C# job opportunity

[Obsoleet]

ok, best of luck to you

Interested to hear the defense of how .Net is a core part of C#..

but, I can live with that.
Obsoleet - 1
WaitingForNehalem- 0

 

[douglasb]

Let me fix that for you...

Interested to hear the defense of how .Net is a core part of C#..

but, I can live with that.
Obsoleet - 0
WaitingForNehalem- 1

Seriously, though...Try doing anything in C# without using the .Net framework (basically all of the System.* namespaces), and you will very quickly see his point.

C# consists of 104 keywords and I think that 19 of them are types (including var and dynamic). Some of them are actually just aliases for the .Net types (string for String, int for Int32, long for Int64, etc) so if you exclude those, you are really looking at a language with fewer than 100 keywords. For comparison, VB .Net has 225.

C# was designed to be a relatively stripped-down language that leverages the .Net Framework to do a lot of the "heavy lifting" that is built into other languages.

 

[Tweak155]

What the heck is going on in this thread... you come asking for advice, then argue it. If I get advice I don't think I'll use, I say "thanks" and move on. Either you are young or still need to overcome some immaturity. Perhaps this should be your focus.

 

[Obsoleet]

Yeah, I know what he was saying. But he was calling me out and what he said was wrong anyway.
That's like saying Python is pretty useless without CPython. Thankfully there's Jython, which is also Python.

Or that C# is pretty useless without the CLR, thankfully there's Mono's implementation of the CLI.
No more closely related than any other language and implementation. I'm not the one that needs to read up.

What the heck is going on in this thread... you come asking for advice, then argue it. If I get advice I don't think I'll use, I say "thanks" and move on. Either you are young or still need to overcome some immaturity. Perhaps this should be your focus.

If overcoming my immaturity means I'd end up defending technology just because I'm deeply invested in the ecosystem, then I'll pass on that.
There's plenty of advice, and it was all well-taken. There was no honest 'advice' there, I simply had a few butthurt customers with my views on .Net.

 

[douglasb]

Mono's CLI implementation is the open-source equivalent of Microsoft's CLR. For all intents and purposes, it is a less-complete, open-source version of the exact same thing. If you think that it is somehow better by virtue of not being Microsoft's implementation, then you are only fooling yourself. Maybe WaitingforNehalem should have said "CLR implementation" instead of specifically ".NET". You are really arguing semantics by saying that .Net isn't important to C# because there's Mono. I can tell you with 100% certainty that, without .Net, there would be no Mono.

Regardless, I can tell you that, if you end up getting the job, you won't last very long if your attitude at work is like it is here. If you already know everything, then why are you here asking questions? Why don't you just take the C# job? Better yet, why don't you just get yourself a Python job? Or maybe you can get hired as CIO or lead developer at your company, and just switch the company over to Python.

 

[Tweak155]

If overcoming my immaturity means I'd end up defending technology just because I'm deeply invested in the ecosystem, then I'll pass on that.
There's plenty of advice, and it was all well-taken. There was no honest 'advice' there, I simply had a few butthurt customers with my views on .Net.

When did I say everyone else was mature? Way to miss the point. Another childish retort instead.

 

[Obsoleet]

I think this thread has more than run its course. Besides from those who seem to be bothered by my anti-.Net viewpoints, thanks to everyone for the honest advice and thoughts. It was helpful.

Mono's CLI implementation is the open-source equivalent of Microsoft's CLR. For all intents and purposes, it is a less-complete, open-source version of the exact same thing. If you think that it is somehow better by virtue of not being Microsoft's implementation, then you are only fooling yourself. Maybe WaitingforNehalem should have said "CLR implementation" instead of specifically ".NET". You are really arguing semantics by saying that .Net isn't important to C# because there's Mono. I can tell you with 100% certainty that, without .Net, there would be no Mono.

Regardless, I can tell you that, if you end up getting the job, you won't last very long if your attitude at work is like it is here. If you already know everything, then why are you here asking questions? Why don't you just take the C# job? Better yet, why don't you just get yourself a Python job? Or maybe you can get hired as CIO or lead developer at your company, and just switch the company over to Python.

Semantics/language, or just correct vs incorrect? It's really the latter.
Like I said, he was claiming I needed to read up. I'm not the one who needs to read up. I corrected him though.

No need to worry about my ability to hold a job. I've been in my current role almost 5 years now. I think the bigger danger is me getting bored and leaving than getting let go, but I'll keep an eye out for those exit papers.
To answer your other questions, yup, my next job will be Python centric. And to answer your last statement, I pretty much am becoming lead developer for a portion of this product.
While foreign, I like what I know about C#. Excited to be easing into it. I was told there's plenty of money for any formal training to get me going, and of course many mentors that started in on C# since the beginning.

Switching to Python? I never suggested that, interesting interjection though. It is what it is but it's not some sort of silver bullet.. It wouldn't work as I noted before. If we were to migrate anywhere the choices would be limited. Pretty much only .Net, Java or maybe Drupal would have or do what we need (to my knowledge/from my research).

When did I say everyone else was mature? Way to miss the point. Another childish retort instead.

Yeah ok. I guess I'll put the noodle away because this is one boring pissing match.
To take a page from another's book because I kind of liked the response in a way..
ok best of luck to you.

 

[douglasb]

To the best of my knowledge, nobody here works at Microsoft on any of the .Net teams, so I don't think that your viewpoint really bothers anyone all that much. Then again, I can only speak for myself. But in the end, it's just another tool. I suppose that the analogy would be for one carpenter to be bothered by another carpenter because he likes or doesn't like a certain brand of hammer.

Anyways, the "switch to Python" statement was very tongue-in-cheek. I don't think that would be prudent for most companies.

The good thing about C# is that there a ton of resources available to you. It's very easy to pick up if you have experience with OOP in other languages.

 

[Train]

^^ it's not just "anti .Net viewpoints" as he puts it, it's willful ignorance.

I say you can now target Android and iOS out of the box in visual studio, he not only quotes it, but responds with

Just saying .Net only runs on Windows, but you're suggesting that's in the process of changing?

facepalm.

 

[beginner99]

^ this.
Though breaking compatibility is a luxury that the enterprise stuff doesn't have. I only really use Python in Linux, is there an issue with 64bit Python in Windows that I'm unaware of?

Yes, for a lot libraries there are no official 64-bit versions. For some there are unofficial ones (if you actually find them) and for others you are on your own.

it's just painful that using 64-bit Python makes almost no sense on windows unless you have very specific, special needs. And I only use it for simple scripts anyway eg. memory limit is no issue.

This in contrast to Java were everything just works for 64-bit. JVM for the win. Note that you don't need to write in Java to use the JVM. Groovy is an option or if you want to be cool, there is Scala.

 

[Markbnj]

I suppose that the analogy would be for one carpenter to be bothered by another carpenter because he likes or doesn't like a certain brand of hammer.

Eh, that analogy's a little too granular. More like one carpenter preferring to frame a house a certain way, and another preferring a different approach. I'm sure they hang out on carpenter forums and beat each other up over it just like we do.

 

[Markbnj]

Yes, for a lot libraries there are no official 64-bit versions. For some there are unofficial ones (if you actually find them) and for others you are on your own.

it's just painful that using 64-bit Python makes almost no sense on windows unless you have very specific, special needs. And I only use it for simple scripts anyway eg. memory limit is no issue.

This in contrast to Java were everything just works for 64-bit. JVM for the win. Note that you don't need to write in Java to use the JVM. Groovy is an option or if you want to be cool, there is Scala.

There's an issue with that within python itself, across the 2.x - 3.x gap . It's pretty weird to have 3 be as far down the road as it is, and still have many if not most python devs recommending that new guys start with 2.5.7.

Open source stuff is often messy. Corporate controlled stuff is often clean and well-designed. Sort of like the PC ecosystem vs. the Mac ecosystem in a way. In my opinion the .NET/C# development environment is much, much better packaged, and better thought out, than any of its counterparts on the open source side, including Java. The Windows OS ecosystem always has been better packaged, and better thought out, then the Linux OS ecosystem (which in itself is a useless term, given variances between distros).

C# is the best programming language I've used in my career, hands down. The CLR is, I think, the best run time environment for executing programs that has ever been built, hands down.

The problem is none of it matters unless Microsoft has some room to grow, and some way to regain their leadership. I don't think many people are going to try to apply C# or the CLR to run servers based on Apache or nginx. The tools they already have work well-enough. There is no reason for that migration, and a lot of cultural bias against it. Similarly I don't see wide adoption of C# as a language for Android or iOS app development. You could argue whether the current tools are good enough or not, but you can't argue the direction in which those communities are going to usher any newbie that comes near.

Believe me, the whole conversation about the relative technical merits of the platforms is utterly moot. Software technology gets dragged along in the seismic shifts of the economy. It rarely creates them. Every technology company that rules the world someday has to give up the crown. Ask IBM. There will come a time when people are on a forum like this one arguing whether Google's glory days are behind it .

 

[Tweak155]

Eh, that analogy's a little too granular. More like one carpenter preferring to frame a house a certain way, and another preferring a different approach. I'm sure they hang out on carpenter forums and beat each other up over it just like we do.

Haha. You're alright with me Markbnj.

 

[Markbnj]

Haha. You're alright with me Markbnj.

.

Read this thread, and then recall that we've been building houses for a couple of thousand years now.

http://www.contractortalk.com/f14/proper-layout-when-framing-141001/

 

[Obsoleet]

^^ it's not just "anti .Net viewpoints" as he puts it, it's willful ignorance.

I say you can now target Android and iOS out of the box in visual studio, he not only quotes it, but responds with

facepalm.

Settle down spanky... You could be a dick about it.. or you could just clarify what you meant with-

Removing platform restrictions from .Net libraries?

"Willful ignorance" eh?- or asking an honest question, fool. Which is what I did. I wasn't sure exactly what you meant.
Facepalm your way out of my thread, you're not helpful.

it worked well-enough for template-driven systems like Django, but I see those going out the window soon anyway. And in terms of threading, it's nice to have but too expensive on the server-side anyway. Evented I/O is where large-scale back ends are headed.

I was rereading the thread and I did note this and had a question. Isn't Django MVC, not really templating? You could argue that a 'view' is a template. Depending on your definition of a template. Node has similar MVC patterns as well. The future backend I would presume, would be spitting out JSON. Which there's no technical limitations as to why any modern platform can't do that.

Regarding threading, I'm not sure how Django handles concurrent users. I would assume your webserver would handle that so Nginx or whatever. I'm not impressed with Node as a webserver from when I've tested it out.

 

[Train]

Facepalm your way out of my thread, you're not helpful.

I gave up being helpful yesterday. As the majority of people (and by majority, I mean everyone here but you) has realized by now, you aren't here to be helped.

 

[Obsoleet]

I gave up being helpful yesterday. As the majority of people (and by majority, I mean everyone here but you) has realized by now, you aren't here to be helped.

Not by you, what help can you offer. You have no idea what you're talking about.

And if you did you weren't clarifying anything that I was trying to get out of you regarding your comments. At no point were you 'helpful' at all other than vague suggestions because you don't have any answer.

I've already decided to go forward with the C# opportunity. Yet there's always a few whose butt hurts anytime someone suggests .Net is less than ideal. Oh well.

 

[Markbnj]

I was rereading the thread and I did note this and had a question. Isn't Django MVC, not really templating? You could argue that a 'view' is a template. Depending on your definition of a template.

Yeah it's all templates from this perspective. I'm just referring to the difference between rendering html views on the server, and spitting json into a base template and rendering on the client.

 

[Obsoleet]

Yeah it's all templates from this perspective. I'm just referring to the difference between rendering html views on the server, and spitting json into a base template and rendering on the client.

I agree that a template driven system is bound to die, and did a little research on this. Because it didn't seem plausible to me that most modern frameworks can't do this (per my previous statements)..
Django can spew out pure JSON to a base template. It doesn't care what you put in the response. It certainly can provide templates if you want them, but it's not template driven. There's also gevent and libevent for Django too, or threaded, or process or a blend.

I'm not a diehard 'evented IO' fanboy myself, at least from messing around with Node. Node servers don't cope well when doing some heavy data munching with little or no IO. Cooperative multitasking has benefits..
Django's WSGI publisher which most are written in C or Python itself. There's one written in Python (gunicorn) and it can use gevent, libevent, threads or processes.
And theres at least 3 major APIs for Django. Django REST, django-nap and TastyPie.

I was already really interested in Django but looking into it has me more sold than ever. I've got some vacation time coming up and I'm going to dive into it. I took a ride on the hype train (Node) first, but glad I at least gave it a shot.

 

[beginner99]

In my opinion the .NET/C# development environment is much, much better packaged, and better thought out, than any of its counterparts on the open source side, including Java. The Windows OS ecosystem always has been better packaged, and better thought out, then the Linux OS ecosystem (which in itself is a useless term, given variances between distros).

C# is the best programming language I've used in my career, hands down. The CLR is, I think, the best run time environment for executing programs that has ever been built, hands down.

I must admit I don't really know MS-Stack. The fact remains it is not free and you are forced into not only using c# but als VS, SQL Server and then Windows Server to run the app (if it is a web app).

 

[Markbnj]

I must admit I don't really know MS-Stack. The fact remains it is not free and you are forced into not only using c# but als VS, SQL Server and then Windows Server to run the app (if it is a web app).

Well, you don't have to use Visual Studio or SQL Server. It would be sort of silly not to use the former, just given how productive an environment it is. As for the database, you can use whatever you like: MySQL, postgre, redis, mongo. You do need to run IIS.

 

[Obsoleet]

I must admit I don't really know MS-Stack. The fact remains it is not free and you are forced into not only using c# but als VS, SQL Server and then Windows Server to run the app (if it is a web app).

^ yup. Once you add it all up it becomes less than thrilling unless it's all paid by your company, which it is for most that use it.

 

[postmortemIA]

With MS now making Xamarin a 1st class partner, C# just became the greatest language to currently work with, IMO.

What other environment lets you fire up an awesome IDE, create a single project that can target iOS, Android, WP, and Win8 all at once?

Then open up another project that targets the Xbox. And people tell me Java is portable? no.

Qt does it as well. In C++. Which is native to android (NDK)

Spare us MS propaganda. Xamarin is using gcc backbone for everything that is not MS controlled. It might appear to you as C#, but iOS and Android use Object C and C/C++ natively.

 

[Train]

Qt does it as well. In C++. Which is native to android (NDK)

Spare us MS propaganda. Xamarin is using gcc backbone for everything that is not MS controlled. It might appear to you as C#, but iOS and Android use Object C and C/C++ natively.

C# on Xamarin compiles natively, it doesn't run on a VM. Not sure what your point is.

Are you saying "it's not really C#" because it doesn't run on a runtime?

 

[Hacp]

I had only procedural C experience before I jumped into C#. It took me about 6 weeks to get the hang of everything (object oriented). You'll do fine accepting the C# work.