Bush where was he?

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CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Ben Barnes claims he used his office of Lt. Governor to "pull strings" to get Bush in the TANG. Problem is Bush enlisted on May 27, 1968 and Barnes was not elected as Lt. Governor until the fall of 1968 and was sworn in January 1969. I'd like to know why he thought Bush needed strings pulled 8 months after he was already in.

The widow of a Bush family confidant says her husband gave the future president an Alabama Senate campaign job as a favor to his worried father. Did they see him do any National Guard service? "Good lord, no."

Give me a break. Were they even in a position to confirm he did/didn't go? And to remember that after 30 years. In a unit of 800 people, it?s not at all surprising that no one would remember a transferree from Texas who happened to be the son of a backbench Congressman with little national reputation.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Ben Barnes claims he used his office of Lt. Governor to "pull strings" to get Bush in the TANG. Problem is Bus enlisted on May 27, 1968 and Barnes was not elected as Lt. Governor until the fall of 1968 and was sworn in January 1969. I'd like to know why he thought Bush needed strings pulled 8 months after he was already in.
<sigh>

Barnes was a political protege of then-Governor Connally and Barnes had political clout.

The widow of a Bush family confidant says her husband gave the future president an Alabama Senate campaign job as a favor to his worried father. Did they see him do any National Guard service? "Good lord, no."

Give me a break. Were they even in a position to confirm he did/didn't go? And to remember that after 30 years. In a unit of 800 people, it?s not at all surprising that no one would remember a transferree from Texas who happened to be the son of a backbench Congressman with little national reputation.
Wow...talk about a desperate apologist stance.

:laugh:
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Ben Barnes claims he used his office of Lt. Governor to "pull strings" to get Bush in the TANG. Problem is Bus enlisted on May 27, 1968 and Barnes was not elected as Lt. Governor until the fall of 1968 and was sworn in January 1969. I'd like to know why he thought Bush needed strings pulled 8 months after he was already in.
<sigh>

Barnes was a political protege of then-Governor Connally and Barnes had political clout.

The widow of a Bush family confidant says her husband gave the future president an Alabama Senate campaign job as a favor to his worried father. Did they see him do any National Guard service? "Good lord, no."

Give me a break. Were they even in a position to confirm he did/didn't go? And to remember that after 30 years. In a unit of 800 people, it?s not at all surprising that no one would remember a transferree from Texas who happened to be the son of a backbench Congressman with little national reputation.
Wow...talk about a desperate apologist stance.

:laugh:

"I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard when I was lieutenant governor of Texas, and I'm not necessarily proud of that, but I did it" -- Ben Barnes

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said of Barnes' comments: "It is not surprising coming from a longtime partisan Democrat. The allegation was discredited by the commanding officer. This was fully covered and addressed five years ago. It is nothing new."

apologist? You have yet prove your claims. I have shown the payroll records. How about it?

Now there were people who went to the Guard to avoid the draft. However, there was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard would be spending the next two years on active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was even deemed combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which you were going back was an F-100, you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding service? Yeah, tell that to those guys.

The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such pilots were risking their lives or even dying while Bush was in Texas. The Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: conjur

Ben Barnes to break silence on "60 Minutes"
http://www.salon.com/news/feat...es60minutes/index.html

Debunked

Because you say so? :roll:
Ah yes, the rolling eyes emoticon again. When unable to present an effective counter-argument, this emoticon, in conjunction with some desperately conceived, illogical statement, supposedly represents a response to the rest of us who can actually think while standing on our feet.

Until you can prove otherwise, Barnes' allegations are suspect.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: conjur

Ben Barnes to break silence on "60 Minutes"
http://www.salon.com/news/feat...es60minutes/index.html

Debunked

Because you say so? :roll:
Ah yes, the rolling eyes emoticon again. When unable to present an effective counter-argument, this emoticon, in conjunction with some desperately conceived, illogical statement, supposedly represents a response to the rest of us who can actually think while standing on our feet.

Until you can prove otherwise, Barnes' allegations are suspect.

Again, according to your opinion.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: conjur

Again, according to your opinion.
No, not just my opinion, but rather basic reasoning.

- Barnes says he asked Adger to help get Bush in the Guard.

- Col. Staub, the unit commander with documented vacancies in his unit at the time, says no one made such a request of him.

He said/he said. No conclusive proof exists.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
30,306
44,610
136
Concerning my service to this Nation, I have fought and won more battles that your little spirit can ever imagine or ever accept. My greatest single victory and the one with the most affect on the course of this Nation?

You're quite taken with yourself, aren't you? Your apparent need to appear noble worries me...

Getting on my face before God and asking him to heal this Land


You need help. Your sanctimonious affliction is making you dream up 'victories' as well as be a complete ass on this forum. Advertise your spirituality elsewhere.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
I'll be interested in what he says, but these allegations was discredited five years ago by his commanding officer. This story is NOT something new at all.

Still waiting to hear what you think about his payroll records.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
I'll be interested in what he says, but these allegations was discredited five years ago by his commanding officer. This story is NOT something new at all.

Still waiting to hear what you think about his payroll records.

Asked and answered.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
I'll be interested in what he says, but these allegations was discredited five years ago by his commanding officer. This story is NOT something new at all.

Still waiting to hear what you think about his payroll records.

Asked and answered.

All you said was "Guess that makes things worse for Bush. He managed to get paid and credit for times he wasn't there."

And your proof is? You know it's innocent until proven guilty in this country. Not innocent until proven Bush.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
I'll be interested in what he says, but these allegations was discredited five years ago by his commanding officer. This story is NOT something new at all.

Still waiting to hear what you think about his payroll records.
Asked and answered.
All you said was "Guess that makes things worse for Bush. He managed to get paid and credit for times he wasn't there."

And your proof is? You know it's innocent until proven guilty in this country. Not innocent until proven Bush.
Well, the missing documents, the lack of any witness (Despite a $10,000 offer from Gary Trudeau that is yet unclaimed) speak volumes.

And, btw, this isn't a court of law...it's the court of public opinion.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
I'll be interested in what he says, but these allegations was discredited five years ago by his commanding officer. This story is NOT something new at all.

Still waiting to hear what you think about his payroll records.
Asked and answered.
All you said was "Guess that makes things worse for Bush. He managed to get paid and credit for times he wasn't there."

And your proof is? You know it's innocent until proven guilty in this country. Not innocent until proven Bush.
Well, the missing documents, the lack of any witness (Despite a $10,000 offer from Gary Trudeau that is yet unclaimed) speak volumes.

And, btw, this isn't a court of law...it's the court of public opinion.

That is still no where near the amount of evidence needed to be able to say what you claim.

"court of public opinion", I would hope this would be based off of facts as well. In this case you still have none.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOL....records.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Documents that should have been written to explain gaps in President Bush's Texas Air National Guard service are missing from the military records released about his service in 1972 and 1973, according to regulations and outside experts.

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.

No such records have been made public and the government told The Associated Press in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that it has released all records it can find.

Outside experts suggest that National Guard commanders may not have produced documentation required by their own regulations.

"One of the downfalls back then in the National Guard was that not everyone wanted to be chief of staff of the Air Force. They just wanted to fly or maintain airplanes. So the record keeping could have been better," said retired Maj. Gen. Paul A. Weaver Jr., a former head of the Air National Guard. He said the documents may not have been kept in the first place.

Democrats allege favoritism
Challenging the government's declaration that no more documents exist, the AP identified five categories of records that should have been generated after Bush skipped his pilot's physical and missed five months of training.

"Each of these actions by any member of the National Guard should have generated the creation of many documents that have yet to be produced," AP lawyer David Schulz wrote the Justice Department August 26.

White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said there were no other documents to explain discrepancies in Bush's files.

Military service during the Vietnam War has become an issue in the presidential election as both candidates debate the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Democrat John Kerry commanded a Navy Swift boat in Vietnam and won five medals, including a Silver Star. But his heroism has been challenged in ads by some veterans who support Bush.

The president served stateside in the Air National Guard during Vietnam. Democrats have accused him of shirking his Guard service and getting favored treatment as the son of a prominent Washington figure.

The AP talked to experts unaffiliated with either campaign who have reviewed Bush's files for missing documents. They said it was not unusual for guard commanders to ignore deficiencies by junior officers such as Bush. But they said missing a physical exam, which caused him to be grounded, was not common.

"It's sort of like a code of honor that you didn't go DNF (duty not including flying)," said retired Air Force Col. Leonard Walls, who flew 181 combat missions over Vietnam. "There was a lot of pride in keeping combat-ready status."

Bush has said he fulfilled all his obligations. He was in the Texas Air National Guard from 1968 to 1973 and was trained to fly F-102 fighters.

"I'm proud of my service," Bush told a rally last weekend in Lima, Ohio.

Records of Bush's service have significant gaps, starting in 1972. Bush has said he left Texas that year to work on the unsuccessful Senate campaign in Alabama of family friend Winton Blount.

Missing files
The five kinds of missing files are:


A report from the Texas Air National Guard to Bush's local draft board certifying that Bush remained in good standing; The government has released copies of those DD Form 44 documents for Bush for 1971 and earlier years but not for 1972 or 1973. Records from Bush's draft board in Houston do not show his draft status changed after he joined the guard in 1968. The AP obtained the draft board records August 27 under the Freedom of Information Act.


Records of a required investigation into why Bush lost flight status; When Bush skipped his 1972 physical, regulations required his Texas commanders to "direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination," according to the Air Force manual at the time. An investigative report was supposed to be forwarded "with the command recommendation" to Air Force officials "for final determination." Bush's spokesmen have said he skipped the exam because he knew he would be doing desk duty in Alabama. But Bush was required to take the physical by the end of July 1972, more than a month before he won final approval to train in Alabama.


A written acknowledgment from Bush that he had received the orders grounding him; His Texas commanders were ordered to have Bush sign such a document; but none has been released.


Reports of formal counseling sessions Bush was required to have after missing more than three training sessions; Bush missed at least five months' worth of National Guard training in 1972. No documents have surfaced indicating Bush was counseled or had written authorization to skip that training or make it up later. Commanders did have broad discretion to allow guardsmen to make up for missed training sessions, said Weaver and Lawrence Korb, Pentagon personnel chief during the Reagan administration from 1981 to 1985. "If you missed it, you could make it up," said Korb, who now works for the Center for American Progress, which supports Kerry.


A signed statement from Bush acknowledging he could be called to active duty if he did not promptly transfer to another guard unit after leaving Texas; The statement was required as part of a Vietnam-era crackdown on no-show guardsmen. Bush was approved in September 1972 to train with the Alabama unit, more than four months after he left Texas.


From Guard to Harvard
Bush was approved to train in September, October and November 1972 with the Alabama Air National Guard's 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group. The only record tying Bush to that unit is a dental exam at the group's Montgomery base in January 1973. No records have been released giving Bush permission to train with the 187th after November 1972.

Walls, the Air Force combat veteran, was assigned to the 187th in 1972 and 1973 to train its pilots to fly the F-4 Phantom. Walls and more than a dozen other members of the 187th say they never saw Bush. One member of the unit, retired Lt. Col. John Calhoun, has said he remembers Bush showing up for training with the 187th.

Pay records show Bush was credited for training in January, April and May 1973; other files indicate that service was outside Texas.

A May 1973 yearly evaluation from Bush's Texas unit gives the future president no ratings and stated Bush had not been seen at the Texas base since April 1972. In a directive from June 29, 1973, an Air Force personnel official pressed Bush's unit for information about his Alabama service.

"This officer should have been reassigned in May 1972," wrote Master Sgt. Daniel P. Harkness, "since he no longer is training in his AFSC (Air Force Service Category, or job title) or with his unit of assignment."

Then-Maj. Rufus G. Martin replied November 12, 1973: "Not rated for the period 1 May 72 through 30 Apr 73. Report for this period not available for administrative reasons."

By then, Texas Air National Guard officials had approved Bush's request to leave the guard to attend Harvard Business School; his last days of duty were in July 1973.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOL....records.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Documents that should have been written to explain gaps in President Bush's Texas Air National Guard service are missing from the military records released about his service in 1972 and 1973, according to regulations and outside experts.

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.

No such records have been made public and the government told The Associated Press in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that it has released all records it can find.

Outside experts suggest that National Guard commanders may not have produced documentation required by their own regulations.

"One of the downfalls back then in the National Guard was that not everyone wanted to be chief of staff of the Air Force. They just wanted to fly or maintain airplanes. So the record keeping could have been better," said retired Maj. Gen. Paul A. Weaver Jr., a former head of the Air National Guard. He said the documents may not have been kept in the first place.

Democrats allege favoritism
Challenging the government's declaration that no more documents exist, the AP identified five categories of records that should have been generated after Bush skipped his pilot's physical and missed five months of training.

"Each of these actions by any member of the National Guard should have generated the creation of many documents that have yet to be produced," AP lawyer David Schulz wrote the Justice Department August 26.

White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said there were no other documents to explain discrepancies in Bush's files.

Military service during the Vietnam War has become an issue in the presidential election as both candidates debate the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Democrat John Kerry commanded a Navy Swift boat in Vietnam and won five medals, including a Silver Star. But his heroism has been challenged in ads by some veterans who support Bush.

The president served stateside in the Air National Guard during Vietnam. Democrats have accused him of shirking his Guard service and getting favored treatment as the son of a prominent Washington figure.

The AP talked to experts unaffiliated with either campaign who have reviewed Bush's files for missing documents. They said it was not unusual for guard commanders to ignore deficiencies by junior officers such as Bush. But they said missing a physical exam, which caused him to be grounded, was not common.

"It's sort of like a code of honor that you didn't go DNF (duty not including flying)," said retired Air Force Col. Leonard Walls, who flew 181 combat missions over Vietnam. "There was a lot of pride in keeping combat-ready status."

Bush has said he fulfilled all his obligations. He was in the Texas Air National Guard from 1968 to 1973 and was trained to fly F-102 fighters.

"I'm proud of my service," Bush told a rally last weekend in Lima, Ohio.

Records of Bush's service have significant gaps, starting in 1972. Bush has said he left Texas that year to work on the unsuccessful Senate campaign in Alabama of family friend Winton Blount.

Missing files
The five kinds of missing files are:


A report from the Texas Air National Guard to Bush's local draft board certifying that Bush remained in good standing; The government has released copies of those DD Form 44 documents for Bush for 1971 and earlier years but not for 1972 or 1973. Records from Bush's draft board in Houston do not show his draft status changed after he joined the guard in 1968. The AP obtained the draft board records August 27 under the Freedom of Information Act.


Records of a required investigation into why Bush lost flight status; When Bush skipped his 1972 physical, regulations required his Texas commanders to "direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination," according to the Air Force manual at the time. An investigative report was supposed to be forwarded "with the command recommendation" to Air Force officials "for final determination." Bush's spokesmen have said he skipped the exam because he knew he would be doing desk duty in Alabama. But Bush was required to take the physical by the end of July 1972, more than a month before he won final approval to train in Alabama.


A written acknowledgment from Bush that he had received the orders grounding him; His Texas commanders were ordered to have Bush sign such a document; but none has been released.


Reports of formal counseling sessions Bush was required to have after missing more than three training sessions; Bush missed at least five months' worth of National Guard training in 1972. No documents have surfaced indicating Bush was counseled or had written authorization to skip that training or make it up later. Commanders did have broad discretion to allow guardsmen to make up for missed training sessions, said Weaver and Lawrence Korb, Pentagon personnel chief during the Reagan administration from 1981 to 1985. "If you missed it, you could make it up," said Korb, who now works for the Center for American Progress, which supports Kerry.


A signed statement from Bush acknowledging he could be called to active duty if he did not promptly transfer to another guard unit after leaving Texas; The statement was required as part of a Vietnam-era crackdown on no-show guardsmen. Bush was approved in September 1972 to train with the Alabama unit, more than four months after he left Texas.


From Guard to Harvard
Bush was approved to train in September, October and November 1972 with the Alabama Air National Guard's 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group. The only record tying Bush to that unit is a dental exam at the group's Montgomery base in January 1973. No records have been released giving Bush permission to train with the 187th after November 1972.

Walls, the Air Force combat veteran, was assigned to the 187th in 1972 and 1973 to train its pilots to fly the F-4 Phantom. Walls and more than a dozen other members of the 187th say they never saw Bush. One member of the unit, retired Lt. Col. John Calhoun, has said he remembers Bush showing up for training with the 187th.

Pay records show Bush was credited for training in January, April and May 1973; other files indicate that service was outside Texas.

A May 1973 yearly evaluation from Bush's Texas unit gives the future president no ratings and stated Bush had not been seen at the Texas base since April 1972. In a directive from June 29, 1973, an Air Force personnel official pressed Bush's unit for information about his Alabama service.

"This officer should have been reassigned in May 1972," wrote Master Sgt. Daniel P. Harkness, "since he no longer is training in his AFSC (Air Force Service Category, or job title) or with his unit of assignment."

Then-Maj. Rufus G. Martin replied November 12, 1973: "Not rated for the period 1 May 72 through 30 Apr 73. Report for this period not available for administrative reasons."

By then, Texas Air National Guard officials had approved Bush's request to leave the guard to attend Harvard Business School; his last days of duty were in July 1973.

His pay records explain all that, and I already talked about his medical examination being a non issue.

Edit: I will have more. Heading off to work now.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: conjur
60 Minutes II WEDNESDAY NIGHT

On Wednesday night, Ben Barnes is set to elaborate on his story of being "ashamed" he helped Bush get into the Texas Air National Guard, ahead of young men without family ties, on "60 Minutes II."
From the Dallas Morning News; July 4, 1999, courtesy of TexShare:

Records provided to The News by Tom Hail, a historian for the Texas Air National Guard, show that the unit Mr. Bush signed up for was not filled. In mid-1968, the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, based in Houston, had 156 openings among its authorized staff of 925 military personnel.

Of those, 26 openings were for officer slots, such as that filled by Mr. Bush, and 130 were for enlisted men and women. Also, several former Air Force pilots who served in the unit said that they were recruited from elsewhere to fly for the Texas Guard.

Officers who supervised Mr. Bush and approved his admission to the Guard said they were never contacted by anyone on Mr. Bush's behalf.

"He didn't have any strings pulled, because there weren't any strings to pull," said Leroy Thompson of Brownwood, who commanded the squadron that kept the waiting list for the guard at Ellington Air Force Base. "Our practices were under incredible scrutiny then. It was a very ticklish time."

[...]

Mr. Bush said he sought the Guard position on his own, before graduating from Yale University in 1968. He personally met with Col. Walter B. Staudt, commander of the 147th group.

In an interview, Mr. Bush said he walked into Col. Staudt's Houston office and told him he wanted to be a fighter pilot.

"He told me they were looking for pilots," Mr. Bush said. He said he was told that there were five or six flying slots available, and he got one of them.

While Guard slots generally were coveted, pilot positions required superior education, physical fitness and the willingness to spend more than a year in full-time training.

"If somebody like that came along, you'd snatch them up," said the former commander, who retired as a general. "He took no advantage. It wouldn't have made any difference whether his daddy was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
From the Dallas Morning News; September 8, 1999, via TexShare:

A top Barnes aide, Nick Kralj of Austin, who simultaneously served as aide to the late Gen. Rose, already testified in the lawsuit that he passed on names of Guard applicants from Mr. Barnes to Gen. Rose. He said that he couldn't recall the applicants' names but that Mr. Bush was not among them.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
From the above Dallas Morning News article dated September 8, 1999:

Stephen Adger, 50, now a Houston businessman, said his father never mentioned having helped Mr. Bush but said it is unlikely Mr. Bush would have needed that: His qualifications and connections were obvious.

"He may have done it or he may not have done it," Mr. Adger said. "But it didn't take Gen. Staudt [to get Mr. Bush into the Guard]. I mean here George W. shows up, a graduate of Yale, a great guy, son of a congressman, that's all he needed."
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
From the Dallas Morning News; September 8, 1999, via TexShare:

A top Barnes aide, Nick Kralj of Austin, who simultaneously served as aide to the late Gen. Rose, already testified in the lawsuit that he passed on names of Guard applicants from Mr. Barnes to Gen. Rose. He said that he couldn't recall the applicants' names but that Mr. Bush was not among them.



Wow, great proof, LOL He can't recall the names, LMAO. Then how can he say Bush's name wasn't on them??? What a bunch of doubletalk. That's such conclusive proof that I see no sense in arguing with you!!
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: conjur
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOL....records.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Documents that should have been written to explain gaps in President Bush's Texas Air National Guard service are missing from the military records released about his service in 1972 and 1973, according to regulations and outside experts.

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.

No such records have been made public and the government told The Associated Press in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that it has released all records it can find.

Outside experts suggest that National Guard commanders may not have produced documentation required by their own regulations.

"One of the downfalls back then in the National Guard was that not everyone wanted to be chief of staff of the Air Force. They just wanted to fly or maintain airplanes. So the record keeping could have been better," said retired Maj. Gen. Paul A. Weaver Jr., a former head of the Air National Guard. He said the documents may not have been kept in the first place.

Democrats allege favoritism
Challenging the government's declaration that no more documents exist, the AP identified five categories of records that should have been generated after Bush skipped his pilot's physical and missed five months of training.

"Each of these actions by any member of the National Guard should have generated the creation of many documents that have yet to be produced," AP lawyer David Schulz wrote the Justice Department August 26.

White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said there were no other documents to explain discrepancies in Bush's files.

Military service during the Vietnam War has become an issue in the presidential election as both candidates debate the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Democrat John Kerry commanded a Navy Swift boat in Vietnam and won five medals, including a Silver Star. But his heroism has been challenged in ads by some veterans who support Bush.

The president served stateside in the Air National Guard during Vietnam. Democrats have accused him of shirking his Guard service and getting favored treatment as the son of a prominent Washington figure.

The AP talked to experts unaffiliated with either campaign who have reviewed Bush's files for missing documents. They said it was not unusual for guard commanders to ignore deficiencies by junior officers such as Bush. But they said missing a physical exam, which caused him to be grounded, was not common.

"It's sort of like a code of honor that you didn't go DNF (duty not including flying)," said retired Air Force Col. Leonard Walls, who flew 181 combat missions over Vietnam. "There was a lot of pride in keeping combat-ready status."

Bush has said he fulfilled all his obligations. He was in the Texas Air National Guard from 1968 to 1973 and was trained to fly F-102 fighters.

"I'm proud of my service," Bush told a rally last weekend in Lima, Ohio.

Records of Bush's service have significant gaps, starting in 1972. Bush has said he left Texas that year to work on the unsuccessful Senate campaign in Alabama of family friend Winton Blount.

Missing files
The five kinds of missing files are:


A report from the Texas Air National Guard to Bush's local draft board certifying that Bush remained in good standing; The government has released copies of those DD Form 44 documents for Bush for 1971 and earlier years but not for 1972 or 1973. Records from Bush's draft board in Houston do not show his draft status changed after he joined the guard in 1968. The AP obtained the draft board records August 27 under the Freedom of Information Act.


Records of a required investigation into why Bush lost flight status; When Bush skipped his 1972 physical, regulations required his Texas commanders to "direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination," according to the Air Force manual at the time. An investigative report was supposed to be forwarded "with the command recommendation" to Air Force officials "for final determination." Bush's spokesmen have said he skipped the exam because he knew he would be doing desk duty in Alabama. But Bush was required to take the physical by the end of July 1972, more than a month before he won final approval to train in Alabama.


A written acknowledgment from Bush that he had received the orders grounding him; His Texas commanders were ordered to have Bush sign such a document; but none has been released.


Reports of formal counseling sessions Bush was required to have after missing more than three training sessions; Bush missed at least five months' worth of National Guard training in 1972. No documents have surfaced indicating Bush was counseled or had written authorization to skip that training or make it up later. Commanders did have broad discretion to allow guardsmen to make up for missed training sessions, said Weaver and Lawrence Korb, Pentagon personnel chief during the Reagan administration from 1981 to 1985. "If you missed it, you could make it up," said Korb, who now works for the Center for American Progress, which supports Kerry.


A signed statement from Bush acknowledging he could be called to active duty if he did not promptly transfer to another guard unit after leaving Texas; The statement was required as part of a Vietnam-era crackdown on no-show guardsmen. Bush was approved in September 1972 to train with the Alabama unit, more than four months after he left Texas.


From Guard to Harvard
Bush was approved to train in September, October and November 1972 with the Alabama Air National Guard's 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group. The only record tying Bush to that unit is a dental exam at the group's Montgomery base in January 1973. No records have been released giving Bush permission to train with the 187th after November 1972.

Walls, the Air Force combat veteran, was assigned to the 187th in 1972 and 1973 to train its pilots to fly the F-4 Phantom. Walls and more than a dozen other members of the 187th say they never saw Bush. One member of the unit, retired Lt. Col. John Calhoun, has said he remembers Bush showing up for training with the 187th.

Pay records show Bush was credited for training in January, April and May 1973; other files indicate that service was outside Texas.

A May 1973 yearly evaluation from Bush's Texas unit gives the future president no ratings and stated Bush had not been seen at the Texas base since April 1972. In a directive from June 29, 1973, an Air Force personnel official pressed Bush's unit for information about his Alabama service.

"This officer should have been reassigned in May 1972," wrote Master Sgt. Daniel P. Harkness, "since he no longer is training in his AFSC (Air Force Service Category, or job title) or with his unit of assignment."

Then-Maj. Rufus G. Martin replied November 12, 1973: "Not rated for the period 1 May 72 through 30 Apr 73. Report for this period not available for administrative reasons."

By then, Texas Air National Guard officials had approved Bush's request to leave the guard to attend Harvard Business School; his last days of duty were in July 1973.

His pay records explain all that, and I already talked about his medical examination being a non issue.

Edit: I will have more. Heading off to work now.


Paystubs prove nothing. Get attendance records if you can. Find something besides 1 dental chart. These are the most ridiculous attempt of providing "proof" that I can imagine. If that's the best proof Bush can come up with, it's no wonder the country is in such bad shape and so badly divided.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
From the above Dallas Morning News article dated September 8, 1999:

Stephen Adger, 50, now a Houston businessman, said his father never mentioned having helped Mr. Bush but said it is unlikely Mr. Bush would have needed that: His qualifications and connections were obvious.

"He may have done it or he may not have done it," Mr. Adger said. "But it didn't take Gen. Staudt [to get Mr. Bush into the Guard]. I mean here George W. shows up, a graduate of Yale, a great guy, son of a congressman, that's all he needed."


nod, nod

wink wink

know what I mean

know what I mean!!
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: burnedout
From the Dallas Morning News; September 8, 1999, via TexShare:

A top Barnes aide, Nick Kralj of Austin, who simultaneously served as aide to the late Gen. Rose, already testified in the lawsuit that he passed on names of Guard applicants from Mr. Barnes to Gen. Rose. He said that he couldn't recall the applicants' names but that Mr. Bush was not among them.

Wow, great proof, LOL He can't recall the names, LMAO. Then how can he say Bush's name wasn't on them??? What a bunch of doubletalk. That's such conclusive proof that I see no sense in arguing with you!!
In otherwords, a "top Barnes aide" from that period contradicts his contemporary allegations.

Face it. Other than his own partisan drivel, Barnes can offer no conclusive proof that he helped Bush into the TxANG.
 
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