It's interesting that we're focusing on the bush record now. The only reason we talk about Kerry's stuff of 34 years ago is because he claims it's what qualifies him to be CIC. Bush has made no such claims.
Originally posted by: Gravity
It's interesting that we're focusing on the bush record now. The only reason we talk about Kerry's stuff of 34 years ago is because he claims it's what qualifies him to be CIC. Bush has made no such claims.
Originally posted by: Gravity
It's interesting that we're focusing on the bush record now. The only reason we talk about Kerry's stuff of 34 years ago is because he claims it's what qualifies him to be CIC. Bush has made no such claims.
Originally posted by: charrison
Given extra time? What are you talking about? IF anything he left the guard 6 months early.Originally posted by: conjur
Why was Bush given extra time to complete his required training? Why wasn't he brought up on AWOL charges or charges of desertion? What strings did he manage to pull?Originally posted by: charrison
Do you refute that bush completed all required training and got an honorable discharge?Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
charrison care to refute these claims?
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671
There really is nothing to see here.
And once again the guard is flexible with the schedules of those in the guard.
Then something happened. From May 1, 1972 until April 30, 1973 -- a period of twelve months -- there are no days shown, though Bush should have logged at least thirty-six days service (a weekend per month in addition to two weeks at camp).
In fact, during the final four months of this period, December 1972 through May 29, 1973, neither Bush nor his aides have ever tried to claim attendance at any guard activities. So, incredibly, for a period of one year beginning May 1, 1972, there is just one day, November 29th, on which Bush claims to have performed duty for the Air National Guard. There are no dates of service for 1973 mentioned in Bush's "Chronological Service Listing."
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Gravity
It's interesting that we're focusing on the bush record now. The only reason we talk about Kerry's stuff of 34 years ago is because he claims it's what qualifies him to be CIC. Bush has made no such claims.
Odd that only the AP is only rabidly going after bush documents, but completely ignoring Kerry.
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: charrison
Given extra time? What are you talking about? IF anything he left the guard 6 months early.Originally posted by: conjur
Why was Bush given extra time to complete his required training? Why wasn't he brought up on AWOL charges or charges of desertion? What strings did he manage to pull?Originally posted by: charrison
Do you refute that bush completed all required training and got an honorable discharge?Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
charrison care to refute these claims?
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671
There really is nothing to see here.
And once again the guard is flexible with the schedules of those in the guard.
<ahem>
Then something happened. From May 1, 1972 until April 30, 1973 -- a period of twelve months -- there are no days shown, though Bush should have logged at least thirty-six days service (a weekend per month in addition to two weeks at camp).
In fact, during the final four months of this period, December 1972 through May 29, 1973, neither Bush nor his aides have ever tried to claim attendance at any guard activities. So, incredibly, for a period of one year beginning May 1, 1972, there is just one day, November 29th, on which Bush claims to have performed duty for the Air National Guard. There are no dates of service for 1973 mentioned in Bush's "Chronological Service Listing."
Originally posted by: conjur
By virtue of having been given an extra six months after that six-month gap.
Explain that.
In this official summary of Bush's military service, I found something that was not mentioned in Bush's records from the National Guard Bureau in Arlington, Virginia. When Bush enlisted his commitment ran until May 26, 1974. This was the separation date shown on all documents as late as October 1973, when Bush was transferred to the inactive reserves at Denver, Colorado. But the date of final separation shown on the official summary from Denver, is November 21, 1974. The ARPC had tacked an extra six months on to Bush's commitment.
Which may be true, but it still doesn't explain why there are no records to confirm his public statement that he was flying.Originally posted by: charrison
His records still show he completed all required training and received an honorable discharge.
Originally posted by: conjur
In this official summary of Bush's military service, I found something that was not mentioned in Bush's records from the National Guard Bureau in Arlington, Virginia. When Bush enlisted his commitment ran until May 26, 1974. This was the separation date shown on all documents as late as October 1973, when Bush was transferred to the inactive reserves at Denver, Colorado. But the date of final separation shown on the official summary from Denver, is November 21, 1974. The ARPC had tacked an extra six months on to Bush's commitment.
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671
linkage
And this is the reference document. As far as i can tell, there is no 74 date on it.
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671
linkage
And this is the reference document. As far as i can tell, there is no 74 date on it.
Where's the rest of the cropped-out image?
Originally posted by: conjur
Shows duty obligation until May 1974:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc5.gif
Originally posted by: conjur
Discharge papers show Bush to be about 8 months shy of his obligation:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/ANG22.gif
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: conjur
Discharge papers show Bush to be about 8 months shy of his obligation:
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/ANG22.gif
Yes he filed for early discharge and that was approved. Much like Kerry did
Salon.com (free day pass or reg req)
"I'm very ashamed"
The former Texas official who got George Bush into the National Guard apologizes for making sure that young men with important "family names" did not have to fight in Vietnam.
Aug. 27, 2004 | Another bombshell in the battle over Vietnam service that has been raging in the 2004 presidential race exploded on the Web Friday. In a video originally posted on the Web by a pro-Kerry organization in Austin, Texas, Ben Barnes, a former lieutenant governor of Texas, apologized for his role in getting a young George W. Bush into the Texas Air National Guard while young men who were not from prominent or wealthy families "died in Vietnam."
"Let's talk a minute about John Kerry and George Bush, and I know them both," said Barnes in the video, which was filmed at a gathering of about 200 Kerry supporters in Austin on May 27. "I got a young man named George W. Bush into the Texas National Guard when I was lieutenant governor, and I'm not necessarily proud of that. But I did it. I got a lot of other people in the National Guard because I thought that was what people should do when you're in office, and you help a lot of rich people."
"And I walked to the Vietnam Memorial the other day," Barnes continued, "and I looked at the names of the people that died in Vietnam, and I became more ashamed of myself than I have ever been, because it was the worst thing I ever did, was help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get into the National Guard. And I'm very sorry about that, and I'm very ashamed, and I apologize to you as voters of Texas."
Barnes then condemned the Republican attacks on John Kerry's war service: "And I tell you that for the Republicans to jump on John Kerry and say that he is not a patriot after he went to Vietnam and was shot at and fought for our freedom and came back here and protested against the war, he's a flip-flopper, let me tell you: John Kerry is a 100 times better patriot than George Bush or Dick Cheney."
The video of Barnes was filmed by Todd Phelan and Mike Nicholson, organizers of a political group called Austin4Kerry. Phelan is currently an organizer for the Travis County Democrats. The video first appeared on the Austin4Kerry Web site on June 25, but was widely overlooked until Friday. The video also includes a separate interview conducted by the same two filmmakers in which Barnes speaks with admiration about Kerry's valor.
Phelan and Nicholson recall they were surprised by the candor of Barnes' remarks while they were filming him at the rally. "To be honest with you, my eyes lit up instantaneously," Phelan told Salon. "I looked at Mike, he looked at me, and it was like 'Did he just say that?'" But at the time, said Phelan, they did not think the video would create a stir. He suggested that the video suddenly became a Web phenomenon because of the heated swift boat controversy that has been fanned by supporters of Bush.
Barnes' story about Bush and the Air National Guard first broke in 1999 as the then Texas governor was mounting his first campaign for the presidency. Bush insisted at the time that neither he nor his father sought Barnes' assistance. "I can tell you what happened," said Bush. "Nothing happened. My Guard unit was looking for pilots and I flew for the Guard. I'm proud of my service and any allegation that my dad asked for special favors is simply not true ... I didn't ask anybody to help get me to the Guard either."
Barnes said at the time that it was a wealthy Bush family friend, a Houston oilman named Sidney Adger, who came to him with the request to help the younger Bush.
WTF good id it to be rich and have friends in high places if you can't manipulate them into doing you favors?Originally posted by: DealMonkey
This seemed newsworthy to me.
Salon.com (free day pass or reg req)
"I'm very ashamed"
The former Texas official who got George Bush into the National Guard apologizes for making sure that young men with important "family names" did not have to fight in Vietnam.
Aug. 27, 2004 | Another bombshell in the battle over Vietnam service that has been raging in the 2004 presidential race exploded on the Web Friday. In a video originally posted on the Web by a pro-Kerry organization in Austin, Texas, Ben Barnes, a former lieutenant governor of Texas, apologized for his role in getting a young George W. Bush into the Texas Air National Guard while young men who were not from prominent or wealthy families "died in Vietnam."
"Let's talk a minute about John Kerry and George Bush, and I know them both," said Barnes in the video, which was filmed at a gathering of about 200 Kerry supporters in Austin on May 27. "I got a young man named George W. Bush into the Texas National Guard when I was lieutenant governor, and I'm not necessarily proud of that. But I did it. I got a lot of other people in the National Guard because I thought that was what people should do when you're in office, and you help a lot of rich people."
"And I walked to the Vietnam Memorial the other day," Barnes continued, "and I looked at the names of the people that died in Vietnam, and I became more ashamed of myself than I have ever been, because it was the worst thing I ever did, was help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get into the National Guard. And I'm very sorry about that, and I'm very ashamed, and I apologize to you as voters of Texas."
Barnes then condemned the Republican attacks on John Kerry's war service: "And I tell you that for the Republicans to jump on John Kerry and say that he is not a patriot after he went to Vietnam and was shot at and fought for our freedom and came back here and protested against the war, he's a flip-flopper, let me tell you: John Kerry is a 100 times better patriot than George Bush or Dick Cheney."
The video of Barnes was filmed by Todd Phelan and Mike Nicholson, organizers of a political group called Austin4Kerry. Phelan is currently an organizer for the Travis County Democrats. The video first appeared on the Austin4Kerry Web site on June 25, but was widely overlooked until Friday. The video also includes a separate interview conducted by the same two filmmakers in which Barnes speaks with admiration about Kerry's valor.
Phelan and Nicholson recall they were surprised by the candor of Barnes' remarks while they were filming him at the rally. "To be honest with you, my eyes lit up instantaneously," Phelan told Salon. "I looked at Mike, he looked at me, and it was like 'Did he just say that?'" But at the time, said Phelan, they did not think the video would create a stir. He suggested that the video suddenly became a Web phenomenon because of the heated swift boat controversy that has been fanned by supporters of Bush.
Barnes' story about Bush and the Air National Guard first broke in 1999 as the then Texas governor was mounting his first campaign for the presidency. Bush insisted at the time that neither he nor his father sought Barnes' assistance. "I can tell you what happened," said Bush. "Nothing happened. My Guard unit was looking for pilots and I flew for the Guard. I'm proud of my service and any allegation that my dad asked for special favors is simply not true ... I didn't ask anybody to help get me to the Guard either."
Barnes said at the time that it was a wealthy Bush family friend, a Houston oilman named Sidney Adger, who came to him with the request to help the younger Bush.