Bush's response is not adequate

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BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Yeah, we know chicken. You're a "liberal meteorologist".

:roll:

As for the help, it's day FIVE. I'm watching the same people begging for help who've been begging for help since Monday.

The NY Times lead editorial today...

The Man-Made Disaster

September 2, 2005

The situation in New Orleans, which had seemed as bad as it could get, became considerably worse yesterday with reports of what seemed like a total breakdown of organized society. Americans who had been humbled by failures in Iraq saw that the authorities could not quickly cope with a natural disaster at home. People died for lack of water, medical care or timely rescues - particularly the old and the young - and victims were almost invariably poor and black. The city's police chief spoke of rapes, beatings and marauding mobs. The pictures were equally heartbreaking and maddening. Disaster planners were well aware that New Orleans could be flooded by the combined effects of a hurricane and broken levees, yet somehow the government was unable to immediately rise to the occasion.

Watching helplessly from afar, many citizens wondered whether rescue operations were hampered because almost one-third of the men and women of the Louisiana National Guard, and an even higher percentage of the Mississippi National Guard, were 7,000 miles away, fighting in Iraq. That's an even bigger loss than the raw numbers suggest because many of these part-time soldiers had to leave behind their full-time jobs in police and fire departments or their jobs as paramedics. Regardless of whether they wear public safety uniforms in civilian life, the guardsmen in Iraq are a crucial resource sorely missed during these early days, when hours have literally meant the difference between evacuation and inundation, between civic order and chaos, between life and death.

The gap is now belatedly being filled by units from other states, though without the local knowledge and training those Mississippi and Louisiana units could supply. The Pentagon is sending thousands of active-duty sailors and soldiers, including a fully staffed aircraft carrier, a hospital ship and some 3,000 Army troops for security and crowd control (even though federal law bars regular Army forces from domestic law enforcement, normally the province of the National Guard).

But it's already a very costly game of catch-up. The situation might have been considerably less dire if all of Louisiana's and Mississippi's National Guard had been mobilized before the storm so they could organize, enforce and aid in the evacuation of vulnerable low-lying areas. Plans should have been drawn up for doing so, with sufficient trained forces available to carry them out.

It's too late for that now. But the hard lessons of this week must be learned and incorporated into the nation's plans for future emergencies, whether these come in the form of natural disasters or terrorist attacks. Every state must now update its plans for quick emergency responses and must be assured by the Pentagon that it will be able to keep enough National Guard soldiers on hand to carry out these plans on very short notice.

Things would have been even worse if a comparable domestic disaster had struck last year, when an even greater percentage of National Guard units were deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some states had more than two-thirds of their Guard forces overseas. After several governors protested, the Pentagon agreed to adjust its force rotations so no state would be stripped of more than half of its guardsmen at any one time. That promise has been kept so far. But honoring it in the months ahead will be extremely difficult with active-duty forces so badly overstretched in Iraq, and prospects for any significant early withdrawals looking bleak.

One lasting lesson that has to be drawn from the Gulf Coast's misery is that from now on, the National Guard must be treated as America's most essential homeland security force, not as some kind of military piggy bank for the Pentagon to raid for long-term overseas missions. America clearly needs a larger active-duty Army. It just as clearly needs a homeland-based National Guard that's fully prepared and ready for any domestic emergency.

HEY BUSH, WHERE THE FVCK IS THE HELP???
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: BBond
Day FIVE and still no help.

If this doesn't wake America up nothing will. Just remember people, with George Bush at the helm, if you need help in a major national disaster, you're on your own.

Can you just imagine what the chicken and his ilk would be saying if this was Clinton instead of Bush? Now ask yourself, how can they or anyone defend Bush?
I defended Clinton during his presidency from the rude, loudmouth ranting right. You see, I'm not the partisan one. I just can't stand the rude, ranting loudmouths from either side. It's one reason I can't stand you.

So now you don't have to wonder what "chicken" would say. You know.

btw, unless you have been ignoring the news completely, help is already in NOLA and they are handing out bottled water, ice, and food. Go turn on NBC, ABC, CBS, or whatever and you'll see it happening. Or keep pretending it's not happening and continue on with your rude, loumouthed, partisan rants.
Now they are but I believe that they were way to slow getting relief there in a timely manner.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: BBond
Yeah, we know chicken. You're a "liberal meteorologist".
I understand the jealousy coming from somone whose sole skill in life seems to be the ability to copy & paste articles from teh intarweb.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
I wonder what Ronald McDumsfeld thinks about his lighter, leaner military now...
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: BBond
Yeah, we know chicken. You're a "liberal meteorologist".
I understand the jealousy coming from somone whose sole skill in life seems to be the ability to copy & paste articles from teh intarweb.

What's "teh intarweb"?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
PS Kindasleazy Rice cut short her shopping, Broadway, U.S. Open vacation last night -- ON DAY FOUR.

 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: BBond
Day FIVE and still no help.

If this doesn't wake America up nothing will. Just remember people, with George Bush at the helm, if you need help in a major national disaster, you're on your own.

Can you just imagine what the chicken and his ilk would be saying if this was Clinton instead of Bush? Now ask yourself, how can they or anyone defend Bush?
I defended Clinton during his presidency from the rude, loudmouth ranting right. You see, I'm not the partisan one. I just can't stand the rude, ranting loudmouths from either side. It's one reason I can't stand you.

So now you don't have to wonder what "chicken" would say. You know.

btw, unless you have been ignoring the news completely, help is already in NOLA and they are handing out bottled water, ice, and food. Go turn on NBC, ABC, CBS, or whatever and you'll see it happening. Or keep pretending it's not happening and continue on with your rude, loumouthed, partisan rants.
Now they are but I believe that they were way to slow getting relief there in a timely manner.
If the levees hadn't been breached and NOLA flooded, cutting off access to most land transport, I'd agree with you. But there were a lot of people trapped all over NOLA and the very first order of business is to help those people. That alone requires hundreds if not thousands of rescue personnel, and those rescue personnel have to have food and shelter themselves. If not, they don't become part of the solution, they become part of the problem. It's unfortunate that the process was not virtually instantaneous, but there's just no way around that. Not on a scale this large and with the destruction so massive and with all the pitfalls involved. How do these rescue personnel even communicate with each other? I know last year from Hurricane Charley that we had over 200 cell towers down. I wonder if there's even 1 left standing in NOLA?

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
No photo-op opportunities similar to Bush and his brother Jeb handing out ice in Florida after the hurricane right before the election. Nothing to gain now, so why go and do it now.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Dan using this tragedy to bash Bush? OMG, what a surprise. Geez. Who next? BBond? conjur? :roll:

Pathetic trolls.
And Chicken ignoring the facts to shill for Bush. OMG, what a surprise. Pathetic tool.

I agree some of the criticisms of Bush are out of line. He cannot be blamed for everything. However, the performance of his administration has been inadequate, IMO. BushCo's actions over the past five years and their current response to this disaster deserve criticism. The fact is that FEMA (and many others) predicted this disaster. The fact is that BushCo moved FEMA under Homeland Security, and that this may have compromised the agency's ability to serve its mission. The fact is the Army Corp of Engineers had a plan the improve the levy system that might have mitigated the flooding in New Orleans, and that Bush cut funding for it. The fact is that BushCo's misadventure in Iraq has diverted military assets that might be saving lives and restoring order at home. The fact is Bush has not stepped up and demonstrated the level of leadership needed to give Americans confidence he and his government have this under control.

I do not particularly fault the response of local authorities. They are simply not equipped for a disaster like this. Local public safety officials rely on fixed infrastrucure (e.g., roads, communications, facilities) to perform their jobs. They're gone. The military, on the other hand, is well-equipped for situations like this. They can be self-sufficient. They can carry their infrastructure with them. They have the vehicles and equipment needed to establish bases and operate in areas without roads and radio towers.

We spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the Pentagon so they can protect America and Americans. At this moment, the single biggest risk to American lives by far is the Katrina catastrophe. In my opinion, the Bush administration should be pulling out all the stops, sending every possible military resource to the region, responding to this disaster just as they would respond to an invasion. This isn't the time for a tempered, modest response. Overreact instead of underreacting. Get the manpower and equipment down there yesterday, even if you don't know what exactly is needed, even if you don't have a master plan for day one. Let units act individually to meet local needs until the big plan is ready to execute.

In my opinion, the Bush administration should have mobilized every available military unit once Katrina's impact was recognized, staging them within a few hours of the region so they could rush in immediately as the storm passed. They shouldn't have waited to be asked. They shouldn't have waited until specific damage information was available. Worst case, if Katrina fizzled, so what? Call it a training exercise and mobilization test. People are dying by the scores, maybe even by the hundreds. Let's get some tangible return for our defense dollars.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Dan using this tragedy to bash Bush? OMG, what a surprise. Geez. Who next? BBond? conjur? :roll:

Pathetic trolls.
And Chicken ignoring the facts to shill for Bush. OMG, what a surprise. Pathetic tool.

I agree some of the criticisms of Bush are out of line. He cannot be blamed for everything. However, the performance of his administration has been inadequate, IMO. BushCo's actions over the past five years and their current response to this disaster deserve criticism. The fact is that FEMA (and many others) predicted this disaster. The fact is that BushCo moved FEMA under Homeland Security, and that this may have compromised the agency's ability to serve its mission. The fact is the Army Corp of Engineers had a plan the improve the levy system that might have mitigated the flooding in New Orleans, and that Bush cut funding for it. The fact is that BushCo's misadventure in Iraq has diverted military assets that might be saving lives and restoring order at home. The fact is Bush has not stepped up and demonstrated the level of leadership needed to give Americans confidence he and his government have this under control.

I do not particularly fault the response of local authorities. They are simply not equipped for a disaster like this. Local public safety officials rely on fixed infrastrucure (e.g., roads, communications, facilities) to perform their jobs. They're gone. The military, on the other hand, is well-equipped for situations like this. They can be self-sufficient. They can carry their infrastructure with them. They have the vehicles and equipment needed to establish bases and operate in areas without roads and radio towers.

We spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the Pentagon so they can protect America and Americans. At this moment, the single biggest risk to American lives by far is the Katrina catastrophe. In my opinion, the Bush administration should be pulling out all the stops, sending every possible military resource to the region, responding to this disaster just as they would respond to an invasion. This isn't the time for a tempered, modest response. Overreact instead of underreacting. Get the manpower and equipment down there yesterday, even if you don't know what exactly is needed, even if you don't have a master plan for day one. Let units act individually to meet local needs until the big plan is ready to execute.

In my opinion, the Bush administration should have mobilized every available military unit once Katrina's impact was recognized, staging them within a few hours of the region so they could rush in immediately as the storm passed. They shouldn't have waited to be asked. They shouldn't have waited until specific damage information was available. Worst case, if Katrina fizzled, so what? Call it a training exercise and mobilization test. People are dying by the scores, maybe even by the hundreds. Let's get some tangible return for our defense dollars.

QFT

It's just unbelievable that this is happening in America...

Local Officials Criticize Federal Government Over Response

September 2, 2005

By JOSEPH B. TREASTER
and DEBORAH SONTAG

NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 1 - Despair, privation and violent lawlessness grew so extreme in New Orleans on Thursday that the flooded city's mayor issued a "desperate S O S" and other local officials, describing the security situation as horrific, lambasted the federal government as responding too slowly to the disaster.

Thousands of refugees from Hurricane Katrina boarded buses for Houston, but others quickly took their places at the filthy, teeming Superdome, which has been serving as the primary shelter. At the increasingly unsanitary convention center, crowds swelled to about 25,000 and desperate refugees clamored for food, water and attention while dead bodies, slumped in wheelchairs or wrapped in sheets, lay in their midst.

"Some people there have not eaten or drunk water for three or four days, which is inexcusable," acknowledged Joseph W. Matthews, the director of the city's Office of Emergency Preparedness.

"We need additional troops, food, water," Mr. Matthews begged, "and we need personnel, law enforcement. This has turned into a situation where the city is being run by thugs."

Three days after the hurricane hit, bringing widespread destruction to the Gulf Coast and ruinous floods to low-lying New Orleans, the White House said President Bush would tour the region on Friday. Citing the magnitude of the disaster, federal officials defended their response so far and pledged that more help was coming. The Army Corps of Engineers continued work to close a levee breach that allowed water from Lake Pontchartrain to pour into New Orleans.

The effects of the disaster spilled out over the country. In Houston, the city began to grapple with the logistics of taking tens of thousands of refugees into the Astrodome. American Red Cross officials said late Thursday night that the Astrodome was full after accepting more than 11,000 refugees and that evacuees were being sent to other shelters in the Houston area.

Elsewhere, San Antonio and Dallas each braced for the arrival of 25,000 more, and Baton Rouge overnight replaced New Orleans as the most populous city in Louisiana and was bursting at the seams.

The devastation in the Gulf Coast also continued to roil oil markets, sending gasoline prices soaring in many areas of the country. In North Carolina, Gov. Michael F. Easley called on citizens to conserve fuel while two big pipelines that supply most of the state's gasoline were brought back on line.

Throughout the stricken region, scores of frantic people, without telephone service, asked for help contacting friends or relatives whose fates they did not know. Some ended up finding them dead. Others had emotional reunions. Newspapers offered toll-free numbers or Web message boards for the searches.

Meanwhile, the situation in New Orleans continued to deteriorate. Angry crowds chanted cries for help, and some among them rushed chaotically at helicopters bringing in food. Although Mayor C. Ray Nagin speculated that thousands might have died, officials said they still did not have a clear idea of the precise toll.

"We're just a bunch of rats," said Earle Young, 31, a cook who stood waiting in a throng of perhaps 10,000 outside the Superdome, waiting in the blazing sun for buses to take them away from the city. "That's how they've been treating us."

Chaos and gunfire hampered efforts to evacuate the Superdome, and, Superintendent P. Edward Compass III of the New Orleans Police Department said, armed thugs have taken control of the secondary makeshift shelter at the convention center. Superintendent Compass said that the thugs repelled eight squads of 11 officers each he had sent to secure the place and that rapes and assaults were occurring unimpeded in the neighboring streets as criminals "preyed upon" passers-by, including stranded tourists.

Mr. Compass said the federal government had taken too long to send in the thousands of troops - as well as the supplies, fuel, vehicles, water and food - needed to stabilize his now "very, very tenuous" city.

Col. Terry Ebbert, director of homeland security for New Orleans, concurred and he was particularly pungent in his criticism. Asserting that the whole recovery operation had been "carried on the backs of the little guys for four goddamn days," he said "the rest of the goddamn nation can't get us any resources for security."

"We are like little birds with our mouths open and you don't have to be very smart to know where to drop the worm," Colonel Ebbert said. "It's criminal within the confines of the United States that within one hour of the hurricane they weren't force-feeding us. It's like FEMA has never been to a hurricane." FEMA is the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Federal officials took pains to defend their efforts, maintaining that supplies were pouring into the area even before the hurricane struck, that thousands of National Guard members had arrived to help secure the city and that thousands more would join them in coming days.

Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco of Louisiana said some 300 National Guard members from Arkansas were flying into New Orleans with the express task of reclaiming the city. "They have M-16's and they are locked and loaded," she said.

Speaking at a news conference in Washington, Michael Chertoff, the secretary of homeland security, said that the Superdome had "crowd control issues" but that it was secure. He referred to what he called "isolated incidents of criminality" in the city.

Mr. Chertoff said Hurricane Katrina had presented a "double challenge" because it was really two disasters in one: the storm and then the flooding.

"For those who wonder why it is that it is difficult to get these supplies and these medical teams into place, the answer is they are battling an ongoing dynamic problem with the water," he said.

On Thursday, the Army Corps of Engineers was battling the water problem by finishing a metal wall across the mouth of the 17th Street Canal, the source of most of the flooding. Once finished, the wall was expected to staunch the flow from Lake Pontchartrain into the canal, which would allow engineers to repair a breach in the levee and to start pumping water from the city.

The federal government's other priority was to evacuate New Orleans, Mr. Chertoff said. To that end, some 200 buses had left the Superdome for the Astrodome in Houston by midday, he said, adding that another 200 buses were expected to start loading passengers later Thursday and that Louisiana was providing an additional 500 school buses.

On the receiving end in Houston, though, the Astrodome looked at times like a squatters' camp in a war-torn country. The refugees from Louisiana, many dirty and hungry, wandered about aimlessly, checking bulletin boards for information about their relatives, queuing up for supplies and pay phones, mobbing Red Cross volunteers to obtain free T-shirts. Many found some conditions similar to those that they left behind at the Superdome, like clogged toilets and foul restrooms.

But in Houston, there were hot showers, crates of Bibles and stacks of pizzas, while in New Orleans, many refugees scrounged for diapers, water and basic survival.

The Senate convened a special session at 10 p.m. Thursday to pass the an emergency supplemental spending bill providing $10.5 billion for relief efforts.

Senator Thad Cochran, the Mississippi Republican who is chairman of the Appropriations Committee, said he had just returned from his home state. "The whole coastal area of the state has been destroyed, virtually destroyed," he said. "It was quiet. It was eerie. It was horrible to behold."

House leaders intended to hold a special session Friday to approve the measure.

Even as administration officials pledged vast resources to the region, however, Speaker J. Dennis Hastert, Republican of Illinois, told a local newspaper, The Daily Herald, that he was skeptical about using billions in federal money to rebuild New Orleans, given its vulnerability. "It doesn't make sense to me," Mr. Hastert said. "And it's a question that certainly we should ask."

He later sought to clarify his comments, saying in a statement: "I am not advocating that the city be abandoned or relocated. My comments about rebuilding the city were intended to reflect my sincere concern with how the city is rebuilt to ensure the future protection of its citizens."

Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, had stayed in his Garden District home through the storm and its immediate aftermath. But on Thursday his generator was running out of fuel, and he was tiring.

"People have only so much staying power with no infrastructure," Dr. Penland said. "I am boarding up my house today and will hopefully be in Baton Rouge or the north shore tonight."

Joseph B. Treaster reported from New Orleans, and Deborah Sontag from New York. Jeremy Alford contributed reporting from Baton Rouge, La.; Felicity Barringer from Metairie, La.; Christine Hauser from New York; and Simon Romero from Houston.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Dan using this tragedy to bash Bush? OMG, what a surprise. Geez. Who next? BBond? conjur? :roll:

Pathetic trolls.
And Chicken ignoring the facts to shill for Bush. OMG, what a surprise. Pathetic tool.

I agree some of the criticisms of Bush are out of line. He cannot be blamed for everything. However, the performance of his administration has been inadequate, IMO. BushCo's actions over the past five years and their current response to this disaster deserve criticism. The fact is that FEMA (and many others) predicted this disaster. The fact is that BushCo moved FEMA under Homeland Security, and that this may have compromised the agency's ability to serve its mission. The fact is the Army Corp of Engineers had a plan the improve the levy system that might have mitigated the flooding in New Orleans, and that Bush cut funding for it. The fact is that BushCo's misadventure in Iraq has diverted military assets that might be saving lives and restoring order at home. The fact is Bush has not stepped up and demonstrated the level of leadership needed to give Americans confidence he and his government have this under control.

I do not particularly fault the response of local authorities. They are simply not equipped for a disaster like this. Local public safety officials rely on fixed infrastrucure (e.g., roads, communications, facilities) to perform their jobs. They're gone. The military, on the other hand, is well-equipped for situations like this. They can be self-sufficient. They can carry their infrastructure with them. They have the vehicles and equipment needed to establish bases and operate in areas without roads and radio towers.

We spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the Pentagon so they can protect America and Americans. At this moment, the single biggest risk to American lives by far is the Katrina catastrophe. In my opinion, the Bush administration should be pulling out all the stops, sending every possible military resource to the region, responding to this disaster just as they would respond to an invasion. This isn't the time for a tempered, modest response. Overreact instead of underreacting. Get the manpower and equipment down there yesterday, even if you don't know what exactly is needed, even if you don't have a master plan for day one. Let units act individually to meet local needs until the big plan is ready to execute.

In my opinion, the Bush administration should have mobilized every available military unit once Katrina's impact was recognized, staging them within a few hours of the region so they could rush in immediately as the storm passed. They shouldn't have waited to be asked. They shouldn't have waited until specific damage information was available. Worst case, if Katrina fizzled, so what? Call it a training exercise and mobilization test. People are dying by the scores, maybe even by the hundreds. Let's get some tangible return for our defense dollars.
I'm not shilling for anyone. I'm trying to infuse a bit of sense into those who seemingly believe that just because the military has equipment and personnel they can respond to something like this at the drop of a hat. Our military is trained to fight wars, not run rescue and security operations. Sure, they can do it eventually, but it requires planning that first requires them to ascertain the situation, the damage, the requirements, and then figure out how to respond. They don't just simply call up SAC and MAC and say "Send your boys to NOLA. Go, go, go!"

FEMA had men and supplies already staged in the region but the disaster on this scale was not expected. It was particularly not expected that levees would be breached and massive flooding would occur. Consiering the situation, the response has been pretty swift, even though the hatchet job partisans in here wouldn't ever admit that because they'll keep insisting that the response should have been instantaneous and immediate, without considering the logistics involved. But hey, when mindless partisan ranting is involved, who should actually expect people to think first? :roll:
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
How many threads are we going to have asking this identical question?

Face it, your guy is a failure.
Dan using this tragedy to bash Bush? OMG, what a surprise. Geez. Who next? BBond? conjur? :roll:

Pathetic trolls.

What's pathetic is your attempt to defend this pathetic administration. But hey, at least joe bob Bush decided to finally stop his brush cutting operation on the ranch. :disgust:
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Yeah, we know chicken. You're a "liberal meteorologist".

:roll:

Don't forget Tennis Pro, Golf Pro and all around excellent human being.... :roll:
*barf*
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not shilling for anyone. I'm trying to infuse a bit of sense into those who seemingly believe that just because the military has equipment and personnel they can respond to something like this at the drop of a hat. Our military is trained to fight wars, not run rescue and security operations. Sure, they can do it eventually, but it requires planning that first requires them to ascertain the situation, the damage, the requirements, and then figure out how to respond. They don't just simply call up SAC and MAC and say "Send your boys to NOLA. Go, go, go!"
That's where we disagree. Have you ever worked a disaster? I have, several times. You do not have to first "ascertain the situation, the damage, the requirements, and then figure out how to respond." You can simply call up your resources and say "Go, go, go". People are intelligent. People are able to independently assess a situation and decide what needs to be done. If you don't have your master plan ready on day one, they'll improvise until you do (and they'll be on-site and ready). Maybe it won't be as effective as a well-coordinated, comprehensive plan, but it's better than nothing, and the people who are dying today can't wait for days while the government gets its act together.


FEMA had men and supplies already staged in the region but the disaster on this scale was not expected. It was particularly not expected that levees would be breached and massive flooding would occur. Consiering the situation, the response has been pretty swift, even though the hatchet job partisans in here wouldn't ever admit that because they'll keep insisting that the response should have been instantaneous and immediate, without considering the logistics involved. But hey, when mindless partisan ranting is involved, who should actually expect people to think first? :roll:
That's simply not true. The first thing everyone expected was the New Orleans levies to be breached, and for the city to be flooded. In fact, people were breathing a sigh of relief in the first hours after the storm passed, when it appeared the levies held. And no, the response has not been swift. We've expected Katrina to have a disastrous impact on the Gulf Coast for almost a week. This is the fifth day since landfall. Only yesterday did we start seeing significant federal response, and forces are still being dispatched. That's too little, too late. They just dispatched the Truman yesterday, for crying out loud. What were they waiting for? Why is it better to have it sitting in port instead of proactively sending it to the Gulf, behind the storm, in case it's needed? Worst case, it's a training exercise.

Again, we spend hundreds of billions of dollars for the military to protect us. We're not seeing the return on those dollars. This is the single greatest risk to Americans in probably 60 years. Our government is letting us down.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
This disaster came as a surprise to NO ONE. A CAT 5 hurricane headed to the Gulf region has been a threat for sometime and many new the ramifications.

don't kid yourselves.

the FEMA response is inadequate. There should have been a military response from day 1 too.

 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I'm not shilling for anyone. I'm trying to infuse a bit of sense into those who seemingly believe that just because the military has equipment and personnel they can respond to something like this at the drop of a hat. Our military is trained to fight wars, not run rescue and security operations. Sure, they can do it eventually, but it requires planning that first requires them to ascertain the situation, the damage, the requirements, and then figure out how to respond. They don't just simply call up SAC and MAC and say "Send your boys to NOLA. Go, go, go!"
That's where we disagree. Have you ever worked a disaster? I have, several times. You do not have to first "ascertain the situation, the damage, the requirements, and then figure out how to respond." You can simply call up your resources and say "Go, go, go". People are intelligent. People are able to independently assess a situation and decide what needs to be done. If you don't have your master plan ready on day one, they'll improvise until you do (and they'll be on-site and ready). Maybe it won't be as effective as a well-coordinated, comprehensive plan, but it's better than nothing, and the people who are dying today can't wait for days while the government gets its act together.
I've lived through disasters, such as 3 hurricanes that slammed Florida last year so I know exactly what it takes. I've also written numerous hurricane and disaster plans for companies like Lockheed-Martin and Disney.

You don't just throw people in a disaster area and let them figure out what to do. It requires planning and coordination. Not only that, but you also have to have food and shelter available for those participating in the effort, or else they just become part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

FEMA had men and supplies already staged in the region but the disaster on this scale was not expected. It was particularly not expected that levees would be breached and massive flooding would occur. Consiering the situation, the response has been pretty swift, even though the hatchet job partisans in here wouldn't ever admit that because they'll keep insisting that the response should have been instantaneous and immediate, without considering the logistics involved. But hey, when mindless partisan ranting is involved, who should actually expect people to think first? :roll:
That's simply not true. The first thing everyone expected was the New Orleans levies to be breached, and for the city to be flooded. In fact, people were breathing a sigh of relief in the first hours after the storm passed, when it appeared the levies held. And no, the response has not been swift. We've expected Katrina to have a disastrous impact on the Gulf Coast for almost a week. This is the fifth day since landfall. Only yesterday did we start seeing significant federal response, and forces are still being dispatched. That's too little, too late. They just dispatched the Truman yesterday, for crying out loud. What were they waiting for? Why is it better to have it sitting in port instead of proactively sending it to the Gulf, behind the storm, in case it's needed? Worst case, it's a training exercise.

Again, we spend hundreds of billions of dollars for the military to protect us. We're not seeing the return on those dollars. This is the single greatest risk to Americans in probably 60 years. Our government is letting us down.
[/quote]
Umm, it simply is true:

Text

Government Saw Flood Risk but Not Levee Failure

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By SCOTT SHANE and ERIC LIPTON
Published: September 2, 2005
WASHINGTON, Sept. 1 - When Michael D. Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, returned in January from a tour of the tsunami devastation in Asia, he urgently gathered his aides to prepare for a similar catastrophe at home.

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M. Scott Mahaskey/Army Times, via Associated Press
With refugees at the Superdome desperate to be leave New Orleans, Maj. Ed Bush of the Louisiana National Guard pleaded Thursday for calm.

The Levee: Gazing at Breached Levees, Critics See Years of Missed Opportunities (September 2, 2005)

"New Orleans was the No. 1 disaster we were talking about," recalled Eric L. Tolbert, then a top FEMA official. "We were obsessed with New Orleans because of the risk."

Disaster officials, who had drawn up dozens of plans and conducted preparedness drills for years, had long known that the low-lying city was especially vulnerable. But despite all the warnings, Hurricane Katrina overwhelmed the very government agencies that had rehearsed for such a calamity. On Thursday, as the flooded city descended into near-anarchy, frantic local officials blasted the federal and state emergency response as woefully sluggish and confused.

"We're in our fifth day and adequate help to quell the situation has not arrived yet," said Edwin P. Compass III, the New Orleans police superintendent.

The response will be dissected for years. But on Thursday, disaster experts and frustrated officials said a crucial shortcoming may have been the failure to predict that the levees keeping Lake Pontchartrain out of the city would be breached, not just overflow.

They also said that evacuation measures were inadequate, leaving far too many city residents behind to suffer severe hardships and, in some cases, join marauding gangs.

Large numbers of National Guard troops should have been deployed on flooded streets early in the disaster to keep order, the critics said. And some questioned whether the federal government's intense focus on terrorism had distracted from planning practical steps to cope with a major natural disaster.

Disaster experts acknowledged that the impact of Hurricane Katrina posed unprecedented difficulties. "There are amazing challenges and obstacles," said Joe Becker, the top disaster response official at the American Red Cross.

Under the circumstances, Mr. Becker said, the government response "has been nothing short of heroic."

But he added that the first, life-saving phase of hurricane response, which usually lasts a matter of hours, in this case was stretching over days.

While some in New Orleans fault FEMA - Terry Ebbert, homeland security director for New Orleans, called it a "hamstrung" bureaucracy - others say any blame should be more widely spread. Local, state and federal officials, for example, have cooperated on disaster planning. In 2000, they studied the impact of a fictional "Hurricane Zebra"; last year they drilled with "Hurricane Pam."

Neither exercise expected the levees to fail. In an interview Thursday on "Good Morning America," President Bush said, "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." He added, "Now we're having to deal with it, and will."

Some lapses may have occurred because of budget cuts. For example, Mr. Tolbert, the former FEMA official, said that "funding dried up" for follow-up to the 2004 Hurricane Pam exercise, cutting off work on plans to shelter thousands of survivors.

Brian Wolshon, an engineering professor at Louisiana State University who served as a consultant on the state's evacuation plan, said little attention was paid to moving out New Orleans's "low-mobility" population - the elderly, the infirm and the poor without cars or other means of fleeing the city, about 100,000 people.

At disaster planning meetings, he said, "the answer was often silence."

Inevitably, the involvement of dozens of agencies complicated the response. FEMA and its parent agency, the Department of Homeland Security, were in charge of coordinating 14 federal agencies with state and local authorities. But Mayor C. Ray Nagin of New Orleans complained Wednesday on CNN that there were too many cooks involved.

Unlike a terrorist attack or an earthquake, Hurricane Katrina gave considerable notice of its arrival. It was on Thursday, Aug. 25, that a tropical storm that had formed in the Bahamas reached hurricane strength and got its name.

The same day, Katrina made landfall in Florida, dumping up to 18 inches of rain. It then moved slowly out over the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico, growing by the hour.

Though its path remained uncertain, the Gulf Coast was clearly threatened, with New Orleans a possible target. Officials from the Pentagon, the National Guard, the Army Corps of Engineers, FEMA and the Homeland Security Department said they were taking steps to prepare for the hurricane's arrival.

...more at the link

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
This is just getting ridiculous. MSNBC just reported a segment on the levees. The man that Bush FIRED because he called the cuts in the Army Corps funds irresponsible was on. At the time Bush FIRED him, Bush referred to the requested funds as "PORK".

And get this, now they're trying to sell this utter and complete ridiculous bullsh!t that Bush is ANGRY! BUSH IS THE PERSON WHOSE POLICIES CREATED THIS CRISIS. BUSH HAS NO ONE TO BE ANGRY WITH BUT HIMSELF.

The arrogant bastard has the nerve to try this crap and the ever subservient press, who were themselves so OUTRAGED by Bush's failure to address this catastrophy, are back to their scripts and sloganeering.

What a disgrace.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
I'm watching live TV here. Fires are breaking out. There is still far too little aid. Still no food, water, transportation according to the people I'm hearing. People who are there.

This morning a news person who was on CNN or MSNBC was interviewed after a segment where police and NG vehicles (only two of which were seen all day) turned around when they saw crowds of people who needed help. One woman requested aid from a police officer and was told, and this is a quote, "Go to hell. It's every man for himself." This news person then told how she stopped in the middle of the crowd and went into either the convention center or stadium and no one attacked her. No one shot at her. People were trying to help each other.

Now I'm not naive enough to believe there isn't a criminal element taking advantage of this situation. That's what criminals do. But the vast majority of the people who were too poor or two infirm to get the hell out of New Orleans, the Americans who were left behind, are there waiting for aid that isn't coming and should have been on the way in staging areas before Katrina ever hit. This is an example of the response you people can expect whenever there is a crisis because under the leadership of George W. Bush this is now the very best that America can do in time of national crisis. "GO TO HELL. IT'S EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF."

Let's be honest, folks. The reason that no one was dispatched to aid in the catastrophe, the reason the people who couldn't evacuate weren't evacuated in the first place, is because Bush is so over stretched in Iraq that he just doesn't have the people to send or the money to handle this crisis. Or to build levees. Or to do any of the countless things that need to be done in America today. It's all PORK but it was absolutely necessary that we invade and occupy Iraq on March 19, 2003. Any delay then and we could have had a crisis of untold proportions on our hands.

:roll:

Think about what America and the world has become since January 20, 2001. You know a tree by its fruit.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: arsbanned
Originally posted by: BBond
Yeah, we know chicken. You're a "liberal meteorologist".

:roll:

Don't forget Tennis Pro, Golf Pro and all around excellent human being.... :roll:
*barf*
You forgot surfer. I'm a pretty good cook too, btw.

Feel free to bring your racquets and clubs when you come to Orlando next month, Dan. I can even get a surfboard for you if you're up for that. It's an 8' fun shape, kind of a semi-long board, so it'll be relatively easy for you to get up in case you're a little bit of a chunky boy.

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The arrogant bastard has the nerve to try this crap and the ever subservient press, who were themselves so OUTRAGED by Bush's failure to address this catastrophy, are back to their scripts and sloganeering.
The President is one of many elected leaders who are in positions of authority for handling crisis, catastrophe and natural disaster.

The planning, preperation and resourcing for disaster relief, to include prevention, begins at the state and local government levels. The federal government cannot hold the hand of every city government in the nation.

New Orleans, for some time, has been at risk for flooding. I remember in the days prior to Katrina, CNN provided a computer modeling analysis of the worst case scenario...which included the possibility of levees failing, and the city essentially flooding.

The local and state governments of these regions should have had a disaster plan in place. While announcing an evacuation was one of many possible preventative measures, more could have been done.

Mayors of cities can call upon their governors for deployment of National Guard forces in preparation for catastrophe. Evacuation plans can be established and broadcasted so that people know where to go in the event of a total loss of power and communications.

The New Orleans solution was to designate the SuperDome as a sanctuary for those stuck in the city...but this plan did not take into consideration the worst case scenario of the entire city flooding.

At this point of the game, it is simply ridiculous to be pointing fingers and attempting to place blame on one person, agency or organization...what New Orleans illustrates is that in the case of catastrophe, even the most developed nation in the world is vulnerable to the forces of nature.

Easy for us, sitting at our computers, to say what should have or could have been done...I dont think any of us want to see our fellow Americans suffer like this...this is probably the worst natural disaster to hit America in its recent history...the only urban catastrophies that I think even come close was the San Francisco earthquake and perhaps the Chicago fires.

Turning this into a political soap box, to throw jabs either at the President or the local city and state officials, is the lowest form of political mud slinging...those who are engaging in such partisan rhetoric are lower then the looters shooting at relief workers.

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said she hoped the amount of needed aid would begin arriving Friday. "I'm not going to stand here and play the blame game," Blanco said. "We have a problem. Let's get to the problem."
That pretty much sums it up.


 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: zendari
Why didn't the city build levees?

Why don't YOU build highways? You ignorant child.

Hurricane relief efforts went well last year. I guess that's the difference between a real leader like Jeb and Mayor Nagin who can't evacuate his own city.
 
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