Cal Power Companies Cry Foul

[piasabird]

You will not even believe this line of baloney!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/b...yourself-power.html?partner=yahoofinance&_r=0

"Alarmed by what they say has become an existential threat to their business, utility companies are moving to roll back government incentives aimed at promoting solar energy and other renewable sources of power. At stake, the companies say, is nothing less than the future of the American electricity industry.

According to the Energy Information Administration, rooftop solar electricity — the economics of which often depend on government incentives and mandates — accounts for less than a quarter of 1 percent of the nation’s power generation.

And yet, to hear executives tell it, such power sources could ultimately threaten traditional utilities’ ability to maintain the nation’s grid."


Source is the NY Times so this should be interesting.
The power companies say the incentives for home owners who install solar or alternative energy are robbing them of revenue. Dont you just love these greedy power companies? They are too comfortable with their monopolies.

Cry me a river for the Electic Monopolies in California!

Hope you like those rolling Brown Outs!

 

[piasabird]

In a way this violates the spirit of competition and free trade, but Power companies are monopolies and by that they have a lot of protection under the law and the little guy is at a disadvantage. As the prices of electricty rise and coal mines and coal power plants are forced offline, Solar and wind are looking pretty good. People need alternatives and the power companies are under attack from the EPA. This puts the public at risk of financial hardship. Maybe with the fracking we need some natural gas power plants or we can devolop Plasma Power Plants. Even a methane power plant looks good.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The key is having stable standby power. Any power source that experiences an outage can cause major disruption of the grid. For every power source that is brought online other sources must be backed down or taken offline to prevent overfrequency or over voltage conditions. The over voltage conditions can result in power surges and damage to the grid.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The key is having stable standby power. Any power source that experiences an outage can cause major disruption of the grid. For every power source that is brought online other sources must be backed down or taken offline to prevent overfrequency or over voltage conditions. The over voltage conditions can result in power surges and damage to the grid.

so you say......who are you??

 

[michal1980]

Its not baloney. Government is giving cash to their competitors. Doesn't sound very free market is.

And while power companies have monopolies, most/all have their profits fully controlled by government rate setters.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

so you say......who are you??

How many power plants have you worked in?

 

[IBMer]

Its not baloney. Government is giving cash to their competitors. Doesn't sound very free market is.

And while power companies have monopolies, most/all have their profits fully controlled by government rate setters.

lol fully controlled by government rate setters that are bought by the power companies.

 

[jagec]

The key is having stable standby power. Any power source that experiences an outage can cause major disruption of the grid. For every power source that is brought online other sources must be backed down or taken offline to prevent overfrequency or over voltage conditions. The over voltage conditions can result in power surges and damage to the grid.

Sure, but we're talking about fractions of a percent here. I agree that above a certain level, solar is impractical. But fluctuations in the balance of supply and demand due to unpredictable rooftop generators are dwarfed by fluctuations due to...unpredictable demand.

Utilities don't like solar because they have to spend money (incentives, grid-tie meters and agreements) for something that costs them money (lost revenue due to lower power consumption). Which is fair. But they get a guaranteed monopoly in return.

Until enough solar is installed that it IS causing difficulties on the engineering side of things, they need to stick to economic arguments.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Sure, but we're talking about fractions of a percent here. I agree that above a certain level, solar is impractical. But fluctuations in the balance of supply and demand due to unpredictable rooftop generators are dwarfed by fluctuations due to...unpredictable demand.

Utilities don't like solar because they have to spend money (incentives, grid-tie meters and agreements) for something that costs them money (lost revenue due to lower power consumption). Which is fair. But they get a guaranteed monopoly in return.

Until enough solar is installed that it IS causing difficulties on the engineering side of things, they need to stick to economic arguments.

Power plants that use steam turbines and gas turbine can operate with spinning reserves (ie operated at 75% capacity*) that can make up for any sources that fail. Now when these units are shutdown due to excessive power sources on the grid they can no longer make up the difference when a power source failure occurs and this can result in a power grid collapse in a given area (brown and black outs)

* These units can't make efficient power (specially gas turbines) at lower loading so it cost more to run them than they can make from the power they produce. This is why they will be taken offline when there's too much available power.

 

[DCal430]

Its not baloney. Government is giving cash to their competitors. Doesn't sound very free market is.

And while power companies have monopolies, most/all have their profits fully controlled by government rate setters.

Who are little more than corrupt rubber stampers for the major utilities.

I am thankful I live in an area with Public Power provider. More local communities need to look into using eminent domain, and start a public power company.

 

[DCal430]

Its not baloney. Government is giving cash to their competitors. Doesn't sound very free market is.

And while power companies have monopolies, most/all have their profits fully controlled by government rate setters.

Then it is time for other communities to do what some already have, use ED and throw out the private power company.

 

[Ken g6]

So, they should replace that spinning reserve with load-leveling batteries, like the new EOS Energy Storage batteries.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So, they should replace that spinning reserve with load-leveling batteries, like the new EOS Energy Storage batteries.

These batteries would be a power source to the grid and couldn't immediately make up for a power loss.

 

[nephilim2k]

Shit in the UK it is encouraged to get solar panels on your house, if you make a surplus, you can sell that to the power companies!

 

[Fern]

Shit in the UK it is encouraged to get solar panels on your house, if you make a surplus, you can sell that to the power companies!

That's how it is here too, at least in my state.

Also, the power company must pay you a premium for the excess power you generate. I.e., they must buy it from you at a higher charge than they sell it for. That may be their real complaint.

Fern

 

[irishScott]

As technology advances, individuals will be capable of doing more by themselves. This is just a symptom of that.

 

[DCal430]

That's how it is here too, at least in my state.

Also, the power company must pay you a premium for the excess power you generate. I.e., they must buy it from you at a higher charge than they sell it for. That may be their real complaint.

Fern

Not here they buy it, for far less.

 

[Gillbot]

This is a double edge sword to be honest. It's good that there is competition, but the reality is, it will hurt everyone in the long run. All these home brewed solutions will cause a decrease in demand, which may lead to plants getting idled or shut down completely. Over time, as these home brewed solutions fade in efficiency, or simply cease to work during a cloudy streak or etc, the "real plants" will be unavailable to provide power since they have been closed/idled or what have you. we are facing a similar situation here in the east.

 

[nephilim2k]

Here it is bought for the same price it is sold at. Most houses keep the surplus however for "emergencies", can be used for charging electrical (non fuel) generators etc.

 

[Via]

This is a double edge sword to be honest. It's good that there is competition, but the reality is, it will hurt everyone in the long run. All these home brewed solutions will cause a decrease in demand, which may lead to plants getting idled or shut down completely. Over time, as these home brewed solutions fade in efficiency, or simply cease to work during a cloudy streak or etc, the "real plants" will be unavailable to provide power since they have been closed/idled or what have you. we are facing a similar situation here in the east.

When electric cars really start to gain some traction there won't a shortage of demand.

 

[DCal430]

Here it is bought for the same price it is sold at. Most houses keep the surplus however for "emergencies", can be used for charging electrical (non fuel) generators etc.

Here around 65% of the cost of electricity is in things like transmission and distribution, you do not get paid for these amounts.

Example they will pay you around 6 cents for electricity, but if you use electricity they will charge you 16 cents, because it is the 6 cents PLUS an addition 10 cents in transmission, distribution, and other fees.

 

[DCal430]

Here it is bought for the same price it is sold at. Most houses keep the surplus however for "emergencies", can be used for charging electrical (non fuel) generators etc.

As far as I can tell no utility in California buys it close to the rate they sell it at.

 

[Gillbot]

When electric cars really start to gain some traction there won't a shortage of demand.

And people won't have solar panels on their roof for recharging?

 

[Via]

And people won't have solar panels on their roof for recharging?

Not enough. What percentage of people actually own the place they live at?

How much solar panel would it take to recharge a car considering it has to power the rest of the house as well?

What about charging on the go? There will be electric charging stations everywhere, and they can't wait for clouds to go away.

 

[DCal430]

The key is having stable standby power. Any power source that experiences an outage can cause major disruption of the grid. For every power source that is brought online other sources must be backed down or taken offline to prevent overfrequency or over voltage conditions. The over voltage conditions can result in power surges and damage to the grid.

This has nothing to do with the power companies, all of this is maintained and controlled by the balancing authority in the area. The balancing authorities are separate from the power companies.

For these areas served by these private companies, the balancing authority is California ISO (Independent System Operator).