Bush where was he?

[Harvey]

At the risk of repeting any earlier posts I missed, I find this quote from Chris Matthews Hardball interesting:

... it was the White House ? not Kerry?s campaign ? that distributed four memos from 1972 and 1973 from Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, now deceased, who was the commander of the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in Houston where Bush served. The White House obtained the memos from CBS News, which said it was convinced of their authenticity, and the White House did not question their accuracy. There was no explanation why the Pentagon was unable to find the documents on its own.

If the documents are fake, it lays the entire matter of why they even exist in the lap of Carl Rove and the Bushwhackos. :shocked:

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Harvey
At the risk of repeting any earlier posts I missed, I find this quote from Chris Matthews Hardball interesting:

... it was the White House ? not Kerry?s campaign ? that distributed four memos from 1972 and 1973 from Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, now deceased, who was the commander of the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in Houston where Bush served. The White House obtained the memos from CBS News, which said it was convinced of their authenticity, and the White House did not question their accuracy. There was no explanation why the Pentagon was unable to find the documents on its own.

If the documents are fake, it lays the entire matter of why they even exist in the lap of Carl Rove and the Bushwhackos. :shocked:

There's a very simple explanation why the Pentagon was unable to find the documents on their own:

1) They were allegedly from Killian's personal files. The Pentagon does not retain such documents in their records.

2) According to Killian's son, who worked with his father in the ANG, his father kept no such personal files.

How could the Pentagon supply files they never retained, from files that supposedly never even existed in the first place?

Some of the media are glossing over the easy questions and ignoring the tough questions wholesale in this matter.

And if these documents did come from Rove, then CBS or Rather should come out and say so. Supposedly they were circulating among the Kerry campaign before CBS even received them and then the Kerry campaign came out immediately damning Bush after the 60 Minutes report. Hmmm. Tell us where they came from CBS. Why are they squelching an investigation and why aren't they being forthwith about their source?

Normally the anti-Bushies would be all bent out of shape about this kind of cover-up and they'd be screaming for blood. All they seem to be doing now is issuing apologisms and diversionist statements. Sure is fun watching them squirm though.

 

[heartsurgeon]

If the documents are fake, it lays the entire matter of why they even exist in the lap of Carl Rove and the Bushwhackos.

This is the most fantastical, tinfoil hatted, moronic line of reasoning (i use that term allegorically), that many liberals seem to embrace.

CBS news and Dan Rather (a rabid liberal, who helped his daughter, Robin Rather is a prominent Texas Democrat, raise money at a $1000/plate fundraising dinner attended by Ben Barnes), interview Ben Barnes (who has personally contributed close to $400,000 to Sen. Kerry's campaigns) about favors done for GWB, which GWB never asked for. Mentioned as corroborating data are "memos" that appear out of nowhere, that are attributed to a dead man (some of which bear no signature), and whose provenance is highly suspect (the family has never seen these, and nobody else who knows the deceased believes he "wrote" them).

OK, just take a step back and answer which of the following statements seems plausible....

Karl Rove somehow slipped Ben Barnes and Dan Rather fake documents, arranged for "experts" to confirm that they were real, got Rather to interview Barnes on TV, and then planned to "expose" all of them as liars after they released the fakes (which by the way, just happen to coincide with the personal information that Ben Barnes brought to the interview by himself.)

or

Ben Barnes made it up, then told his personal buddy Dan Rather to interview him about some "dirt" he cooked up.

ever hear of Occam's Razor.....
here is an example..

 

[maluckey]

I'll add that MOST Unit Files are either destroyed, or given to the shredder when the soldier leaves that unit. It would almost impossible for he Pentagon to have located ANY files from the unit, other than PT Scores, OER's, Medical Records and the like. That's all the files that the Army keeps when you ETS.

Unit Commanders would certainly not be keeping files on a person that have already been discharged. They have enough to worry about without cluttering their office with the thousands of pages that would be required to keep such documents around for the hundreds of soldeirs that were either discharged, or transferred under their watch.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: maluckey
I'll add that MOST Unit Files are either destroyed, or given to the shredder when the soldier leaves that unit. It would almost impossible for he Pentagon to have located ANY files from the unit, other than PT Scores, OER's, Medical Records and the like. That's all the files that the Army keeps when you ETS.

Unit Commanders would certainly not be keeping files on a person that have already been discharged. They have enough to worry about without cluttering their office with the thousands of pages that would be required to keep such documents around for the hundreds of soldeirs that were either discharged, or transferred under their watch.

Yeah, most local personnel files are destroyed when the servicemember PCS's.

I'll tell you what might be located though: the unit property books and document registries. You're a vet. Now think about it for one moment. The supply records, if still around, would indicate the office equipment assigned to the unit at the time. While individual personnel files are discarded on a local level, supply records are maintained for years.

A couple vets I know here in Austin are toying with the idea of filing an FOIA request with the state NG bureau. If the Ellington AFB property books can be located, then this may shed some light on which typewriters were in use by the unit at the time.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
ever hear of Occam's Razor.....
here is an example..

OK. Let's pursue that, but first, let's discard your logically challenged hypotheses and deal with the real world possiblities. I still don't know whether these memos are genuine or fakes, but assuming they are, and following the chain of custody, the four memos were reported to have been provided by the Whitehouse, along with other documents they previously claimed didn't exist. That means there are at least two equally plausible explanations for why they were in Lt. Col. Jerry Killian's personal notes. Considering them in sequence:

1. Someone from the Whitehouse had the first opportunity to create false documentation and include it in what they released as a trap to embarrass whoever found them and exposed them, either as news or for for political purposes.

2. Someone at CBS with enough intelligence to work at an upper level in the news operation created the documents.

Then, whoever did it was foolish enough to do it on a computer, instead of a typewriter of the appropriate make and vintage, which is still easily obtained from a used office equipment outlet, if not from a local pawn shop.

Then, this same person was able to fool a lot of other intelligent people whose integrity, along with the credibility of an entire major news organization, would be publically shattered if they knowningly went along with the gag and were discovered.

Occam's razor states that the simplest explanation that fits the facts is the one most likely to be correct. In the first case, it took only the creation of the forged document. In the second, it took the creation of the document, really stupid mistakes by presumably intelligent people, and the knowing participation of other intelligent people, all of whom were willing to risk high paying jobs, along with public humiliation.

None of this proves what the truth is about the documents, but it once again highlights your own logical imparement.

 

[burnedout]

ever hear of Occam's Razor.....

Speaking of Occam's Razor, Dr. Joseph M. Newcomer, a computer typography expert and pioneer, provides his professional opinion in a lengthy piece:

The Bush "Guard memos" are forgeries!

[...]

So we have the following two hypotheses contending for describing the memos

* Attempts to recreate the memos using Microsoft Word and Times New Roman produce images so close that even taking into account the fact that the image we were able to download from the CBS site has been copied, scanned, downloaded, and reprinted, the errors between the "authentic" document and a file created by anyone using Microsoft word are virtually indistinguishable.

* The font existed in 1972; there were technologies in 1972 that could, with elaborate effort, reproduce these memos, and these technologies and the skills to use them were used by someone who, by testimony of his own family, never typed anything, in an office that for all its other documents appears to have used ordinary monospaced typewriters, and therefore this unlikely juxtaposition of technologies and location coincided just long enough to produce these four memos on 04-May-1972, 18-May-1972, 01-August-1972, and 18-August-1973.

Which one do you think is true? Which one would a 13th-century philosopher think made sense?. . . .

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Where else are you going to find talk radio Bozack? The FM dial? How many millions of listeners does Rush have? 20Mil+? How many millions listen to Hannity? In fact my words were "..there are plenty of conservative voices out there in (the) media..." And there are.

Woo hoo, 20 whole million out of the current 294,255,183 that currently reside in the US, sorry if I think that 20 million is a piss in the woods, also how much you want to bet that Rush and Hannity share alot of the same listeners so quoting seperate ratings figures seems a little skewed don't ya think? Again AM radio is for the most part dead when compared to FM and TV Broadcast.

Way to put words in my mouth. :roll:

Then deny it? all you did was bitch about me jumping to a conclusion (Maybe I should make a board game) but didn't say that I wasn't right in my "guess"...I still think you and Harv would feel the media is much more "fair and balanced" with Rush, Hannity, Fox, the WSJ, the Wash Times and the other handfull of conservative media eradicated from the face of the planet, then things will be "just right" for you guys....what a joke.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
ever hear of Occam's Razor.....
here is an example..

OK. Let's pursue that, but first, let's discard your logically challenged hypotheses and deal with the real world possiblities. I still don't know whether these memos are genuine or fakes, but assuming they are, and following the chain of custody, the four memos were reported to have been provided by the Whitehouse, along with other documents they previously claimed didn't exist. That means there are at least two equally plausible explanations for why they were in Lt. Col. Jerry Killian's personal notes. Considering them in sequence:

1. Someone from the Whitehouse had the first opportunity to create false documentation and include it in what they released as a trap to embarrass whoever found them and exposed them, either as news or for for political purposes.

2. Someone at CBS with enough intelligence to work at an upper level in the news operation created the documents.

Then, whoever did it was foolish enough to do it on a computer, instead of a typewriter of the appropriate make and vintage, which is still easily obtained from a used office equipment outlet, if not from a local pawn shop.

Then, this same person was able to fool a lot of other intelligent people whose integrity, along with the credibility of an entire major news organization, would be publically shattered if they knowningly went along with the gag and were discovered.

Occam's razor states that the simplest explanation that fits the facts is the one most likely to be correct. In the first case, it took only the creation of the forged document. In the second, it took the creation of the document, really stupid mistakes by presumably intelligent people, and the knowing participation of other intelligent people, all of whom were willing to risk high paying jobs, along with public humiliation.

None of this proves what the truth is about the documents, but it once again highlights your own logical imparement.

The memos from the White House were provided to the White House by CBS.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Where else are you going to find talk radio Bozack? The FM dial? How many millions of listeners does Rush have? 20Mil+? How many millions listen to Hannity? In fact my words were "..there are plenty of conservative voices out there in (the) media..." And there are.

Woo hoo, 20 whole million out of the current 294,255,183 that currently reside in the US, sorry if I think that 20 million is a piss in the woods, also how much you want to bet that Rush and Hannity share alot of the same listeners so quoting seperate ratings figures seems a little skewed don't ya think? Again AM radio is for the most part dead when compared to FM and TV Broadcast.

Dude, you're missing the point! Which is: You don't find talk radio on the FM dial. It's on AM. Futhermore, conservative radio has exponentially more listeners than liberal radio, which didn't even exist until a few months ago. Not to mention no one listens to it.

Way to put words in my mouth. :roll:

Then deny it? all you did was bitch about me jumping to a conclusion (Maybe I should make a board game) but didn't say that I wasn't right in my "guess"...I still think you and Harv would feel the media is much more "fair and balanced" with Rush, Hannity, Fox, the WSJ, the Wash Times and the other handfull of conservative media eradicated from the face of the planet, then things will be "just right" for you guys....what a joke.

No, I DO NOT think things would be better with "...conservative media eradicated from the face of the planet..." -- where in the world did you get that idea? In fact, I listen/watch conservative media quite a bit just to get a flavor for what the folks on the other side of the aisle are saying. Which is something I wonder if you do as well? Listen to Bill Maher or Al Franken lately? How about any Michael Moore movies? See any of those?

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Dude, you're missing the point! Which is: You don't find talk radio on the FM dial. It's on AM. Futhermore, conservative radio has exponentially more listeners than liberal radio, which didn't even exist until a few months ago. Not to mention no one listens to it.

LOL, this is too much...and somewhat OT but whatever I will humor it...

Have you ever listened to the DJs on FM radio, more specifically their news segments in the morning segments?? Virtually every radio program I have listened to here in NE, in Conn, In VA and in DC have all had rather liberal reporters on the FM programming, only one station in MA has a conservative host and the rest of his support team disagrees with him on a regular basis. As far as the AM dial is concerned like I said before AM is dead, so while you are right Conservative Talk radio rules AM the Fact is that for the majority of society tuning to the AM side isn't even a consideration...they all get their news from their local FM stations in the middle of hearing their goofy morning talkshows and on their ride home while listening to music.

No, I DO NOT think things would be better with "...conservative media eradicated from the face of the planet..." -- where in the world did you get that idea? In fact, I listen/watch conservative media quite a bit just to get a flavor for what the folks on the other side of the aisle are saying. Which is something I wonder if you do as well? Listen to Bill Maher or Al Franken lately? How about any Michael Moore movies? See any of those?

Then why bitch about it? Conservative media is so miniscule when compared to left/centrist media I fail to see why libs such as yourself are so vocal, personally I think there is a pretty darn good balance as it stands with Liberal media dominating virtually all aspects short of Talk radio, the conservative media is more vocal though which makes up...

With Bill Maher I listen as much as I can but Franken I tried to listen for a few minutes and the guy sucks so bad it was painful, he did some stupid parody or something and I almost tore my ears off it was so bad. As I have said in the past I always try to balance out my news listening/watching which is why I flip from Fox to CNN to local NBC, for Radio generally it is Jay Severin and then NPR...but I am not bitching that there is too much leftist media out there nor is there too little conservative media, only you guys are the ones who love to bitch.

 

[DealMonkey]

I'm not sure why you think I'm bitching about it because I'm not. About the only thing I said was that the conservative media was hammering this story like crazy. Which they are.

 

[maluckey]

Originally posted by: burnedout

I'll tell you what might be located though: the unit property books and document registries. You're a vet. Now think about it for one moment. The supply records, if still around, would indicate the office equipment assigned to the unit at the time. While individual personnel files are discarded on a local level, supply records are maintained for years.

A couple vets I know here in Austin are toying with the idea of filing an FOIA request with the state NG bureau. If the Ellington AFB property books can be located, then this may shed some light on which typewriters were in use by the unit at the time.

Good thinking!

I have seen Property Cards in a Line Unit that were over ten years old. Most Supplu Sgts are Anal Retentive about these things. One can only imagine how long they would be on file in an AGR unit....

Also, someone might check if Bush had any TA-50 gear. While it's not mandatory to have any, most soldiers use it rather than buying their own, and just DX it as it wears out. Even though I bought most of my own gear, I still used issue gear for the high wear-out stuff. It's a long shot because Bush had money, and didn't fly at the end, but who knows?

 

[heartsurgeon]

The memos from the White House were provided to the White House by CBS.

God forbid!! Don't confuse a liberal Bush-Hater with any facts...

they may recommend you be banned if you post any more inflammatory facts....

posting facts = trolling in this forum.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

The memos from the White House were provided to the White House by CBS.

God forbid!! Don't confuse a liberal Bush-Hater with any facts...

they may recommend you be banned if you post any more inflammatory facts....

posting facts = trolling in this forum.

Right. Because you have such a stellar track record of considering facts that don't match your agenda.




edit: fixed your broken bolding

 

[Harvey]

Ah! OK. I see that I did misread the original quote. Hope it doesn't shatter your illusions if I just cop to it and get back to the subject of the thread. Sorry about that.

If it really makes you feel better, you're welcome to report me to the mods for trolling.

Of course, considering your constant and flagrant disregard for the truth, and your dogged determination never to cop to it, even when you're proven dead wrong, it may take them awhile to get over laughing at your message, before they actually say something to me about it. :laugh:

 

[heartsurgeon]

edit: fixed your broken bolding

you old softie...
you care about me...

thanks.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

edit: fixed your broken bolding

you old softie...
you care about me...

thanks.

You know how it is with we "bleeding-heart liberals". We're always helping the disadvantaged.





edit: typo

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

The memos from the White House were provided to the White House by CBS.

God forbid!! Don't confuse a liberal Bush-Hater with any facts...

they may recommend you be banned if you post any more inflammatory facts....

posting facts = trolling in this forum.

What makes you think he wasn't already banned, HS? He is a great quoter for only having 5 posts

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The preponderance of evidence in this case is completely against CBS and Dan Rather. Their failure to open up an internal investigation makes one believe they have something to hide as well.

:thumbsup:

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: jahawkin
I hope all you typography experts can easily spot the differences here. Pretty easy huh??
In addition, can someone explain how a number of 'e's in the documents are much above the baseline?? How is that done in word??
You know, the documents could be fake, but then again they could be real. Does this change anything about the Bush desertion story?? The facts still remain the same - Bush fell short of his obligation (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/i...920/usnews/20guard.htm">link)</a>

I dont think anyone is denying that the composer could have created documents that were similar(Word still has more resolution). However, it is doubtfult that someone would have been using such a complex maching to type memos. It is also highly doubtful that this high end machine was available to the air national guard.

The ball head typewriters were availabel with special keys, weren't they? Isn't that what the IBM people said. All they needed was a "th" key and it would be as simple as a keystroke to type the "th". It would make sense that a goverment agency would have such a key on it. In any event, you can't prove the documents are false and CBS apparently can't prove they are genuine so we are back to where we were before the release of the documents. Did GWB fullfill his service commitment?? Did he earn his million dollars worth of training? It looks to me like he just flaked it off as soon as the Vietnem war started to wind down. What a ChickenHawk. His whole administration is full of ChickenHawks!! At least Kerry went to war and was in battle. I quote US News &amp; World Report:

Bush signed his commitment to the Texas Air National Guard on May 27, 1968, shortly after becoming eligible for the draft. In his "statement of understanding," he acknowledged that "satisfactory participation" included attending "48 scheduled inactive-duty training periods" each year. He also acknowledged that he could be ordered to active duty if he failed to meet these requirements.

Slump. Bush's records show that he did his duty for much of the first four years of his commitment. But as the Vietnam War wound down, his performance slumped, and his attendance at required drills fell off markedly. He did no drills for one five-month period in 1972. He also missed his flight physical. By May 2, 1973, his superiors said they could not evaluate his performance because he "has not been observed."

The service question

Why doesn't GWB just come out and declare the documents to be false? WHY?? Is he worried what documents might yet come to light?

The White House obtained the memos from CBS News, which said it was convinced of their authenticity, and the White House did not question their accuracy.

I find it ammusing that so many of you rightwingers are ready to call the documents false based on the "preponderance of evidence", yet you ignore the clear "preponderance of evidence" about GWB's service attendance and preformance!! After all,his attendance and preformance is what is in question here!!

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

The memos from the White House were provided to the White House by CBS.

God forbid!! Don't confuse a liberal Bush-Hater with any facts...

they may recommend you be banned if you post any more inflammatory facts....

posting facts = trolling in this forum.

the White House did not question their accuracy

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

The memos from the White House were provided to the White House by CBS.

God forbid!! Don't confuse a liberal Bush-Hater with any facts...

they may recommend you be banned if you post any more inflammatory facts....

posting facts = trolling in this forum.

What makes you think he wasn't already banned, HS? He is a great quoter for only having 5 posts

Testing 1...2...3

Nope, not banned yet. Still here.

I'm new to the Anandtech forums. While I did register long ago under another nick, I didn't post much, never posted in this forum, and my registration lapsed.

That said...

I still find it odd that CBS can so vociferously defend these memos as the real deal when they:

1) Never had the originals

2) Cannot produce the originals

3) Refuse to state from whom they received their copies

4) Have so many experts, even the ones they claimed were backing the memos, claiming they are more than likely forgeries

And their response is a vapid "Well, typewriters that were capable of creating such documents were available at that time." That's like saying "Of course Saddam had WMDs, because the capability existed."

Sheesh, that kind of response solves all of our problems and answers every lingernig question, doesn't it?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken


4) Have so many experts, even the ones they claimed were backing the memos, claiming they are more than likely forgeries

They're covering their asses, just like Killian was doing when he wrote the memo's. Just like the White House did when not questioning their accuracy, and just like GWB is doing by not publicly declaring the memo's false.

The preponderance of evidence is against GWB on this issue, and regardless of what you think, the issue is his ANG preformance and attendance.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken


4) Have so many experts, even the ones they claimed were backing the memos, claiming they are more than likely forgeries

They're covering their asses, just like Killian was doing when he wrote the memo's. Just like the White House did when not questioning their accuracy, and just like GWB is doing by not publicly declaring the memo's false.

The preponderance of evidence is against GWB on this issue, and regardless of what you think, the issue is his ANG preformance and attendance.

They are covering their asses by coming out and plainly stating they believe the memos that Killian allegedly wrote to be false, including his own son and wife?

And why should the White House or Bush question the accuracy of those memos? Think about it. What does it gain them strategically to do so? Why would they even want to give the appearance of driving this issue? By doing what they're doing, it makes them appear the victim in this case. It's really a smart move. Kerry's campaign should take some lessons on that point. And if Kerry's campaign is discovered to be behind the creation of these memos, assuming they are forged and it goes that far, Kerry can kiss his presidential aspirations goodbye and so long. If it's not too late already.

This ordeal is already going to cause a backlash in the media. Any new mudslinging that comes across the MSM's desk is going to be scrutinized severely before a move is made, or else it will just be ignored whoesale. Verification takes time, lot's of time. That effectively prevents the Kerry campaign from slinging mud in the press any further during this campaign since there's precious little time left. And, truthfully, mud-slinging was Kerry's only weapon. He's sure not making points on issues. That means his campiagn is neutered in the media. Because of that the Kerry campaign has lost, and it ironically enough it quite possibly may have been by their own hand.