confirmed with other sources - at http://www.gregpalast.com/ulf/...draftdodgeblanked.jpg.

Frankly, I don?t care if President Bush cowered and ran from Vietnam. I sure as hell didn?t volunteer ? but then, my daddy didn?t send someone else in my place. And I don?t march around aircraft carriers with parachute clips around my gonads talking about war and sacrifice.

More important, I haven't made any pay-offs to silence those who could change my image from war hero to war zero.


"Time Warner Won't Let Us Air This"

By the way: I first reported this story in 1999, including the evidence of payback, in The Observer of London. US media closed its eyes. Then I put the story on British television last year in the one-hour report, "Bush Family Fortunes." American networks turned down BBC's offer to run it in the USA. "Wonderful film," one executive told me, "but Time Warner is not going to let us put this on the air." However, US networks will take cash for advertisements calling Kerry a Vietnam coward.

The good news is, until Patriot Act 3 kicks in, they can't stop us selling the film to you directly. The updated version of "Bush Family Fortunes," with the full story you still can't see on your boob tube, will be released next month in DVD. See a preview at http://www.gregpalast.com/bff-dvd.htm

See a segment from the film regarding the Draft Dodge http://www.gregpalast.com/images/TrailerClips.mov

For more on our president?s war years and the $23 million payment, read this excerpt from the New York Times bestseller, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. http://www.gregpalast.com/deta...fm?artid=233&amp;row=1.

Still Unreported: The Pay-off in Bush Air Guard Fix
http://www.gregpalast.com/printerfriendly.cfm?artid=365

 

[conjur]

Ben Barnes to break silence on "60 Minutes"
http://www.salon.com/news/feat...es60minutes/index.html

The Republican campaign gets ready for shock waves, as the former Texas official who says he pulled strings to get George W. Bush into the Air National Guard finally goes public.

George W. Bush's missing year
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/02/allison/

The widow of a Bush family confidant says her husband gave the future president an Alabama Senate campaign job as a favor to his worried father. Did they see him do any National Guard service? "Good lord, no."

 

[conjur]

Hmm...the Bush fans sure got awfully quiet the last few days...hmmm....



Must be waiting on the next talking point memo email to offer some rebuttals.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...the Bush fans sure got awfully quiet the last few days...hmmm....



Must be waiting on the next talking point memo email to offer some rebuttals.

Just ignoring the BS - just like we learned to do with dave Carry on...

CsG

 

[1EZduzit]

They've tired about talking about their AWOL leader. No points to be made here, time to MoveON.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...the Bush fans sure got awfully quiet the last few days...hmmm....

Must be waiting on the next talking point memo email to offer some rebuttals.

Just ignoring the BS - just like we learned to do with dave Carry on...

CsG

9-5-2004 Five Files Missing From Bush O... National Guard Record

WASHINGTON - Documents that should have been written to explain gaps in President Bush's Texas Air National Guard service are missing from the military records released about his service in 1972 and 1973, according to regulations and outside experts.

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.

No such records have been made public and the government told The Associated Press in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that it has released all records it can find.

Outside experts suggest that National Guard commanders may not have produced documentation required by their own regulations.

The five kinds of missing files are:

_A report from the Texas Air National Guard to Bush's local draft board certifying that Bush remained in good standing. The government has released copies of those DD Form 44 documents for Bush for 1971 and earlier years but not for 1972 or 1973. Records from Bush's draft board in Houston do not show his draft status changed after he joined the guard in 1968. The AP obtained the draft board records Aug. 27 under the Freedom of Information Act.

_Records of a required investigation into why Bush lost flight status. When Bush skipped his 1972 physical, regulations required his Texas commanders to "direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination," according to the Air Force manual at the time. An investigative report was supposed to be forwarded "with the command recommendation" to Air Force officials "for final determination."

_A written acknowledgment from Bush that he had received the orders grounding him. His Texas commanders were ordered to have Bush sign such a document; but none has been released.

_Reports of formal counseling sessions Bush was required to have after missing more than three training sessions. Bush missed at least five months' worth of National Guard training in 1972. No documents have surfaced indicating Bush was counseled or had written authorization to skip that training or make it up later. Commanders did have broad discretion to allow guardsmen to make up for missed training sessions, said Weaver and Lawrence Korb, Pentagon (news - web sites) personnel chief during the Reagan administration from 1981 to 1985.

_A signed statement from Bush acknowledging he could be called to active duty if he did not promptly transfer to another guard unit after leaving Texas. The statement was required as part of a Vietnam-era crackdown on no-show guardsmen. Bush was approved in September 1972 to train with the Alabama unit, more than four months after he left Texas.

 

[Darkhawk28]

CBS news has reported on the missing documents tonight. Not sure how mainstream this story has gotten yet, but thought it was worthy of mention.

 

[arsbanned]

Is MSNBC mainstream enough?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5922174/

 

[maluckey]

The so-called "Outside Experts" are grasping at straws, and the masses take this as gospel....typical.

There is a simple answer to most of these questions, but I know that everyone wants a conspiracy.

No investigation or report would be necessary for Bush's non-flight status. A required physical was missed. That automatically puts you nto no-flight status until the Flight Surgeon signs off on your next one. The only time further action, or documentation would have been required is if he FAILED his flight physical. He didn't, so no paperwork, except by the Flight Surgeon in Bush's exam records for that day.

Also, you don't need written authorization to miss drill. I have missed drill, while I was in the Reserves. I called in and said that I couldn't amke it do to no child care for my kids. No paperwork at all. If you looked into my record, it would show that I missed drill for that month, and there would be no documentation. The only time there are documents is if you don't call-in beforehand. Then you can get a counseling statement, or in worst-case scenarios, a Summarized Article-15. In short, there are records for non-Authorized missed Drills, but not for the Authorized.

Bush could not have a letter of Good Standing in his file after missing the flight physical, until he got re-instated to flight status. If he had no flight status, or was assigned to a unit that did not fly, then he was not able to be in Good Standing. Hard to be in Good Standing if there are no planes in you new unit, and even if there were, without flight status, you can't fly them.

There may not have been a "Grounding" document per-se. If they release Bush's Medical records, it will likely indicate "non-flight status" on the exam record for the missed physical.

In short, the "experts" failed to see how the Reserves and Guard works. I'd wager that these "Experts" were not ever in the Reserves or Guard. They certainly were not pilots.

The records I would like to see are those of his last OER while in the Guard, and who signed it. Nobody has discussed that, and it would be interesting to see what it says.

 

[Infohawk]

What did Bush do with those documents? What is he trying to hide?

 

[Gaard]

I won't presume to know more then maluckey about necessary paperwork in the military, but I was just wondering if he noticed these three words in the article..."at the time".

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: conjur
Ben Barnes to break silence on "60 Minutes"

Looks like the Barnes interview was last week.

60 Minutes -- August 28, 2004

 

[MrPALCO]

Harvey

You were not in the Guard, I stand corrected.

Many have allowed the Guard to be characterized as a bunch of ?rich boy? slackers with Daddy pulling all the strings. That just ain?t so.

Concerning my service to this Nation, I have fought and won more battles that your little spirit can ever imagine or ever accept. My greatest single victory and the one with the most affect on the course of this Nation?

Getting on my face before God and asking him to heal this Land.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: MrPALCO

Many have allowed the Guard to be characterized as a bunch of ?rich boy? slackers with Daddy pulling all the strings. That just ain?t so.

I don't think anybody is trying to characterize the entire Guard as "rich boys". They're saying that there are some who did that. I believe with all my heart that GWB was one of those that did. So were the rest of them in the champange unit.

BTW, calling someone you know nothing about a "draft dodging slacker" isn't exactly the best way to help heal this nation IMO.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: MrPALCO
Harvey

You were not in the Guard, I stand corrected.

PALTROLL -- You called me "a draft dodging slacker who has no credibility." You don't stand anywhere near sufficiently corrected, you lying POS! :|

Concerning my service to this Nation, I have fought and won more battles that your little spirit can ever imagine or ever accept.

I refuted your name calling attack on me with the details of my service, including dates, and the best you have to show is empty words and more name calling? Who are you to talk to anyone about having a "little sprit?" :frown: You have yet to show anything to back up your BS. AFIC, until you do, as they say in Texas, you're all hat and no horse.

Getting on my face before God and asking him to heal this Land.

That's a difficult position to assume when your head's so far up your ass. :laugh:

You're always preaching religion at us so I've asked you, before, and I'll ask you again...

Whatever happened to, "Thou shalt not bear false witness?" :Q

What's the matter, PALTROLL? Cat got your mouse? :roll:

 

[maluckey]

Gaard,

I caught the words "at the time"...I also caught the many "facts" that the "experts" try to lead us to believe are so.

Commanders will have a paper trail if they have been given official orders to do something. If they do not have it, then the time honored Army tradition of "If it ain't in writing, it don't mean Sh*t" applies. Can these so-called experts can show where an investigation would be required by Army Regs? I doubt it. Investigations are done for supposed wrongdoing, not missed physicals, no matter who you are.

Let's face it. Unless Bush broke a regulation and was charged for it, there will be no paper trails to follow for much of anything.

The Army still can't find my permanet records, or VA medical disability files. That's good for me, because it put me back on duty. They also can't seem to find where I was ever married, though my wife was on my travel orders on numerous occasions, not only to FRAG, but my DEROS, and later my ETS orders. Is this a conspiracy? More like typical paperwork shuffle. When I retire, I just hope all my paperwork has caught up. Besides, if the Army wanted me to have a wife, they would have issued me one....

Most soldiers, (especially in combat specialties) will have had similar experiences with undocumented orders coming back to bite them, OER/NCOERs that "dissappear", travel orders that have forgotten a family member, or the famous arrival at the unit specified in travel orders, but they have no job for you.

It's all part of he Army...just ask John Forbes Kerry about "lost" paperwork, and signatures, and/or actions that don't jibe with recalled testimony.

Unless it's in writing, it ain't worth Shi**......and even then, it's not always what it seems.

 

[robbase29a]

This is very true... the military misplaces files all of the time. I also served in the reserves and worked along side my unit administrator for quite a long time, so i should know. Bush has nothing to hide... he released all of his files, which is a lot more than what kerry has done. Conspiracy theories just don't hold any water.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

"Records from the Flight Inquiry Board convened after Bush was suspended as a pilot"

This">http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/grounded.gif</a> is the document that I believe this is referring to.

What is relevant is that Bush earlier that year (I believe about May '72) he was placed on NON-FLYING STATUS. That was because he transfered to Alabama. There are more cockpits than pliots, so they just stuffed him at a desk job. Thus being placed on non-flying status. Really, it's simple, you don't get your flight physical, you lose flight status....if you're not on flight status anyway, big friggin' deal.

Second of those who are in the Air National Guard know that a physical has to be done by a Flight Surgeon. A regular doctor won't do. Then there is the added problem of being in the reserves. Flight Surgeon aren't always available. Maybe once a month to give physicals. Why go though all the trouble if your on non-flight status?

What the problem is that the people making these accusations have no clue how the military works.

Edit: Bush's request for transfer to Alabama

 

[1EZduzit]

Can I sign up for the Guards, get a million dollars worth of taxpayer funds invested in my training and then just not take a physical and get a desk job? A desk job that I don't even have to show up for, LOL!!

Is that the way the military works?? Then we better slash the hell out of their budget because that is nothing more then a total waset of money.

That was not what he agreed to do when he signed up, now is it:

http://www.kings.edu/twsawyer/awol/docs/doc24.gif

Bush is nothing but a phoney "war president". If he any integrity at all he would be ashamed of his record!!

Anybody smart enough to come in out of the rain can figure this one out

 

[arsbanned]

"The Army still can't find my permanet records, or VA medical disability files."
Did you start an immoral war, attack the wrong country and are you currently running for Pres? If not, thanks for playing. Here's your consolation prize. *plop*