Bush where was he?

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1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Note: I was moved to non-flight status (after my millions of dollars of training) at the end of my service. Mainly because they were changing the war plan, and didn't want to have to brief me, then have me get out, and tell me to forget what I heard.


I realize that Nixon was elected in 1968 on the promise of ending the Vietnam war with honor and that it was starting to wind down around 1971. Did you stop your flying because you didn't bother to take your flight physical (mandatory drug test)? I didn't think so.

GWB signed a statement of intent (Statement of Intent) as I'm sure you did, but as soon as the war started to wind down, he never honored that statement. It was as worthless as the paper it was written on. Not only that, why can't GWB produce collegue's from his time in the Alabama ANG who can vouch for him being there? If he attended the drills, didn't he interact and meet people?? Surely there should be several people who would clearly remember him.

The Bush people who attacked Kerry on his war record should have looked a little closer at their own canidate's war record. When you compare the two, it seems to me that the difference between them is that of night and day.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
I'm not doubting any favoritism at all because my personal belief is that BG Staudt dabbled in politics himself.

However, I seriously doubt Ben Barnes played any major role in Bush's entry into the TxANG.

First he denies any influence in the matter. Mysteriously, one month later, Barnes retracts then the denial. Second, the GTECH lawsuit produced some interesting revelations - namely Barnes' dismissal of the partiality theory as applicable to the contractor. Third, Barnes is a Dem; Bush a Repub. Fourth, seeing as how he's invested so much money into Kerry and the party through campaign contributions, he certainly has motivation to twist the truth. Fifth, he makes an inaccurate statement during his propaganda commercial. And finally, the media plays this situation again with less scrutiny or sense of critical inquiry than back in '99.

The problem I really have is that everyone is so quick to critically analyze one side without affording the same critical analysis to the other.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
I'm not doubting any favoritism at all because my personal belief is that BG Staudt dabbled in politics himself.

However, I seriously doubt Ben Barnes played any major role in Bush's entry into the TxANG.

First he denies any influence in the matter. Mysteriously, one month later, Barnes retracts then the denial. Second, the GTECH lawsuit produced some interesting revelations - namely Barnes' dismissal of the partiality theory as applicable to the contractor. Third, Barnes is a Dem; Bush a Repub. Fourth, seeing as how he's invested so much money into Kerry and the party through campaign contributions, he certainly has motivation to twist the truth. Fifth, he makes an inaccurate statement during his propaganda commercial. And finally, the media plays this situation again with less scrutiny or sense of critical inquiry than back in '99.

The problem I really have is that everyone is so quick to critically analyze one side without affording the same critical analysis to the other.


I think they are analyzing Kerry's record. The SBVFTT sure tried to twist things around. I especially like the one where he intenionally injured himself with a grenade, LOL. All I have to say about that is , WOW, damn good shooting.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Note: I was moved to non-flight status (after my millions of dollars of training) at the end of my service. Mainly because they were changing the war plan, and didn't want to have to brief me, then have me get out, and tell me to forget what I heard.


I realize that Nixon was elected in 1968 on the promise of ending the Vietnam war with honor and that it was starting to wind down around 1971. Did you stop your flying because you didn't bother to take your flight physical (mandatory drug test)? I didn't think so.

GWB signed a statement of intent (Statement of Intent) as I'm sure you did, but as soon as the war started to wind down, he never honored that statement. It was as worthless as the paper it was written on. Not only that, why can't GWB produce collegue's from his time in the Alabama ANG who can vouch for him being there? If he attended the drills, didn't he interact and meet people?? Surely there should be several people who would clearly remember him.

The Bush people who attacked Kerry on his war record should have looked a little closer at their own canidate's war record. When you compare the two, it seems to me that the difference between them is that of night and day.


Last time Bush flew, as records show, was April of 1972. He was "suspended" in September of 1972. The physical is only mandatory if your going to fly. No big deal really. If they needed him to fly, he would just have to requalify and take the medical exam. The physical has to be done by a Flight Surgeon. A regular doctor won't do. Then there is the added problem of being in the Guard. Flight Surgeons aren't always available. Maybe once a month to give physicals. Why go though all the trouble if your on non-flight status?

I suggest you try to find out what Bush's (Statement of Intent) meant and not guess. The military had no further use for someone like Bush and released him.

About the "mandatory drug test". The Air Force did not have "mandatory drug tests" until the 1980s, before that I believe only those under the age of 23 were tested. Bush was 25 when he entered the Guard.

Edit: correction he was born in 1946 making him 22 when he entered the Guard. However he was 26 by the time he was "suspended" making ineligible for drug testing.
 

burnedout

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,249
2
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

I think they are analyzing Kerry's record. The SBVFTT sure tried to twist things around. I especially like the one where he intenionally injured himself with a grenade, LOL. All I have to say about that is , WOW, damn good shooting.
Kerry hasn't released his full medical or service records yet. There's speculation of sleeping disorders, etc. However, all that garbage is for another thread.

Anyway, in relation to what was stated earlier, I wish the media would evaluate Barnes and his earlier statements/actions as much as those from the Bush side.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOL...national.ap/index.html

A six-month historical record of his 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, also turned over to the AP on Tuesday, shows some of the training Bush missed with his colleagues during that time.

It showed the unit joined a "24-hour active alert mission to safeguard against surprise attack" in the southern United States beginning on Oct. 6, 1972, a mission for which Bush was not present, according to his pay records.

Bush's lone service in October was outside Texas, presumably with an Alabama unit he had permission to train with in September, October and November 1972.

As part of the mission, the 147th kept two F-102A jets -- the same type Bush flew before he was grounded -- on ready alert to be launched within five minutes' warning.

The newly released records do not include any from five categories of documents Bush's commanders had been required to keep in response to the gaps in Bush's training in 1972 and 1973

Glad to see he was ready to defend us in 1972. These records were rleased today, despite the Bush people saying they were all released.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Note: I was moved to non-flight status (after my millions of dollars of training) at the end of my service. Mainly because they were changing the war plan, and didn't want to have to brief me, then have me get out, and tell me to forget what I heard.


I realize that Nixon was elected in 1968 on the promise of ending the Vietnam war with honor and that it was starting to wind down around 1971. Did you stop your flying because you didn't bother to take your flight physical (mandatory drug test)? I didn't think so.

GWB signed a statement of intent (Statement of Intent) as I'm sure you did, but as soon as the war started to wind down, he never honored that statement. It was as worthless as the paper it was written on. Not only that, why can't GWB produce collegue's from his time in the Alabama ANG who can vouch for him being there? If he attended the drills, didn't he interact and meet people?? Surely there should be several people who would clearly remember him.

The Bush people who attacked Kerry on his war record should have looked a little closer at their own canidate's war record. When you compare the two, it seems to me that the difference between them is that of night and day.


Last time Bush flew, as records show, was April of 1972. He was "suspended" in September of 1972. The physical is only mandatory if your going to fly. No big deal really. If they needed him to fly, he would just have to requalify and take the medical exam. The physical has to be done by a Flight Surgeon. A regular doctor won't do. Then there is the added problem of being in the Guard. Flight Surgeons aren't always available. Maybe once a month to give physicals. Why go though all the trouble if your on non-flight status?

I suggest you try to find out what Bush's (Statement of Intent) meant and not guess. The military had no further use for someone like Bush and released him.

About the "mandatory drug test". The Air Force did not have "mandatory drug tests" until the 1980s, before that I believe only those under the age of 23 were tested. Bush was 25 when he entered the Guard.

Edit: correction he was born in 1946 making him 22 when he entered the Guard. However he was 26 by the time he was "suspended" making ineligible for drug testing.


You must mean "your" version of what it means? I can read what he signed for myself. I know what I would requie of myself if I signed it. I don't believe Bush met the expectations that I would expected of myself had I had the same oportunity he had. There is no reason that GWB couldn't have gotten his physical before he was offically grounded, if he had wanted to. That is where he violated his letter of intent IMO.

It looks to me like Bush had no further use for the military before the military had no further use for him. That's the way I read it. Obviously you disagree.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: burnedout
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

I think they are analyzing Kerry's record. The SBVFTT sure tried to twist things around. I especially like the one where he intenionally injured himself with a grenade, LOL. All I have to say about that is , WOW, damn good shooting.
Kerry hasn't released his full medical or service records yet. There's speculation of sleeping disorders, etc. However, all that garbage is for another thread.

Anyway, in relation to what was stated earlier, I wish the media would evaluate Barnes and his earlier statements/actions as much as those from the Bush side.

It will be interesting to see 60 Minutes tonight and see what happens. Maybe he will go down in flames then? Or not? I don't see how his claim can be proven or refuted since I think it will revolve around Sidney Adger who is deceased.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
he Globe said in July 1973, before Bush moved from Houston to Cambridge, Massachusetts, to attend Harvard Business School, he signed a document saying: "It is my responsibility to locate and be assigned to another Reserve forces unit or mobilization augmentation position. If I fail to do so, I am subject to involuntary order to active duty for up to 24 months... "

Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett told the Washington Post in 1999 that the future president had served at a Boston-area Air Force Reserve unit after leaving Houston. But Bush never joined a Boston-area unit, the Globe said.

"I must have misspoke," Bartlett, now White House communications director, was quoted as telling the Globe in a recent interview.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArt...ws&storyID=6182584

The plot thinkens.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
he Globe said in July 1973, before Bush moved from Houston to Cambridge, Massachusetts, to attend Harvard Business School, he signed a document saying: "It is my responsibility to locate and be assigned to another Reserve forces unit or mobilization augmentation position. If I fail to do so, I am subject to involuntary order to active duty for up to 24 months... "

Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett told the Washington Post in 1999 that the future president had served at a Boston-area Air Force Reserve unit after leaving Houston. But Bush never joined a Boston-area unit, the Globe said.

"I must have misspoke," Bartlett, now White House communications director, was quoted as telling the Globe in a recent interview.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArt...ws&storyID=6182584

The plot thinkens.

I say his active duty starts NOW.... then you'll see how fast we get out of Iraq.

 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Note: I was moved to non-flight status (after my millions of dollars of training) at the end of my service. Mainly because they were changing the war plan, and didn't want to have to brief me, then have me get out, and tell me to forget what I heard.


I realize that Nixon was elected in 1968 on the promise of ending the Vietnam war with honor and that it was starting to wind down around 1971. Did you stop your flying because you didn't bother to take your flight physical (mandatory drug test)? I didn't think so.

GWB signed a statement of intent (Statement of Intent) as I'm sure you did, but as soon as the war started to wind down, he never honored that statement. It was as worthless as the paper it was written on. Not only that, why can't GWB produce collegue's from his time in the Alabama ANG who can vouch for him being there? If he attended the drills, didn't he interact and meet people?? Surely there should be several people who would clearly remember him.

The Bush people who attacked Kerry on his war record should have looked a little closer at their own canidate's war record. When you compare the two, it seems to me that the difference between them is that of night and day.


Last time Bush flew, as records show, was April of 1972. He was "suspended" in September of 1972. The physical is only mandatory if your going to fly. No big deal really. If they needed him to fly, he would just have to requalify and take the medical exam. The physical has to be done by a Flight Surgeon. A regular doctor won't do. Then there is the added problem of being in the Guard. Flight Surgeons aren't always available. Maybe once a month to give physicals. Why go though all the trouble if your on non-flight status?

I suggest you try to find out what Bush's (Statement of Intent) meant and not guess. The military had no further use for someone like Bush and released him.

About the "mandatory drug test". The Air Force did not have "mandatory drug tests" until the 1980s, before that I believe only those under the age of 23 were tested. Bush was 25 when he entered the Guard.

Edit: correction he was born in 1946 making him 22 when he entered the Guard. However he was 26 by the time he was "suspended" making ineligible for drug testing.


You must mean "your" version of what it means? I can read what he signed for myself. I know what I would requie of myself if I signed it. I don't believe Bush met the expectations that I would expected of myself had I had the same oportunity he had. There is no reason that GWB couldn't have gotten his physical before he was offically grounded, if he had wanted to. That is where he violated his letter of intent IMO.

It looks to me like Bush had no further use for the military before the military had no further use for him. That's the way I read it. Obviously you disagree.

"There is no reason that GWB couldn't have gotten his physical before he was offically grounded, if he had wanted to. "

You sound like you say this with some sort of authority. Again: If you are on non-flying status there is no requirement AT ALL to keep your qualifications for flight status. His qualifications expired AFTER he was put on non-flight status. You are holding him to a standard that no one else before has ever been. An example: if you never need to drive a car again (or you can't), why bother getting a driver's license?

"You must mean "your" version of what it means?"

My "version" happens to be what the Guard happens to think and that is all that matters. What I asked you do is find why pliots are ask to sign it. You have no qualification to interpet or understand what it means on your own. If you want me to explain it I will. Just ask.

I think you have not done any research on your own and you're just spoon fled what some crazy hack off an internet site believes. You talking about a "mandatory drug test" is a bunch of crap. If you did do some research you would be able to see that. You should really quit before you make a bigger idiot out of yourself.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
I have done research. I was under the impression that the drug testing started just before Bush's physical was due. If you have a link to where the rules regarding the age's and conditions of who was required and who wasn't required to take drug tests, post it and I'll read it. So far, I only have your word, and since I don't know you I take what you say with a grain of salt, OK?

As far as the Statement of Intent goes, the same thing applies. Show me the "rules" of why pilots are required to sign it. Just because your view is different then mine, I will thank you to quit calling me "spoon fed". Post your info and I will gladly read it. I won't just take you on your word for it. Why? Because I'm not an idiot, regardless of what you think so if you want to make your point, help me out with some links and get off your high horse.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
I guess I misspoke. The drug test were not mandatory, they were random.


Why would a physical exam present a problem for 1st Lt. Bush? A little-know fact reported in the London Times and the New York Post on June 18, 2000 gives a powerful clue. In April 1972 ? the same month that Bush "gave up" flying ? all the overseas and stateside military services began subjecting a small random sample in their ranks to substance abuse testing for alcohol and drugs. The Pentagon had announced its intention to do so initially back on December 31, 1969. If Bush reported for his scheduled physical in August 1972, he could have been subject to selection for a random substance abuse test.

Bush's spokesman told the London Times that Bush "was not aware of any changes that required a drug test." But this does not hold up under scrutiny. In 1969 ? the year following Bush's enlistment ? the Pentagon notified every unit in the military that it would implement random drug testing at some point in the near future. When that moment arrived ? April 1972 ? every enlisted person and officer throughout the military, both overseas and stateside, would have been aware of this dramatic change. After all, the whole purpose of the random drug testing was to make it absolutely clear to everyone in the Armed Forces that the Pentagon would not tolerate substance abuse of any kind by anyone.

There is circumstantial evidence pointing to substance abuse by Bush during this period. On the campaign trail, Bush has stated that he has not used drugs or alcohol in excess since 1974. But this chronology makes it possible that he was in fact abusing one or more of these substances in the summer of 1972.

Moreover, interviews with friends during this period reveal that Bush partied and drank regularly, and Bush admits he was a hard drinker at the time. And over the Christmas holidays, Bush got into a widely-reported emotional showdown with his father after taking his 16-year-old brother Marvin drinking, hitting garbage cans while driving home.

Thus, the September 29 memo is a "smoking jet" which points to a potentially devastating interpretation: that Bush stopped flying two years short of his obligation because of substance abuse ? either directly, because he failed his physical exam, or indirectly, because he refused to take it out of fear that he would fail it.

Is it unreasonable to raise the possibility that 1st Lt. Bush was suspended from flying as a direct or indirect consequence of substance abuse? It might be if there was no way for Bush to prove his innocence. But George W. Bush can readily defend himself, if he so chooses, simply by voluntarily releasing his complete military record.
LINKY

Random Testing. By regulation, each military member must be tested at least once per year. Reserve members must be tested at least once every two years. This is done by means of "random testing." Basically, a commander can order that either all or a random-selected sample of his/her unit be tested, at any time. Results of random testing can be used in court-martials (Under Article 1128a of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), article 15s (nonjudicial punishment), and involuntary discharges. This includes using the results to determine service characterization (honorable, general, or other-than-honorable). Members do not have the right to refuse random testing. However, commanders cannot order specific individuals to take a "random" test. Those selected must be truly "random."
LINKY


Now if you will expalin to me what your interpertation (and the ANG of the time period) is of what the "Statement of Intent" means I would appreciate it. To me it sure seems self explantory. I would think that they didn't want to invest a lot of money in a pilot who wasn't giving them 100%.
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
Zell Miller was right about kerry.

?I?m an internationalist,? Kerry told The Crimson in 1970. ?I?d like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations.?

The Crimson
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I guess I misspoke. The drug test were not mandatory, they were random.


Why would a physical exam present a problem for 1st Lt. Bush? A little-know fact reported in the London Times and the New York Post on June 18, 2000 gives a powerful clue. In April 1972 ? the same month that Bush "gave up" flying ? all the overseas and stateside military services began subjecting a small random sample in their ranks to substance abuse testing for alcohol and drugs. The Pentagon had announced its intention to do so initially back on December 31, 1969. If Bush reported for his scheduled physical in August 1972, he could have been subject to selection for a random substance abuse test.

Bush's spokesman told the London Times that Bush "was not aware of any changes that required a drug test." But this does not hold up under scrutiny. In 1969 ? the year following Bush's enlistment ? the Pentagon notified every unit in the military that it would implement random drug testing at some point in the near future. When that moment arrived ? April 1972 ? every enlisted person and officer throughout the military, both overseas and stateside, would have been aware of this dramatic change. After all, the whole purpose of the random drug testing was to make it absolutely clear to everyone in the Armed Forces that the Pentagon would not tolerate substance abuse of any kind by anyone.

There is circumstantial evidence pointing to substance abuse by Bush during this period. On the campaign trail, Bush has stated that he has not used drugs or alcohol in excess since 1974. But this chronology makes it possible that he was in fact abusing one or more of these substances in the summer of 1972.

Moreover, interviews with friends during this period reveal that Bush partied and drank regularly, and Bush admits he was a hard drinker at the time. And over the Christmas holidays, Bush got into a widely-reported emotional showdown with his father after taking his 16-year-old brother Marvin drinking, hitting garbage cans while driving home.

Thus, the September 29 memo is a "smoking jet" which points to a potentially devastating interpretation: that Bush stopped flying two years short of his obligation because of substance abuse ? either directly, because he failed his physical exam, or indirectly, because he refused to take it out of fear that he would fail it.

Is it unreasonable to raise the possibility that 1st Lt. Bush was suspended from flying as a direct or indirect consequence of substance abuse? It might be if there was no way for Bush to prove his innocence. But George W. Bush can readily defend himself, if he so chooses, simply by voluntarily releasing his complete military record.
LINKY

Random Testing. By regulation, each military member must be tested at least once per year. Reserve members must be tested at least once every two years. This is done by means of "random testing." Basically, a commander can order that either all or a random-selected sample of his/her unit be tested, at any time. Results of random testing can be used in court-martials (Under Article 1128a of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), article 15s (nonjudicial punishment), and involuntary discharges. This includes using the results to determine service characterization (honorable, general, or other-than-honorable). Members do not have the right to refuse random testing. However, commanders cannot order specific individuals to take a "random" test. Those selected must be truly "random."
LINKY


Now if you will expalin to me what your interpertation (and the ANG of the time period) is of what the "Statement of Intent" means I would appreciate it. To me it sure seems self explantory. I would think that they didn't want to invest a lot of money in a pilot who wasn't giving them 100%.

All a statment of intent is to ensure one's commitment to the Guard. They have certain requirments to fulfull this, which is laid out in the statement:

...upon successful completion of pilot training plan to return to my unit and fulfill

my obligation to the upmost of my ability. I have applied for pilot training with the

goal of making flying a lifetime pursuit and I believe I can best accomplish this to my

own satisfaction by serving as a member of the Air National Guard as long as possible.

"..upon successful completion of pilot training plan.."
records show he did that.

"plan to return to my unit and fulfill my obligation to the upmost of my ability."
Which he did. Records confirm that was well.

"I have applied for pilot training with the goal of making flying a lifetime pursuit"
A goal which he kept. He pursued it and accomplished it.

"I believe I can best accomplish this to my own satisfaction by serving as a member of
the Air National Guard as long as possible."
And he did and got an honorable discharge.

I agree I would expect anyone going into the ANG to give it 100%. Question is: how to prove what a person's intent is? The only person who knows is GWB. Bush held up his end of the bargin. The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Bush somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were shoved into non-flying desk jobs. Bush did not stop flying by choice.
 
Mar 28, 2003
65
0
0
I say we get Bush out of office. All of this conservative morality just makes me sick.

a) The war. While Hussein was working hard to comply with the UN resolutions and be as helpful to the UN weapons inspectors, Bush decides to unleash a load of bombs onto Baghdad. Then he sends a bunch of troops who signed up for military duty to perform that duty, but it was against their will! They're soldiers! They aren't supposed to fight or die! Plus, we didn't find any weapons of mass destruction. Bush lied! He wasn't misinformed by multiple intelligence agencies and national leaders! He obviously KNEW that all of those intelligence agencies were wrong and decided to go to war just to piss of France! What a waste! All we did was free a few million people, end a reign of terror, and strike a massive blow to the so-called "evil" forces of the world. What a useless, senseless, and unjust war.

b) Social issues. First and foremost; The Patriot Act. I have never seen such a rampant and uninhibited abuse of executive powers to violate the civil liberties of an individual. I can't tell you how many people that I know who have been searched and seized unnecessarily. It is out of hand. The fact that terrorists cannot act covertly under the noses of the government is a source for major upheaval. Also, the whole gay marriage thing; what a joke! Pass an emergency amendment in order to preserve the traditional values of marriage? Who needs traditional values? I WANT my children to grow up in a society where it is okay for homosexual culture to integrate and become a normal part of life. I mean, how else is my child going to grow up with the proper views of relationships, family units, and love if we don't have men making out with men and women making out with women everywhere in television and media?

c) Economic issues. Okay, the tax cut for the rich. Why give the rich a tax cut when they don't need it? I mean, from all of my reputable sources in the liberal community, I heard the wealthy got a tax cut and the poor got a tax increase. Although this contradicts the formal reports of a flat tax cut across the board... Oh well! It's Bush! It MUST be bad! And as for the declining economy right now, it is a shame and it is all the President's fault. Fact aside that the number of jobs is higher than ever in the history of our nation, home ownership is the highest it has ever been, and unemployment is the lowest it has been in over 20 years, it was done by Bush! The murderer! The evil upholder of nasty morals! We must vote Kerry 2004!

So I'm sure you are all convinced by the facts. Bush is not a good leader. Um... Bush bad! Vote democrat...





*This post brought to you by common sense international. see also: vote Bush
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I guess I misspoke. The drug test were not mandatory, they were random.


Why would a physical exam present a problem for 1st Lt. Bush? A little-know fact reported in the London Times and the New York Post on June 18, 2000 gives a powerful clue. In April 1972 ? the same month that Bush "gave up" flying ? all the overseas and stateside military services began subjecting a small random sample in their ranks to substance abuse testing for alcohol and drugs. The Pentagon had announced its intention to do so initially back on December 31, 1969. If Bush reported for his scheduled physical in August 1972, he could have been subject to selection for a random substance abuse test.

Bush's spokesman told the London Times that Bush "was not aware of any changes that required a drug test." But this does not hold up under scrutiny. In 1969 ? the year following Bush's enlistment ? the Pentagon notified every unit in the military that it would implement random drug testing at some point in the near future. When that moment arrived ? April 1972 ? every enlisted person and officer throughout the military, both overseas and stateside, would have been aware of this dramatic change. After all, the whole purpose of the random drug testing was to make it absolutely clear to everyone in the Armed Forces that the Pentagon would not tolerate substance abuse of any kind by anyone.

There is circumstantial evidence pointing to substance abuse by Bush during this period. On the campaign trail, Bush has stated that he has not used drugs or alcohol in excess since 1974. But this chronology makes it possible that he was in fact abusing one or more of these substances in the summer of 1972.

Moreover, interviews with friends during this period reveal that Bush partied and drank regularly, and Bush admits he was a hard drinker at the time. And over the Christmas holidays, Bush got into a widely-reported emotional showdown with his father after taking his 16-year-old brother Marvin drinking, hitting garbage cans while driving home.

Thus, the September 29 memo is a "smoking jet" which points to a potentially devastating interpretation: that Bush stopped flying two years short of his obligation because of substance abuse ? either directly, because he failed his physical exam, or indirectly, because he refused to take it out of fear that he would fail it.

Is it unreasonable to raise the possibility that 1st Lt. Bush was suspended from flying as a direct or indirect consequence of substance abuse? It might be if there was no way for Bush to prove his innocence. But George W. Bush can readily defend himself, if he so chooses, simply by voluntarily releasing his complete military record.
LINKY

Random Testing. By regulation, each military member must be tested at least once per year. Reserve members must be tested at least once every two years. This is done by means of "random testing." Basically, a commander can order that either all or a random-selected sample of his/her unit be tested, at any time. Results of random testing can be used in court-martials (Under Article 1128a of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), article 15s (nonjudicial punishment), and involuntary discharges. This includes using the results to determine service characterization (honorable, general, or other-than-honorable). Members do not have the right to refuse random testing. However, commanders cannot order specific individuals to take a "random" test. Those selected must be truly "random."
LINKY


Now if you will expalin to me what your interpertation (and the ANG of the time period) is of what the "Statement of Intent" means I would appreciate it. To me it sure seems self explantory. I would think that they didn't want to invest a lot of money in a pilot who wasn't giving them 100%.

All a statment of intent is to ensure one's commitment to the Guard. They have certain requirments to fulfull this, which is laid out in the statement:

...upon successful completion of pilot training plan to return to my unit and fulfill

my obligation to the upmost of my ability. I have applied for pilot training with the

goal of making flying a lifetime pursuit and I believe I can best accomplish this to my

own satisfaction by serving as a member of the Air National Guard as long as possible.

"..upon successful completion of pilot training plan.."
records show he did that.

"plan to return to my unit and fulfill my obligation to the upmost of my ability."
Which he did. Records confirm that was well.

"I have applied for pilot training with the goal of making flying a lifetime pursuit"
A goal which he kept. He pursued it and accomplished it.

"I believe I can best accomplish this to my own satisfaction by serving as a member of
the Air National Guard as long as possible."
And he did and got an honorable discharge.

I agree I would expect anyone going into the ANG to give it 100%. Question is: how to prove what a person's intent is? The only person who knows is GWB. Bush held up his end of the bargin. The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Bush somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were shoved into non-flying desk jobs. Bush did not stop flying by choice.

I have a problem right here:

"plan to return to my unit and fulfill my obligation to the upmost of my ability."

I'm not convinced he did that. Not only did he not get his physical done, which I believe he should have done since he was a trained pilot, he shipped out before he had his transfer through. Then he can't come up with anybody from the Alabama ANG to cnfirm he was there doing his drills. Not even one person?? Come on!! The Alabama ANG has a $1000 reward to anyone who can come forward and prove he was there. No one even remembers him!! You just aren't going to convince me he was doing his drills.

On top of that, it appears he didn't report back in at the TxANG unit when he got back either. I don't care what his paperwork says. Paperwork can be rigged. I like more solid evidence and I don't see any yet. You can claim the records say this, but I need more collaboration of evidence then that. I would even go so far to say that the preponderance of available evidence is against him.

To sum it up, it looks like a case of "Easy come, easy go" to me.
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
I guess I misspoke. The drug test were not mandatory, they were random.


Why would a physical exam present a problem for 1st Lt. Bush? A little-know fact reported in the London Times and the New York Post on June 18, 2000 gives a powerful clue. In April 1972 ? the same month that Bush "gave up" flying ? all the overseas and stateside military services began subjecting a small random sample in their ranks to substance abuse testing for alcohol and drugs. The Pentagon had announced its intention to do so initially back on December 31, 1969. If Bush reported for his scheduled physical in August 1972, he could have been subject to selection for a random substance abuse test.

Bush's spokesman told the London Times that Bush "was not aware of any changes that required a drug test." But this does not hold up under scrutiny. In 1969 ? the year following Bush's enlistment ? the Pentagon notified every unit in the military that it would implement random drug testing at some point in the near future. When that moment arrived ? April 1972 ? every enlisted person and officer throughout the military, both overseas and stateside, would have been aware of this dramatic change. After all, the whole purpose of the random drug testing was to make it absolutely clear to everyone in the Armed Forces that the Pentagon would not tolerate substance abuse of any kind by anyone.

There is circumstantial evidence pointing to substance abuse by Bush during this period. On the campaign trail, Bush has stated that he has not used drugs or alcohol in excess since 1974. But this chronology makes it possible that he was in fact abusing one or more of these substances in the summer of 1972.

Moreover, interviews with friends during this period reveal that Bush partied and drank regularly, and Bush admits he was a hard drinker at the time. And over the Christmas holidays, Bush got into a widely-reported emotional showdown with his father after taking his 16-year-old brother Marvin drinking, hitting garbage cans while driving home.

Thus, the September 29 memo is a "smoking jet" which points to a potentially devastating interpretation: that Bush stopped flying two years short of his obligation because of substance abuse ? either directly, because he failed his physical exam, or indirectly, because he refused to take it out of fear that he would fail it.

Is it unreasonable to raise the possibility that 1st Lt. Bush was suspended from flying as a direct or indirect consequence of substance abuse? It might be if there was no way for Bush to prove his innocence. But George W. Bush can readily defend himself, if he so chooses, simply by voluntarily releasing his complete military record.
LINKY

Random Testing. By regulation, each military member must be tested at least once per year. Reserve members must be tested at least once every two years. This is done by means of "random testing." Basically, a commander can order that either all or a random-selected sample of his/her unit be tested, at any time. Results of random testing can be used in court-martials (Under Article 1128a of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), article 15s (nonjudicial punishment), and involuntary discharges. This includes using the results to determine service characterization (honorable, general, or other-than-honorable). Members do not have the right to refuse random testing. However, commanders cannot order specific individuals to take a "random" test. Those selected must be truly "random."
LINKY


Now if you will expalin to me what your interpertation (and the ANG of the time period) is of what the "Statement of Intent" means I would appreciate it. To me it sure seems self explantory. I would think that they didn't want to invest a lot of money in a pilot who wasn't giving them 100%.

All a statment of intent is to ensure one's commitment to the Guard. They have certain requirments to fulfull this, which is laid out in the statement:

...upon successful completion of pilot training plan to return to my unit and fulfill

my obligation to the upmost of my ability. I have applied for pilot training with the

goal of making flying a lifetime pursuit and I believe I can best accomplish this to my

own satisfaction by serving as a member of the Air National Guard as long as possible.

"..upon successful completion of pilot training plan.."
records show he did that.

"plan to return to my unit and fulfill my obligation to the upmost of my ability."
Which he did. Records confirm that was well.

"I have applied for pilot training with the goal of making flying a lifetime pursuit"
A goal which he kept. He pursued it and accomplished it.

"I believe I can best accomplish this to my own satisfaction by serving as a member of
the Air National Guard as long as possible."
And he did and got an honorable discharge.

I agree I would expect anyone going into the ANG to give it 100%. Question is: how to prove what a person's intent is? The only person who knows is GWB. Bush held up his end of the bargin. The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Bush somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were shoved into non-flying desk jobs. Bush did not stop flying by choice.

I have a problem right here:

"plan to return to my unit and fulfill my obligation to the upmost of my ability."

I'm not convinced he did that. Not only did he not get his physical done, which I believe he should have done since he was a trained pilot, he shipped out before he had his transfer through. Then he can't come up with anybody from the Alabama ANG to cnfirm he was there doing his drills. Not even one person?? Come on!! The Alabama ANG has a $1000 reward to anyone who can come forward and prove he was there. No one even remembers him!! You just aren't going to convince me he was doing his drills.

On top of that, it appears he didn't report back in at the TxANG unit when he got back either. I don't care what his paperwork says. Paperwork can be rigged. I like more solid evidence and I don't see any yet. You can claim the records say this, but I need more collaboration of evidence then that. I would even go so far to say that the preponderance of available evidence is against him.

To sum it up, it looks like a case of "Easy come, easy go" to me.

"Not only did he not get his physical done, which I believe he should have done since he was a trained pilot, he shipped out before he had his transfer through."

If you think thats wrong, thats your problem. The Air National Guard sees no problem in this, so why should you?

"On top of that, it appears he didn't report back in at the TxANG unit when he got back either."
Support that.

"I don't care what his paperwork says. Paperwork can be rigged."
Facts be damned! I don't think anything will satisify you.

Witness He won't get the reward. IMO Just because no one has come forward means sh!t. The 187th had 800 members. Who is going to remember some temporary transferee from 30 years ago?

The only thing you have to go on is that no one remembers he was there.

I was in a unit about the same size of the 187th Tac Recon Gp in Alabama. Other than the people in my crew and a few others I hardly remember anyone. And that was 15 years ago.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Well CaptainGoodnight, I just got done watching 60 Minutes. It seems Bush was ORDERED to take his physical by his commanding officer and didn't do it. He was grounded not only for that, but for unstisfactory preformance. Why didn't he just take the physical?? Was that too much too ask after spending millions on training him? And why did he talk to his commading officer about how to get out of drills?

I have to say that not obeying direct orders isn't exactly putting in a 100% effort on his part, wouldn't you? I defintely see that as a violation of his Statment of Intent. What about wanting to find ways to get out of his drills? Maybe his records are false and there is a reason why no one from the Alabama ANG saw him. If I were a military man and had a politicaly connected person under my command that I'd be worried about putting my carrer and pension in jeporady over some damn paperwork.

I can't say I'm a bit surprised. I don't think GWB took the ANG serious. It was just a way to get out of being drafted to him. Once the war started to taper off, he didn't even feel he should even have to go to drills. I wouldn't be surprised if more things come out now that it is positively clear that the "whole" story isn't out. In any case, any Vietnam vet should think twice before voting for GWB. The double standard was alive and well then and still is now. Look how well it works for the Bush's.

I think you have not done any research on your own and you're just spoon fled what some crazy hack off an internet site believes. You talking about a "mandatory drug test" is a bunch of crap. If you did do some research you would be able to see that. You should really quit before you make a bigger idiot out of yourself.

I've admitted that a I made a honest mistake on the "mandatory" drug testing. You never acknowledged to me that there was a random drug testing in effect while lamblasting my intelligence and calling me names. If you know so much why didn't you point that out?? Perhaps your the one getting your info off some crazy hack internet site?

I do expect an apology for the name calling.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Not only did he not get his physical done, which I believe he should have done since he was a trained pilot, he shipped out before he had his transfer through."

If you think thats wrong, thats your problem. The Air National Guard sees no problem in this, so why should you?

"On top of that, it appears he didn't report back in at the TxANG unit when he got back either."
Support that.

"I don't care what his paperwork says. Paperwork can be rigged."
Facts be damned! I don't think anything will satisify you.

Witness He won't get the reward. IMO Just because no one has come forward means sh!t. The 187th had 800 members. Who is going to remember some temporary transferee from 30 years ago?

The only thing you have to go on is that no one remembers he was there.

I was in a unit about the same size of the 187th Tac Recon Gp in Alabama. Other than the people in my crew and a few others I hardly remember anyone. And that was 15 years ago.[q/]

I'm done arguing with you. Apparently nothing will satisfy you either. GWB was AWOL
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
You have been asking for HARD evidence that he was not AWOL but fail to provide ANY evidence he was.

"You never acknowledged to me that there was a random drug testing in effect"

I never claimed it was not. But I do know it was only for those under a certain age.

"It seems Bush was ORDERED to take his physical by his commanding officer and didn't do it."

Support that.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
You have been asking for HARD evidence that he was not AWOL but fail to provide ANY evidence he was.

"You never acknowledged to me that there was a random drug testing in effect"

I never claimed it was not. But I do know it was only for those under a certain age.

Support that claim please I don't beleive that's the way it was in 1972

"It seems Bush was ORDERED to take his physical by his commanding officer and didn't do it."

Support that.

I just saw the documents on 60 minutes. It will have to wait until some kind of transcript is available. They were newly released documents by the goverment and supported by personal records of his commanding officer.

Edit: Here it is I think, haven't looked at it all yet

60 Minutes transcript Sept 8th
 

CaptainGoodnight

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2000
1,427
30
91
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
You have been asking for HARD evidence that he was not AWOL but fail to provide ANY evidence he was.

"You never acknowledged to me that there was a random drug testing in effect"

I never claimed it was not. But I do know it was only for those under a certain age.

Support that claim please I don't beleive that's the way it was in 1972

"It seems Bush was ORDERED to take his physical by his commanding officer and didn't do it."

Support that.

I just saw the documents on 60 minutes. It will have to wait until some kind of transcript is available. They were newly released documents by the goverment and supported by personal records of his commanding officer.

Let me tell you something. In any branch of service, disobeying orders is a very serious offence. You obey or you don't, if you don't you pay. Anyone who is so flagrant about violating a direct order, Lt. Bush's C/O would have had him by his nuts. Period.

Altas nothing happend.

If he HAD been ordered yes it would have been serious. But no such orders were made.
 
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