Canadian Election 2011

[silverpig]

The thing is this will go to lower student loans more than anything. Even broke-ass people here can go to school, they just have to take out student loans (which virtually anyone can get).

Here's what I'd like to see:

Gradual reduction in corporate tax rates to 10% over 5 years with few loopholes and/or subsidies.
Gradual increase in personal income taxes across the board.
Increase the basic personal amount (amount of tax-free income for everyone).
Hefty estate tax.
Very small but gradually increasing carbon tax where the proceeds are dedicated solely to clean tech development.
A SERIOUS push towards health issue prevention. This can be penalties for unhealthy living and/or rewards for healthy activities.
More encouragement towards education. Eventually I'd like to see a goal of it being free.

Currently we're on our way down to 15% which is a good start:

The corporate tax rate will decrease as follows:

21% before January 1, 2008
19.5% effective January 1, 2008
19% effective January 1, 2009
18% effective January 1, 2010
16.5% effective January 1, 2011
15% effective January 1, 2012

 

[actuarial]

It's not an issue of someone not understanding something, but of who is aware of the ramifications of policy. I contend that the two of you are being short-sighted in your views here.

As I personally stand to gain from this policy I am not making a stand against it, but if the goal is to send more children who normally wouldn't get a post-secondary education off to school, there are better ways of effecting it.

On the first article: it is not complicated to set up an RESP. If you don't have one set up when you get money without the requirement of your own contribution (the new proposal), you're lazy. The reason the CESG is skewed towards the upper class is you need the ability to save. With this one you don't

Part of this plan will be funded by eliminating the tuition/textbook grants which are MASSIVELY skewed towards the upper class (my wife's family got back way more than I did, and even I got more than $4,000 back overall). This is the program least skewed towards the upper class in recent memory.

Even still, I don't see how this system doesn't benefit families sub-$50,000 more than anyone else. A family with two people earning $25,000 a year only pays $2,800 COMBINED in income tax (in Ontario courtesy of taxtips.ca).

And by the way, if this plan goes in and you're making more than $100,000, this plan is going to hurt you. You would have gotten more back claiming your kid's tuition/textbook amounts.

In terms of the corporate tax break stuff, that's a little outside of my expertise. Personally I would like to see this replace the current system, but reduce the amounts and give the benefit over a longer period of time (ex $500 a year from the time they're 10 etc).

 

[ShawnD1]

The thing is this will go to lower student loans more than anything. Even broke-ass people here can go to school, they just have to take out student loans (which virtually anyone can get).

Not in Canada. My gf tried getting student loans, and the rules are that you can't get them if you still live with your parents. What kind of retard comes up with rules like that? If you're poor and you live with parents, you can't get a loan. You can only get a loan if you choose to not live with them and increase your cost of living by approximately $10,000 per year!?!

They also won't give you a student loan if you have too much money. Saving your money = no student loan. Blowing all of your money on heroin = you get a student loan because you no longer have any money. Logic fail.

 

[Firebot]

Did you read the read the rest of the article?



That sounds about right. Libs are in the middle, NDP is left, PC is right. If you're answering in such a way that you're in the middle, it will say vote lib. I'll take the test and give a bunch of green answers and see what it says.

Problem is Libs may want to be branded as the middle, but they have far from being that in recent years. If they were truly in the middle, which is what most Canadians by default are (by Canadian standards), then they would be winning the last few elections. Also, after doing the poll and seeing the results, unless you choose answers like strongly agree that marriage is between a man and a woman, and that corporations should pay much lower taxes, you aren't a 'conservative', you are a liberal. While I was clearly on both social conservatism and financial conservative, I was still branded a liberal since Conservative is marked so far to the right. The poll is misleading since it pigeon holes everything middle as liberal.

Remember, the Liberals are still the party that wanted to introduce carbon taxes less then 3 years ago. Dion was made the scapegoat, but he certainly wasn't the brain behind that idea. Now the Liberals are 'strongly disagree' when it comes to a carbon tax according to the CBC poll when Ignatieff himself took credit for the carbon tax idea last time? Please...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2008/06/19/dion-carbon.html

“We’ve also got to have popular, practical, believable policies that may involve some form of carbon tax, for example, to increase the penalties on emissions. The time for action really is now” — Ignatieff during a Liberal leadership debate (Globe and Mail, June 15, 2006)

Craig Oliver: “Now you were the first leader, as a candidate [for] leader, to talk about a carbon tax and you took a little bit [of] heat for that. Do you still believe in a carbon tax? Of course you do.

Michael Ignatieff: “I do Craig. I learned that there’s no punishment more severe in politics than being the first guy with a good idea but I’m glad, I’m glad our party seems to be moving that way.” (CTV Question Period – May 25, 2008)

 

[iGas]

Not in Canada. My gf tried getting student loans, and the rules are that you can't get them if you still live with your parents. What kind of retard comes up with rules like that? If you're poor and you live with parents, you can't get a loan. You can only get a loan if you choose to not live with them and increase your cost of living by approximately $10,000 per year!?!

They also won't give you a student loan if you have too much money. Saving your money = no student loan. Blowing all of your money on heroin = you get a student loan because you no longer have any money. Logic fail.

That is a good rule, because obviously she couldn't afford to go to school, or responsible enough hence the system wouldn't let her get a loan. It doesn't stop her from getting a private loan as long as the bank approve it.

She can do her first 2 years in college then transfer to save money since it is some where around $3000 a year for tuition, and university is some where a round $5000~6000 per year.

IMHO, your friend should be able to save 5-6K a year if she have a part time job & summer job like many others that are at school or completed their university education.

 

[silverpig]

Not in Canada. My gf tried getting student loans, and the rules are that you can't get them if you still live with your parents. What kind of retard comes up with rules like that? If you're poor and you live with parents, you can't get a loan. You can only get a loan if you choose to not live with them and increase your cost of living by approximately $10,000 per year!?!

They also won't give you a student loan if you have too much money. Saving your money = no student loan. Blowing all of your money on heroin = you get a student loan because you no longer have any money. Logic fail.

I had a student loan when I lived at home for one term, then I moved out. My wife lived away from home and didn't get a student loan because her parents made too much. Once she turned 19, that didn't apply anymore.

Basically, if you live at home and your parents don't make much, you can get a loan.

If you live at home and your parents make a lot, you don't get a loan.

If you live at home and can't afford $5k for tuition... you can't make $5k in a year? Actually more like $4k with this government RESP top-up.

If you have lots of money, you don't need a loan, or an RESP.

 

[iGas]

On the first article: it is not complicated to set up an RESP. If you don't have one set up when you get money without the requirement of your own contribution (the new proposal), you're lazy. The reason the CESG is skewed towards the upper class is you need the ability to save. With this one you don't

Part of this plan will be funded by eliminating the tuition/textbook grants which are MASSIVELY skewed towards the upper class (my wife's family got back way more than I did, and even I got more than $4,000 back overall). This is the program least skewed towards the upper class in recent memory.

Even still, I don't see how this system doesn't benefit families sub-$50,000 more than anyone else. A family with two people earning $25,000 a year only pays $2,800 COMBINED in income tax (in Ontario courtesy of taxtips.ca).

And by the way, if this plan goes in and you're making more than $100,000, this plan is going to hurt you. You would have gotten more back claiming your kid's tuition/textbook amounts.

In terms of the corporate tax break stuff, that's a little outside of my expertise. Personally I would like to see this replace the current system, but reduce the amounts and give the benefit over a longer period of time (ex $500 a year from the time they're 10 etc).

I agree.

They are trying to pull the wool over our eyes just like the stupid argument that the GST would save the tax payer money, so as the HST. They are not doing us a service because fuck around with tax laws give them more money.

It irritates me to no end that there is no accountability hence raising taxes and then give them self insanely high pay raises for doing a bang up job (BC Premier Gordon Campbell gave himself a 54% raised, and his cronies 29~43% not long ago).

 

[silverpig]

I agree.

They are trying to pull the wool over our eyes just like the stupid argument that the GST would save the tax payer money, so as the HST. They are not doing us a service because fuck around with tax laws give them more money.

It irritates me to no end that there is no accountability hence raising taxes and then give them self insanely high pay raises for doing a bang up job (BC Premier Gordon Campbell gave himself a 54% raised, and his cronies 29% not long ago).

HST will probably lower prices

Over the first few months, prices in BC and Ontario rose by 1%. Over the next few months they dropped by about 0.5%. Net change is +0.6% (rounding). Prices are coming down though as the tax credits filter through the system.

 

[iGas]

HST will probably lower prices

Over the first few months, prices in BC and Ontario rose by 1%. Over the next few months they dropped by about 0.5%. Net change is +0.6% (rounding). Prices are coming down though as the tax credits filter through the system.

Sure it is.

Keep on eating up the bs that they spread. Politicians play around with tax law for a reason, and that reason is not to protect the tax paying citizens.

GST purpose was to pay off the Canadian Federal debt by the year 2000 (10 years), then they abolish it as what the cheating Conservative claimed in 1989/90, and the lying Liberals party flat form was to abolish it hence lead to a landslide victory.

It is now 2011 and we still have the GST/HST, and more in debt than ever before.

 

[Firebot]

HST will probably lower prices

Over the first few months, prices in BC and Ontario rose by 1%. Over the next few months they dropped by about 0.5%. Net change is +0.6% (rounding). Prices are coming down though as the tax credits filter through the system.

LOL, wow...partisan much?

The HST on gas alone in Ontario negates any voodoo bonus economics that the Libs have tried to sell. That's a 8% pure tax increase on gas which did not exist before. No tax processing savings at all on gas. Do you somehow think that gas prices would go lower in Ontario?

 

[silverpig]

LOL, wow...partisan much?

The HST on gas alone in Ontario negates any voodoo bonus economics that the Libs have tried to sell. That's a 8% pure tax increase on gas which did not exist before. No tax processing savings at all on gas. Do you somehow think that gas prices would go lower in Ontario?

Then the prices of everything else must have gone down more to compensate.

Smart compares price changes in Ontario before and after the HST with price changes in Quebec over the same period where the HST was not enacted. Kessleman does the same, except compares British Columbia to Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. By doing so the papers can isolate price rises due to the HST relative to price rises caused by 'regular' inflation.

 

[ShawnD1]

That is a good rule, because obviously she couldn't afford to go to school, or responsible enough hence the system wouldn't let her get a loan. It doesn't stop her from getting a private loan as long as the bank approve it.

No bank in the world is going to lend $30,000 to an 18 year old with no credit history.

 

[Firebot]

Then the prices of everything else must have gone down more to compensate.

Who or what the heck is Smart? Read up on his actual report and what it entails, and don't promote partisan hackery points.

http://policyschool.ucalgary.ca/files/publicpolicy/ontario%20sales tax reform4.pdf

I therefore
count only the OSTC and the $200 portion of the OEPTC that is earmarked for energy costs
as part of the OHST reform.

He's counting the OSTC (Ontario Sales Tax Credit), a temporary one time tax credit repayment, which was created by the Liberal party to soothe the tax hike towards his numbers. Those tax rebates should not be counted, since they are one time rebates which won't occur again past June 2011. Remember, this was supposed to be called a revenue neutral shift. It's not. I won't even go through all the rest of the faults of the report. It's a tax hike, no matter how much you sugarcoat it with voodoonomics (GST was originally also brought on as a revenue neutral tax btw).

 

[silverpig]

Who or what the heck is Smart? Read up on his actual report and what it entails, and don't promote partisan hackery points.

http://policyschool.ucalgary.ca/files/publicpolicy/ontario sales tax reform4.pdf

He's counting the OSTC (Ontario Sales Tax Credit), a temporary one time tax credit repayment, which was created by the Liberal party to soothe the tax hike towards his numbers. Frankly those tax rebates should not be counted, since they are one time rebates which won't occur again past June 2011. Remember, this was supposed to be called a revenue neutral shift. It's not. I won't even go through all the rest of the faults of the report.

The OSTC had nothing to do with his calculation of price levels. He factored it in to determine which households were better off in 2011, but this again has nothing to do with the price of goods.

Also, your comment about 8% tax on gasoline making it more expensive is in error.

The average price of gasoline in July rose 7.3 percent more in Ontario than in Quebec, which is slightly less than the new eight percent OHST levied. By December, the cumulative increase in Ontario’s average gasoline prices was just 3.9 percent more than in Quebec. Once again, this suggests that gasoline taxes were undershifted to consumers

 

[Firebot]

The OSTC had nothing to do with his calculation of price levels. He factored it in to determine which households were better off in 2011, but this again has nothing to do with the price of goods.

Also, your comment about 8% tax on gasoline making it more expensive is in error.

Good grief. 8% is 8% no matter how sugarcoated it is through made up factors. I find it hilarious that you are trying to justify the HST so much as a good thing btw through the works of a biased professor which got commissioned (AKA hired) by the same fricking Liberal government who implemented the HST to tell Ontario all is well. That's the same as getting the fox to guard the henhouse.

The Toronto Star is a left-leaning newspaper, yet look at the comments found under the report. That's the voting public speaking btw.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...cts-on-ontario-families-minimal-study#article

I'm in the oil and gas industry. Sales taxes on gas have absolutely no bearing on the final product's cost to the gas company itself. There is no such thing as undershifting prices due to tax reforms, as the gas company does not see a penny from tax revenue collected from customers. Why are Calgary gas prices much lower then Toronto currently, when they used to be higher then Toronto prices in years past? Did Calgary enjoy an 'undershifting' to customers? Of course not.

Quebec's gas prices have always been historically higher then Ontario's, and do not rise up at the same rate. Same for all other provinces actually. To even compare retail gas price rate increases by province is foolhardy as there are tons of factors involved.

http://www.ontariogasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx

You can see which day the HST came into play. Also note that Quebec already has QST levied in its fuel price.

 

[iGas]

No bank in the world is going to lend $30,000 to an 18 year old with no credit history.

What school is she entering into to need 30K loan while living at home?

Even the government are not going to give her that. They give out loan/s every year for 2 semesters at a time.

 

[ShawnD1]

What school is she entering into to need 30K loan while living at home?

http://www.registrar.ualberta.ca/ro.cfm?id=249#Eng
$3,499.64 per semester + about $500 for books per semester. That brings us up to $4,000 * 2 = $8,000 per year
* 4 years = $32,000 loan

Part time $10/h Starbucks jobs don't cut it and anyone who thinks it does is a moron.

 

[silverpig]

Good grief. 8% is 8% no matter how sugarcoated it is through made up factors. I find it hilarious that you are trying to justify the HST so much as a good thing btw through the works of a biased professor which got commissioned (AKA hired) by the same fricking Liberal government who implemented the HST to tell Ontario all is well. That's the same as getting the fox to guard the henhouse.

The Toronto Star is a left-leaning newspaper, yet look at the comments found under the report. That's the voting public speaking btw.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario...cts-on-ontario-families-minimal-study#article

I'm in the oil and gas industry. Sales taxes on gas have absolutely no bearing on the final product's cost to the gas company itself. There is no such thing as undershifting prices due to tax reforms, as the gas company does not see a penny from tax revenue collected from customers. Why are Calgary gas prices much lower then Toronto currently, when they used to be higher then Toronto prices in years past? Did Calgary enjoy an 'undershifting' to customers? Of course not.

Quebec's gas prices have always been historically higher then Ontario's, and do not rise up at the same rate. Same for all other provinces actually. To even compare retail gas price rate increases by province is foolhardy as there are tons of factors involved.

http://www.ontariogasprices.com/retail_price_chart.aspx

You can see which day the HST came into play. Also note that Quebec already has QST levied in its fuel price.

Guh. It went up almost 8% immediately, but came down half way. And that was just gas. The prices of everything else have adjusted back down too. Go on CANSIM and get the CPI yourself if you want. It's all there for you to do it yourself.

Comments from a left leaning newspaper website? Please. They'll whine about taxes just to get the current government out of power. It happened here in BC too. The CBC website was full of the same 30 or 40 people bitching about taxes and trying to get the Liberals recalled. They made a big stink about it and what happened? All the recall campaigns fell flat on their faces. They couldn't even get the people who DIDN'T vote Liberal last election to sign the recall form, let alone get anywhere near 40%.

Look at this gem of a comment from that site:

After studying my month expense tracking spreadsheet, I concluded that gas price alone went from 1.10/L to 1.34/L year over year. Thats 21.8% increase. Since hydro has turned to time-of-use system, I am getting charged almost 80% more for electricity for 50% of the day... What about 8% on natural gas? Now find me a list of items that went down in price so that it average out to .9%....... I think your "consultants" have a defective calculator...

He's blaming the price increase of gas on the HST. Hello dumbass, gas went up for everyone all around the world. FFS.

All of those people are posting anecdotal evidence. "Oh my expenses are higher!" Right. The CPI actually tracks and records prices. Have these people kept a record of the price of beans every month for the last 20 years?

For someone in the oil and gas industry you sure seem to not understand it well. In case you haven't noticed, the tar sands are producing a lot of gas right now. They are also only profitable when oil is expensive. Years ago when oil wasn't expensive, it wasn't so easy to get gas to Calgary. Now that oil is expensive, it is easy to ship oil to Calgary from the nearby oilsands. The transportation cost is factored into the price at the pump and THAT is why Calgary's gas prices are lower than Toronto's when the price of gas is high. I can guarantee you that if gasoline ever gets down to 50 cents a litre again, it'll be more expensive in Calgary than in Toronto.

They compared Ontario to Quebec because there is no better proxy by which you can determine how much the price of gas in Ontario would have risen since July had the HST not been implemented. The price of gas in Ontario has risen since July. Given. Part of that rise has been due to the HST. Given. However, part of the rise has been due to non-HST factors. How can you tell how much is attributable to those other factors? Well, you look at Quebec. Gas is a world traded commodity (sorta... oil is) and Quebec shares its supply with northeastern Ontario. Any effects on the supply in southern Quebec would also affect northeastern Ontario. Thus, to figure out how much of the rise in prices is due to the HST, you take the total rise in prices in gas in Ontario since July and you subtract the rise in gas prices in Quebec.

You do the same in Alberta and BC. What happens? Same result.

What's the problem?

 

[iGas]

http://www.registrar.ualberta.ca/ro.cfm?id=249#Eng
$3,499.64 per semester + about $500 for books per semester. That brings us up to $4,000 * 2 = $8,000 per year
* 4 years = $32,000 loan

Part time $10/h Starbucks jobs don't cut it and anyone who thinks it does is a moron.

I have done 12 years of college and university here in Canada.

BA industrial design, BS computer science, and Red Seal plumbing/gas/refrigeration certifications.

I didn't live at home or have parents that paid for my education. I borrowed a grand total of $18K and paid it off in full and then some. Most of the tuition (roughly 55K) that I paid are from working outside of school hour, and that not including the ten of thousands on books.

My 18 year old niece is currently attending University of Victoria with her own money that she made from working part time at the grocery store since she was 15, and she is living at home.

Your friend is not alone.

 

[sdifox]

I can't believe this Green Party debate exclusion bullshit. Fucking PQ that does not exist outside of Quebec gets to be in the debate but a National party with candidates in all ridings with close to 1M votes or 6.8% of total votes in Election 2008 is not.

Time to take that decision away from the fucking consortium. This is Election Canada responsibility and should not be decided by an interest group. CRTC can lay the smack down and say thou shall carry debate on x date and be ready to get your license revoked.

 

[silverpig]

I can't believe this Green Party debate exclusion bullshit. Fucking PQ that does not exist outside of Quebec gets to be in the debate but a National party with candidates in all ridings with close to 1M votes or 6.8% of total votes in Election 2008 is not.

Time to take that decision away from the fucking consortium. This is Election Canada responsibility and should not be decided by an interest group. CRTC can lay the smack down and say thou shall carry debate on x date and be ready to get your license revoked.

I'd donate some money to have someone with a studio and camera do up a pre-recorded debate with the candidates (green included), and then give that tape out to any network that wanted it on the condition that they had to air it at the same time as this other debate. Put it up on the internet and everything.

 

[sdifox]

I'd donate some money to have someone with a studio and camera do up a pre-recorded debate with the candidates (green included), and then give that tape out to any network that wanted it on the condition that they had to air it at the same time as this other debate. Put it up on the internet and everything.

that's not the right solution. Interaction is important, not just a recorded statement. I want the question to be ad hoc, not this prepared shit.

 

[silverpig]

that's not the right solution. Interaction is important, not just a recorded statement. I want the question to be ad hoc, not this prepared shit.

Oh it'd be a live debate with a moderator asking questions and the candidates giving their answers in real time, just recorded so it could be broadcast at the same time as the green-excluded debate so as to kill its ratings.

 

[sdifox]

Oh it'd be a live debate with a moderator asking questions and the candidates giving their answers in real time, just recorded so it could be broadcast at the same time as the green-excluded debate so as to kill its ratings.

like Harper will agree to that.

 

[silverpig]

like Harper will agree to that.

Ha, imagine a simulcast of two debates, one where the greens aren't present, and one where the conservatives aren't present.