Bush where was he?

[1EZduzit]

The Freedom of Information Center
Papers: Bush Piloted Guard Training Jets

By MATT KELLEY
Associated Press
September 10, 2004

WASHINGTON - After routinely piloting a fighter jet solo for most of his career, George W. Bush began flying a two-seat jet designed for training in the weeks just before the Texas Air National Guard stripped him of his pilot's privileges in 1972, flight logs show.

The logs indicate Bush did half of his final 21 flights in a training jet or simulator, and on four occasions he sat in the co-pilot's position after more than a year of commanding a single-seat F-102A fighter by himself.

The logs also show the future president was heavily focused at the end of his pilot time on flying by instruments - a skill he mastered during his initial training three years earlier with near-perfect scores of 97 and 98.

The White House said it cannot explain why Bush was using a training plane when he had risen to the rank of first lieutenant as a solo flyer of a fighter jet.

But officials noted the activities occurred in the spring of 1972 when Bush was trying to cram in extensive required flying time before he left the Guard for six months to work on a political campaign in Alabama.

"He did his training and was honorably discharged," White House spokesman Trent Duffy said.

The numerous trainer and simulator flights occurred at a period most heavily examined by Bush's political critics. They were among Bush's last visits to the cockpit before he refused a required pilot's physical and was stripped of his flying status after three years in the Air National Guard.

Before The Associated Press obtained the flight logs this week under the Freedom of Information Act and a related lawsuit, there was little detail about exactly how Bush performed as a pilot or what he did in the cockpit before he lost flying privileges.

Air Force experts who examined the records at the request of AP said the logs could reflect anything from problems in Bush's flight performance to a shortage of available fighter jets.

"Maybe he had a problem, but I wouldn't assume that. You can't tell," said retired Air Force Col. Leonard "Jack" Walls, a former flight instructor at an Alabama Air National Guard unit where Bush temporarily served.

The training officer who taught Bush how to fly his jet at the beginning of his career said he had no concerns about Bush's skills when he was certified. "I taught the guy and he is good," said retired Col. Maurice Udell.

For most of his National Guard career - more than 200 hours in the air - Bush flew solo in a one-seat F-102A fighter used to patrol the skies against any attacks from enemy aircraft.

However, the logs show Bush flew nine times in T-33 training jets and two more times on a simulator in February and March 1972 - nearly twice as many times as he had flown in training vehicles in the prior 18 months in the Guard.

In one week alone, he flew eight times in the T-33 training vehicle. On four of the trainer flights, Bush moved from primary pilot to co-pilot, the logs show.

The T-33 is designed to help train pilots early in their career, allowing for a more experienced pilot to sit behind a trainee before the trainee is permitted to fly solo in a single-pilot jet. Bush flew extensively in the T-33 during his pilot schooling at the beginning of his Guard career.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
....

However, the logs show Bush flew nine times in T-33 training jets and two more times on a simulator in February and March 1972 - nearly twice as many times as he had flown in training vehicles in the prior 18 months in the Guard.

In one week alone, he flew eight times in the T-33 training vehicle. On four of the trainer flights, Bush moved from primary pilot to co-pilot, the logs show.

The T-33 is designed to help train pilots early in their career, allowing for a more experienced pilot to sit behind a trainee before the trainee is permitted to fly solo in a single-pilot jet. Bush flew extensively in the T-33 during his pilot schooling at the beginning of his Guard career.

So what. So did I. So did thousands of others. And your beef is?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
And the sad thing is most of whats in this article has already been refuted in THIS thread.

NOT. Even. Close.

This whole circus about the authenticity of those three documents was staged to draw attention from the underlying, unrefuted facts:

• Bush pulled strings to dodge Vietnam service
• We blew $1 million training him
• He was grounded for reasons never really explained (though there is substantial indirect evidence it was due to increasingly poor performance and his drug use)
• Bush eventually abandoned his cushy Guard responsibilities, presumably because they were just too darn inconvenient for his self-indulgent lifestyle.

To suggest this has all been refuted is wishful thinking. The only reason Bush got out with an "honorable" discharge is his political connections.

"Bush pulled strings to dodge Vietnam service"
No one has ever been able to prove that.

"We blew $1 million training him"
How did we blow "$1 million" on training him? He had 337 hours of flight time, which is alot for a fighter pliot. One of the reasons he got an early out is because he fulfilled all his flying requirements in less then 6 years.

He signed a statement that flying was a lifetime goal to get into the ANG. That is why they spent a million dollars training him, not so he could avoid Vietnam and just quit flying when it suited him.

"He was grounded for reasons never really explained (though there is substantial indirect evidence it was due to increasingly poor performance and his drug use)"
He was never "grounded"
Last time Bush flew, as records show, was April of 1972. He was "suspended" in September of 1972. The physical is only mandatory if your going to fly. No big deal really. If they needed him to fly, he would just have to requalify and take the medical exam. The physical has to be done by a Flight Surgeon. A regular doctor won't do. Then there is the added problem of being in the Guard. Flight Surgeons aren't always available. Maybe once a month to give physicals. Why go though all the trouble if your on non-flight status?
The flight physicals are automatically scheduled so it's not like the Flight Surgeon wasn't available to do his physical. Bush's excuse was he was going to have his family docotor give him the physical and as you say it takes a specially trained doctor to give a phlight physical. Another lie. He signed the statement declaring that "flying is his lifetime goal" to get his million dollars worth of training. Another lie.

About the "mandatory drug test". The Air Force did not have "mandatory drug tests" until the 1980s, before that I believe only those under the age of 23 were tested. Bush was too old to be tested. I confirmed this other people who served in the USAF durning that time. (I served much later)

Where did he say mandatory? They're were random drug test being given. If his flight preformance was slipping, perhaps he was afraid that they would "randomly" select him. There were also specific questions that were asked of all pilots about drug use and avoiding the physical was his only option of not answering those questions.

"Bush eventually abandoned his cushy Guard responsibilities, presumably because they were just too darn inconvenient for his self-indulgent lifestyle."
If you check the 111th FIS records of 1970-72 and any other ANG squadron, you will find other pilots excused for career obligations and conflicts. The Bush excusal in 1972 was further facilitated by a change in the unit's mission, from an operational fighter squadron to a training squadron with a new airplane, the F-101, which required that more pilots be available for full-time instructor duty rather than part-time traditional reservists with outside employment.

The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Lt. Bush and me somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were shoved into nonflying desk jobs.

Did all these other pilots also skip their required physicals? Bush was "gaming" the system at the very least and quite possibly hiding something.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
....

However, the logs show Bush flew nine times in T-33 training jets and two more times on a simulator in February and March 1972 - nearly twice as many times as he had flown in training vehicles in the prior 18 months in the Guard.

In one week alone, he flew eight times in the T-33 training vehicle. On four of the trainer flights, Bush moved from primary pilot to co-pilot, the logs show.

The T-33 is designed to help train pilots early in their career, allowing for a more experienced pilot to sit behind a trainee before the trainee is permitted to fly solo in a single-pilot jet. Bush flew extensively in the T-33 during his pilot schooling at the beginning of his Guard career.

So what. So did I. So did thousands of others. And your beef is?

Why was a trained pilot flying second seat in a trainer? You weren't a pilot with a million dollars worth of traing invested in, so your experience is not the same. You always flew second seat.

 

[cquark]

Still Unreported: The Pay-off in Bush Air Guard Fix
Wednesday, September 15, 2004
by Greg Palast

In 1968, former Congressman George Herbert Walker Bush of Texas, fresh from voting to send other men?s sons to Vietnam, enlisted his own son in a very special affirmative action program, the ?champagne? unit of the Texas Air National Guard. There, Top Gun fighter pilot George Dubya was assigned the dangerous job of protecting Houston from Vietcong air attack.


This week, former Lt. Governor Ben Barnes of Texas 'fessed up to pulling the strings to keep Little George out of the jungle. "I got a young man named George W. Bush into the Texas Air Guard - and I'm ashamed."


THE $23 MILLION PAY-BACK

That?s far from the end of the story. In 1994, George W. Bush was elected governor of Texas by a whisker. By that time, Barnes had left office to become a big time corporate lobbyist. To an influence peddler like Barnes, having damning information on a sitting governor is worth its weight in gold ? or, more precisely, there?s a value in keeping the info secret.

Barnes appears to have made lucrative use of his knowledge of our President?s slithering out of the draft as a lever to protect a multi-billion dollar contract for a client. That's the information in a confidential letter buried deep in the files of the US Justice Department that fell into my hands at BBC television.

Here's what happened. Just after Bush's election, Barnes' client GTech Corp., due to allegations of corruption, was about to lose its license to print money: its contract to run the Texas state lottery. Barnes, says the Justice Department document, made a call to the newly elected governor's office and saved GTech's state contract.


The letter said, "Governor Bush ... made a deal with Ben Barnes not to rebid [the GTech lottery contract] because Barnes could confirm that Bush had lied during the '94 campaign."

In that close race, Bush denied the fix was in to keep him out of 'Nam, and the US media stopped asking questions. What did the victorious Governor Bush's office do for Barnes? According to the tipster, "Barnes agreed never to confirm the story [of the draft dodging] and the governor talked to the chair of the lottery two days later and she then agreed to support letting GTech keep the contract without a bid."

And so it came to pass that the governor's commission reversed itself and gave GTech the billion dollar deal without a bid.

The happy client paid Barnes, the keeper of Governor Bush?s secret, a fee of over $23 million. Barnes, not surprisingly, denies that Bush took care of his client in return for Barnes? silence. However, confronted with the evidence, the former Lt. Governor now admits to helping the young George stay out of Vietnam.

Take a look at the letter yourself - with information we confirmed with other sources - at http://www.gregpalast.com/ulf/...draftdodgeblanked.jpg).

The accusation is consistent with the known facts ... and it fingered Barnes before his corroborating confession. The information was confirmed to me when I first ran the story -- 60 Minutes take note -- five years ago in the Guardian.

Let's assume the accuser is wrong; Barnes never called. Even so, we have, at the least, something just as ugly: a Bush pay-back for favors done. Barnes scratches George's yellow-streaked back; George's Adminstration uses public funds on a stinky no-bid contract which enriches Barnes. This pattern of Governor, then President, Bush finding ways to pay back allies, donors, business partners and political helpers continues a family tradition. Pay-off or pay-back, it's darn disturbing.

And frankly, I don?t care if President Bush cowered and ran from Vietnam. I sure as hell didn?t volunteer ? but then, my daddy didn?t send someone else in my place. And I don?t march around aircraft carriers with parachute clips around my gonads talking about war and sacrifice.

More important, I haven't made any pay-outs to reward the silence of those who could change my image from war hero to war zero.



"Time Warner Won't Let Us Air This"

By the way: I first reported this story in 1999, including the evidence of payback, in The Observer of London. US media closed its eyes. Then I put the story on British television last year in the one-hour report, "Bush Family Fortunes." American networks turned down BBC's offer to run it in the USA. "Wonderful film," one executive told me, "but Time Warner is not going to let us put this on the air." However, US networks will take cash for advertisements calling Kerry a Vietnam coward.

The good news is, until Patriot Act 3 kicks in, they can't stop us selling the film to you directly. The updated version of "Bush Family Fortunes," with the full story you still can't see on your boob tube, will be released next month in DVD. See a preview at http://www.gregpalast.com/bff-dvd.htm


See a segment from the film regarding the Draft Dodge http://www.gregpalast.com/images/TrailerClips.mov

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
....

However, the logs show Bush flew nine times in T-33 training jets and two more times on a simulator in February and March 1972 - nearly twice as many times as he had flown in training vehicles in the prior 18 months in the Guard.

In one week alone, he flew eight times in the T-33 training vehicle. On four of the trainer flights, Bush moved from primary pilot to co-pilot, the logs show.

The T-33 is designed to help train pilots early in their career, allowing for a more experienced pilot to sit behind a trainee before the trainee is permitted to fly solo in a single-pilot jet. Bush flew extensively in the T-33 during his pilot schooling at the beginning of his Guard career.

So what. So did I. So did thousands of others. And your beef is?

Why was a trained pilot flying second seat in a trainer? You weren't a pilot with a million dollars worth of traing invested in, so your experience is not the same. You always flew second seat.

Your right my experience is not the same. I flew in B-52's, I logged about 700 hours. There could have been any number of reasons he flew second seat. None of them throws up any red flags.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
There could have been any number of reasons he flew second seat. None of them throws up any red flags.

I beg to disagree. I point to the 3 people who were there at the time and have stated that they agree with the CONTENT of the discredited memos. There are just too many unanswered questions to draw a solid conclusion. That is why GWB should go on record as to the validity of said CONTENT. He refuses to take up the challenge, which sticks in my craw. To me GWB is just hiding behind a piece of paper that says he recieved an honorable discharge. That isn't a very good defense against allegations that he had preferential treatment, because if he did, naturally he got a honorable discharge. He needs to address the charges directly.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You are obviously believing your own propoganda.

Bush didn't meet his Guard obligations

Buahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! Irony at it's finest.

Good to see you found the right thread though.

CsG

And the sad thing is most of whats in this article has already been refuted in THIS thread.

A review of the regulations governing Bush's Guard service during the Vietnam War shows that the White House used an inappropriate--and less stringent--Air Force standard in determining that he had fulfilled his duty. Because Bush signed a six-year "military service obligation," he was required to attend at least 44 inactive-duty training drills each fiscal year beginning July 1. But Bush's own records show that he fell short of that requirement, attending only 36 drills in the 1972-73 period, and only 12 in the 1973-74 period. The White House has said that Bush's service should be calculated using 12-month periods beginning on his induction date in May 1968. Using this time frame, however, Bush still fails the Air Force obligation standard.

Moreover, White House officials say, Bush should be judged on whether he attended enough drills to count toward retirement. They say he accumulated sufficient points under this grading system. Yet, even using their method, which some military experts say is incorrect, U.S. News 's analysis shows that Bush once again fell short. His military records reveal that he failed to attend enough active-duty training and weekend drills to gain the 50 points necessary to count his final year toward retirement.

The U.S. News analysis also showed that during the final two years of his obligation, Bush did not comply with Air Force regulations that impose a time limit on making up missed drills. What's more, he apparently never made up five months of drills he missed in 1972, contrary to assertions by the administration. White House officials did not respond to the analysis last week but emphasized that Bush had "served honorably."

Some experts say they remain mystified as to how Bush obtained an honorable discharge. Lawrence Korb, a former top Defense Department official in the Reagan administration, says the military records clearly show that Bush "had not fulfilled his obligation" and "should have been called to active duty."



The service question

 

[MOHO456]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: MOHO456
I suppose the one that blew up on a us convoy filled with inert serin was a gag? And While I stand by the claim that there is WMD in Iraq, we will never find them in the stockpiles one suggests. If you dont want a pile of gold to be found, isnt it easier just to scatter it to the 4 winds, placing it in places surrounded by similar looking but false ones?

The more scattered they are would mean a greater chance of finding more WMD's. Are you trying to suggest that Iraq was a credible threat to the USA?? If you are then you are just another crazy NeoCon.

And what does that make you? Another insane conspiracy theorist? GWB won the election fare and square. You got issues, go to another country.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: MOHO456

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: MOHO456
I suppose the one that blew up on a us convoy filled with inert serin was a gag? And While I stand by the claim that there is WMD in Iraq, we will never find them in the stockpiles one suggests. If you dont want a pile of gold to be found, isnt it easier just to scatter it to the 4 winds, placing it in places surrounded by similar looking but false ones?

The more scattered they are would mean a greater chance of finding more WMD's. Are you trying to suggest that Iraq was a credible threat to the USA?? If you are then you are just another crazy NeoCon.

And what does that make you? Another insane conspiracy theorist? GWB won the election fare and square. You got issues, go to another country.

You first NeoCon. Go find the big cache of WMD's and nukes that Iraq was threatening us with. Good luck, your gonna need it.

 

[MOHO456]

Yeah, in a country the size of california and 10000 troops on the ground, I'll need a shitload of it. You have nothing better to do than further your collectivist agenda. I am no NeoCon. I am a good old fasioned conservative. You jokers that pin all this garbage on hte president in a desperate attempt to change the minds of the people are the ones that need the luck. Spew your garbage elsewhere.

 

[Steeplerot]

Bush put this "garbage" on himself.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: MOHO456
Yeah, in a country the size of california and 10000 troops on the ground, I'll need a shitload of it. You have nothing better to do than further your collectivist agenda. I am no NeoCon. I am a good old fasioned conservative. You jokers that pin all this garbage on hte president in a desperate attempt to change the minds of the people are the ones that need the luck. Spew your garbage elsewhere.

Go find them or shut up.

"Actually, as a timely leak from the C.I.A.?s Iraq Survey Group reiterated last week, Mr. Hussein had no "weapons of mass destruction" and no way to manufacture such weapons in meaningful amounts. That isn?t Democratic propaganda, or an outtake from a Michael Moore movie. It is merely factual information, gathered over many months by Mr. Bush?s own appointees, that explodes any justification for war."

Republican Senators tell unpleasant truths

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: MOHO456
I suppose the one that blew up on a us convoy filled with inert serin was a gag? And While I stand by the claim that there is WMD in Iraq, we will never find them in the stockpiles one suggests. If you dont want a pile of gold to be found, isnt it easier just to scatter it to the 4 winds, placing it in places surrounded by similar looking but false ones?

Now you're changing the subject. That one was real, albeit too decrepit to pose any significant threat. It has nothing to do with the "10-12+" you claimed were also real. As I said in the first place, that turned out to be Yet Another False Alarm. (Does that make it a YABA YAFA? )

Rather had the integrity to acknowledge his mistake. Do you?

Thought not.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight
There could have been any number of reasons he flew second seat. None of them throws up any red flags.

I beg to disagree. I point to the 3 people who were there at the time and have stated that they agree with the CONTENT of the discredited memos. There are just too many unanswered questions to draw a solid conclusion. That is why GWB should go on record as to the validity of said CONTENT. He refuses to take up the challenge, which sticks in my craw. To me GWB is just hiding behind a piece of paper that says he recieved an honorable discharge. That isn't a very good defense against allegations that he had preferential treatment, because if he did, naturally he got a honorable discharge. He needs to address the charges directly.

You're putting words in my mouth. Remember we were talking about Bush flying second seat. Not the memos.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: CaptainGoodnight

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You are obviously believing your own propoganda.

Bush didn't meet his Guard obligations

Buahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!! Irony at it's finest.

Good to see you found the right thread though.

CsG

And the sad thing is most of whats in this article has already been refuted in THIS thread.

A review of the regulations governing Bush's Guard service during the Vietnam War shows that the White House used an inappropriate--and less stringent--Air Force standard in determining that he had fulfilled his duty. Because Bush signed a six-year "military service obligation," he was required to attend at least 44 inactive-duty training drills each fiscal year beginning July 1. But Bush's own records show that he fell short of that requirement, attending only 36 drills in the 1972-73 period, and only 12 in the 1973-74 period. The White House has said that Bush's service should be calculated using 12-month periods beginning on his induction date in May 1968. Using this time frame, however, Bush still fails the Air Force obligation standard.

Moreover, White House officials say, Bush should be judged on whether he attended enough drills to count toward retirement. They say he accumulated sufficient points under this grading system. Yet, even using their method, which some military experts say is incorrect, U.S. News 's analysis shows that Bush once again fell short. His military records reveal that he failed to attend enough active-duty training and weekend drills to gain the 50 points necessary to count his final year toward retirement.

The U.S. News analysis also showed that during the final two years of his obligation, Bush did not comply with Air Force regulations that impose a time limit on making up missed drills. What's more, he apparently never made up five months of drills he missed in 1972, contrary to assertions by the administration. White House officials did not respond to the analysis last week but emphasized that Bush had "served honorably."

Some experts say they remain mystified as to how Bush obtained an honorable discharge. Lawrence Korb, a former top Defense Department official in the Reagan administration, says the military records clearly show that Bush "had not fulfilled his obligation" and "should have been called to active duty."



The service question

Let me explain how the Guard works. Again.

Let me explain the Guard point system and how this ties into payroll records. I served in active duty and was never in the reserves but I know they have the sort of flexibility that the active duty folks never had. The key thing in the reserves is to get a "good year", which is defined as getting 50 retirement points in that anniversary year (based on your pay entry base date). Points are earned for active duty (1 point per day) or inactive duty (1 point per 4 hours with a maximum of 2 points per day). Inactive duty points are awarded for drills, whether paid drills or unpaid drills, for completing correspondence courses, or for other approved projects.
If you can belong to an active reserve unit and get paid for your drills, that's really great. I had a friend do bunch of that, but he also did a bunch of drilling for what the Marines called a Mobilization Training Unit (MTU), formerly called a VTU (Volunteer Training Unit) which drills for points but no pay. In either type of unit, there are scheduled drills. If you miss a scheduled drill, you can make up the drill. Ideally, if you are going to miss a drill, you let the unit know in advance, but most reserve units are really flexible, especially for the officers, and if something comes up at the last minute, you can usually slide by even if you don't let the unit know in advance. It all depends on the unit. Frequently you can perform drills in advance and therefore not have to show up for the scheduled drill.

Some drilling reservists have very flexible "scheduled" drills, i.e., they can drill almost whenever they feel like it as long as the project they are working on gets completed when it is supposed to.

I looked at Bush's drill history, which has been floating around on the Internet for a couple of years, and I fail to see what the fuss is about. he earned 4 points in October 72 and 8 points in November of 72, which carried him through December, since you should average 4 points per month or 48 per year. (That's 4 points per month times 12 months.)

[Digression here. You also earn 15 points per year just for belonging to the active reserves or individual ready reserves. Add the 15 to the 48 and you have 63 points for the year. Guess what? You can only credit 60 inactive duty points per year towards retirement. That means that the average reservist is wasting points that count towards retirement. Couple that with the fact that only 50 points are needed for a good year, and the clear implication is that reservists are expected to miss at least some of their drills. Which is actually the case--I forget what percent attendance individual reservists are supposed to meet, and I forget what percent of total unit attendance units are supposed to meet, but I can guarantee that it is not 100%. End digression.]

Bush then earned 6 points twice in January 73, which equals 12, which is equivalent to 3 months, which carried him through March, so lo and behold, he drilled again in April, earning 4 points. Then in May, he drilled 4 times, earning 3, 3, 4, and 3 points respectively, or 13 points total. That carried him through July 73. Bush got good years for both 1972 and 1973, and left the service with an honorable discharge. That means he did what he was supposed to.

So what I see is an entirely normal drilling record for a reservist who, like so many of them, is holding down two or three careers at a time (counting the military as one of them).

So what is all the fuss about? Darned if I know. Remember, this was a time when new Army officers who had made life-changing decisions to join the Army after college were being discharged right out after finishing up their basic schools and being commissioned as 2/LT's because the Army had too many officers. Vietnam was winding way down. At that time, there were NO, repeat NO, ground troops permanently stationed in Vietnam, but Marine air, Navy air, and the Air Force were actively supporting the Vietnamese ground campaigns. And the Army must have provided aviation support to the Vietnamese, but they weren't being coordinated by the 7th/9th Air Force. The point being that LT's were a dime a dozen, with more reservists AND active duty types wanting to fly that there were flying billets available for them. If LT Bush, who had already been flying as part of the national air defense mission for 3 years, wanted to step down, that was no big deal because there were hundreds who wanted to take his place.

Again, I found nothing, absolutely nothing, in Bush's records that looked out of the ordinary.

 

[1EZduzit]

My understanding is that at the time 50 points are required without the 15 retirement points. Also, at the time the drills could only be mnade up 15 days before or 30 dys after when they were scheduled.

I also still have reservations about his missed flight physical. He was flying until late April and his physical was scheduled for May 15th. I feel he should have gotten it, after all the taxpayers had a million dollars invested in him and he was still a part of the unit. He still could have not flown if they had an abundance of pilots. It would be interesting to know how many pilots they actually had at the time.

The war was winding down and I understand that. I just don't agree with the way GWB just walked away from it as soon as it was "safe" to do so.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
My understanding is that at the time 50 points are required without the 15 retirement points. Also, at the time the drills could only be mnade up 15 days before or 30 dys after when they were scheduled.

I also still have reservations about his missed flight physical. He was flying until late April and his physical was scheduled for May 15th. I feel he should have gotten it, after all the taxpayers had a million dollars invested in him and he was still a part of the unit. He still could have not flown if they had an abundance of pilots. It would be interesting to know how many pilots they actually had at the time.

The war was winding down and I understand that. I just don't agree with the way GWB just walked away from it as soon as it was "safe" to do so.

I am pretty sure the 15pts count. I can ask my friend in the Guard. I am going on what was explained to me when I was thinking about going into the Guard after the Air Force.

Your right in the Air Force there is really no excuse NOT to take the physical, because Fight Surgeons are usually readily available to do so. They usually expect you to, but its not a requirement. And the fact you're on base with time to spare, why not then. But its completely different for Guardsmen. Since they are not always on base and they might hold a few jobs and Fight Surgeons are rarely available, the rules are different.

"The war was winding down and I understand that. I just don't agree with the way GWB just walked away from it as soon as it was "safe" to do so. "

Alot of times they asked you to leave. My dad was called up and they asked when he wanted to leave. He could have left the next day. (he served in the USAF from 69-74, his commitment was 5 years but only did 4 years 6 months )

One of the reasons they also let Bush out was because he already racked up the time in drills and whatnot expected of a pliot in a six year commitment. He did it in 5 years 5 months.

They had thousands of more qualified pliots. Wouldn't be more wasteful of gov money to keep pliots on board even when it was likely they would rarely fly?

The Guard wasn't exactly a safe place to be either. While Bush was there a few pliots who lost their lives flying. In 1968 10,600 Guardsmen were called up to serve in Vietnam, and I am sure more were called up after that.

 

[MOHO456]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: MOHO456
Yeah, in a country the size of california and 10000 troops on the ground, I'll need a shitload of it. You have nothing better to do than further your collectivist agenda. I am no NeoCon. I am a good old fasioned conservative. You jokers that pin all this garbage on hte president in a desperate attempt to change the minds of the people are the ones that need the luck. Spew your garbage elsewhere.

Go find them or shut up.

"Actually, as a timely leak from the C.I.A.?s Iraq Survey Group reiterated last week, Mr. Hussein had no "weapons of mass destruction" and no way to manufacture such weapons in meaningful amounts. That isn?t Democratic propaganda, or an outtake from a Michael Moore movie. It is merely factual information, gathered over many months by Mr. Bush?s own appointees, that explodes any justification for war."

Republican Senators tell unpleasant truths

Just so we're clear I am getting ready to try my luck in hte Navy SEALS. I fully intend to back up what I say. I dont sit here whining about the state of the union when theres hundreds of other countries out there. I'm fine here. Why would I leave? You make no sense and your arguments dissolve when facts are presented. Sure go ahead and respond "... blab lbalblabll neocon... heres an meaningless article from a no-name liberal support site..."

Which brings me to my next point:

In virtually every case -- chemical, biological, nuclear and ballistic missiles -- the United States has found the weapons and the programs that the Iraqi dictator successfully concealed for 12 years from U.N. weapons inspectors.

The Iraq Survey Group, ISG, whose intelligence analysts are managed by Charles Duelfer, a former State Department official and deputy chief of the U.N.-led arms-inspection teams, has found "hundreds of cases of activities that were prohibited" under U.N. Security Council resolutions, a senior administration official tells Insight.

"There is a long list of charges made by the U.S. that have been confirmed, but none of this seems to mean anything because the weapons that were unaccounted for by the United Nations remain unaccounted for."

Both Duelfer and his predecessor, David Kay, reported to Congress that the evidence they had found on the ground in Iraq showed Saddam's regime was in "material violation" of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the last of 17 resolutions that promised "serious consequences" if Iraq did not make a complete disclosure of its weapons programs and dismantle them in a verifiable manner.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n...e.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

Theres a reputable site with a contradictory arguement made by the head of the inspection teams. They had the capacity to build this stuff, just read it all.

Facts>Liberals

 

[MOHO456]

O yes, and that ridiculous claim about us losing is overturned by the Prime Minister of Iraq, and this helpful link.

http://www.kimdutoit.com/dr/weblog.php?id=P4321

Sure he hates liberals, and so do I, but these are from a primary source, not some tricke-down biased journalism.

Here's the Allawi Story:

http://www.time.com/time/world.../0,8599,701375,00.html

 

[burnedout]

Man who swore Bush into Air Guard speaks out - The Daily Times, Maryville, TN

2004-09-24
by Lance Coleman
of The Daily Times Staff

Ed Morrisey Jr. has his opinion about rumors President Bush received preferential treatment when he was allowed into the Texas Air National Guard in the late 1960s.

The Blount Countian also has firsthand knowledge.

The 75-year-old Jackson Hills resident is a retired colonel with Texas Air National Guard. He swore Lt. George W. Bush into the service in May 1968.

On Thursday, Morrisey said the argument that Bush got off easy by being in the National Guard doesn't take into consideration the context of the 1960s.

``Bush and the others were flying several flights day or night over the Gulf of Mexico to identify the unknown,'' he said. ``The Cold War was a nervous time. You never knew. There were other things going on equally important to the country, and the Air National Guard had a primary role in it.''

Morrisey said the commander he worked for at the unit in Texas was sent there to rebuild the image of the unit. There were only two to four pilot training slots given to them per year, he said. Individuals questioned by an evaluation board and then chosen by the commander had to be the best.

``Bush was selected and he turned out just fine,'' he said.

According to Morrisey, after Bush began working as a fighter pilot, he became regarded as one of the best pilots there. Unit commander Col. Maurice Udell considered Bush to be one of his top five pilots, Morrisey said.

``The kid did good,'' he said.

Each pilot had to perform alert duty where they patrolled for unidentified aircraft during the threat of the Cold War, Morrisey said.

``Bush Jr. did good for us,'' Morrisey said. ``He pulled alert and he did it all.''

Morrisey said that while Bush didn't get preferential treatment, not everyone was allowed into the National Guard.

``We wanted the best we could get. We never knowingly took an unworthy individual in the units I belonged to,'' he said. ``You're only as good your worst individual.''

This isn't the first time a reporter called Morrisey asking whether or not Bush received preferential treatment. Shortly after Republicans nominated Bush for president in 2000, a reporter from Texas called Morrisey.

``That floored me. The only people that got preferential treatment was when Jimmy Carter pardoned those guys that went to Canada,'' he said of individuals who fled to Canada to avoid the draft during the war in Vietnam.

Speaking of the controversy surrounding Bush's Guard service during the Vietnam era, Morrisey said: ``I think it's tragic. I think real people can filter through this. At least I hope so.''

Morrisey said he agreed with Bush's work as president and supported the administration's aggressive stance toward fighting terrorism and the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

``We've got to eliminate terrorists,'' he said. ``Let's get them where they're living instead of them getting my grandkids and great-grandkids here.''

Morrisey worked as the executive officer of the 147th Fighter Group from February of 1967 to July of 1968. From Texas he came to Alcoa where he was the first commandant of the Noncommissioned Officer Academy at McGhee Tyson Air National Guard Base. He also was ``dedicated to the development'' of the Air National Guard Leadership School and the Officer Preparatory Academy to commission Air Guard officers.

He was commandant for all three schools and became the first commander of the I.G. Brown Professional Military Education Center.

Morrisey has been involved in the community, including being a former member of the Blount Chamber of Commerce, president of the Maryville Kiwanis Club, Blount County Boys Club board member and on the ALCOA Scholarship Selection Committee.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: MOHO456
You make no sense and your arguments dissolve when facts are presented. Sure go ahead and respond "... blab lbalblabll neocon... heres an meaningless article from a no-name liberal support site..."
[ ... ]
Facts>Liberals

I love the Bush worshipers' chutzpah. Here's a guy who has demonstrated his own ignorance, apparently due to his reliance on right-wing extremist news sites, and who lacks the integrity to acknowledge his own mistakes, yet he still has the gall to attack his opponents for (allegedly) disregarding facts and using (allegedly) biased news sources. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.


Edit: typo

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: MOHO456
You make no sense and your arguments dissolve when facts are presented. Sure go ahead and respond "... blab lbalblabll neocon... heres an meaningless article from a no-name liberal support site..."
[ ... ]
Facts>Liberals

I love the Bush worshipers' chutzpah. Here's a guy who has demonstrated his own ignorance, apparently due to his reliance on right-wing extremist news sites, and who lacks the integrity to acknowledge his own mistakes, yet he still has the gall to attacks his opponents for (allegedly) disregarding facts and using (allegedly) biased news sources. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.

They have agriculture chemiclas stored in a camouflaged bunker, so they must be WMD's. LMAO.

I'm a farmer and I have hundereds of gallons of agriculture chemicals stored out of sight at my farm. I also have a fair amount of pesticides that are very deadly. I also have some very poisinous chemcials used to treat grain for insects on hand. They require a gas mask to be worn when using. I guess I have WMD's also then. If I was a country then I would need to be invaded, huh.

If you took my chemicals and concentrated them about 10,000 times, then you might be able to call them WMD's. The article was clearly misrepresenting what was found and because it was in a "ammo dump" it must be true???. Hell, in Iraq schools were even ammo dumps. You suppose they had WMD's there also?

Get real.

The CIA committe I quoted was appointed by Bush. I guess he's slipping in his old age and put a bunch of unreliable liberals on it, because now he says there just "guessing"?? LOL, like they weren't when Bush was saying they had tens of thousands of tons of WMD's? Geesh.

 

[Gaard]

"Why did he stop flying jets?"

Maybe it was nerves.

 

[imported_Condor]

The question of the moment: How many of his six years of reserve commitment did our hero, Kerry actually do? 3.5 gets my vote.