Capitalism is evil

[Velk]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Buz2b

Originally posted by: miketheidiot


and what percentage of income and what percentage of assets do these groups possess. Say the the top 5% pays 51.4% of your income doesn't mean much if you don't know how much they are making. if the top 5% are paying 51.% pecent of the taxes on 60% of the income, and the other 95% are paying 48.6% of the taxes on only 40% of the income, that says alot more. The simple fact is that the top income earners have a lot more extra money to pay taxes on, and can afford to pay 50% taxes much easier than someone earning $20k a year with 2 kids.

when it comes right down to it, if i had the extra income, i would have no problem paying more in taxes.

Ummmm, Ok. So you just explained how our tax system not only works, but is fair. So, what's your point?
Let's review: Those that have more=pay more. Those of us that don't have as much=don't pay as much. Gee, what a system!!

As to the first part of your post, all I can say is "What??!!?" I was going to reply to it but it just doesn't make sense as you worded it. I really think you need to go back through it and correct/reword it a bit. Perhaps then you would get a response. I think you were trying to say something about how the rich don't pay enough of a percentage, based on their income but that wasn't clear at all.
EDIT:
You just posted:

do you have any proof? Last time i checked the highest tax burden fell on the middle/upper middle class, not the wealthy.

Umm, did you forget how to read when you decided you wanted to pay more taxes? Read the CBO report yourself if you don't believe the figures I posted. In fact, the highest tax amount is paid by those that have the highest income.

sorry i didn't write the first half of that statement in any order, basically typed senences as i thought them in no particular order. Allow me to give a second attempt.

The numbers you give don't mean anything at all (other than that the top 5% have the ability to pay 51.4% of the countries taxes and most likely have plenty of money on the side, which is a problem in itself IMO). If does not how much income the top 5% are paying their 51.4% out of. They could be paying their 51.4% of the taxes on 20% or 80% of the national incom or any amount in between.

You own numbers also show the horrible distribution of wealth in the country. the top 5% can afford to pay 51.4% of their income, while the second 5% can only afford roughly a fifth of that, so we can assume that the richest 5% earn 5x the second richest 5%.

Your numbers also give no proof that those with very high income, the rich, pay a greater portion of their income than the middle/upper middle class (lets say those making $50k to $200k) considering the nature of the most recent tax cuts, i would doubt that the very rich pay a higher percentage of their income than the middle classes.

I response to you, i did not say it was fair because our tax structure is not progressive at all (except for the very poor, who pay no income tax and have no taxable assets, and simply pay sales taxes whereever applicable) when social security, property, and sales taxes are figured in. The very rich can afford to pay a much greater % of their income than i can, and until you actually prove that they are doing that, with numbers that aren't so meaningless, i might be convinced.

Lets just say you, and 9 of your old classmates go out to dinner for a reunion. The meal and beers come to about $20 each. One of them has made it big working as a stockbroker, and puts in $155, saying that he's made plenty of money and he wants to be generous, and besides he drank more than anyone else. You put in your $5, and then you browbeat the stockbroker for being a greedy SOB, because $5 is a much bigger proportion of your wage than $155 is of his, and why the hell is he being so damn selfish.

What is it that makes this situation so different ? Is it that you, in theory, know the people involved ?

Is it easier if 'the man' that's keeping you down is faceless and can't be confronted ?

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Stunt
What is it supposed to do?
Doesn't that vary with the individual?

What the government is supposed to do? No, it doesn't. The government exists to protect us from enemies foreign and domestic, to provide basic services like Courts, police, firefighters and a public education system (though how you do Education without the corruption we have now, I couldn't tell ya) to ensure that a basic level of intellectual competence and REASONING ability is achieved. All this extra Social crap is extraneous, EXPENSIVE feel-good fluff that the government has no business doing.

Anyway, more later, I'm heading home and then to Fry's!

Jason

It does change with the individual. The majority of canadians/europeans feel that it is up to government to provide universally available healthcare. The scandinavian countries believe in free post-secondary education, large welfare funding. You believe in public education and security, Dissipate does not.

There is a huge spectrum, you are assuming that your beliefs are the way it should be and your opinion on how government should operate is the only correct way.
You are ignorant to think this.

I assume no such thing, whereas you assume that anyone's OPINION is equally valid in this realm of thought. The government can have no LEGITIMATE authority to rob from bob to make sure that Tom has a steady income or good healthcare. It is NOT the government's job to decide from whom to rob and to whom the money should be given. It wasn't created as a replacement for fvcking Robin Hood, for Chrissakes, it was created as a means to PROTECT the RIGHTS of each individual to his own life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. It is NOT meant to be used as a club by some men to beat others into submission.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: albatross

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: RobCur
http://www.endymion.ukf.net/capitalism.html

I don't to be rich or anything like that, I'd just want everyone to have an equal chance at life. You are either born poor or born rich just like the good old days
The rich do not pay any taxes as far as I know since they are the one collecting taxes
We work only to pay off debt that should never had been if we never agree to it but most people are clueless and don't see anything wrong with that.
In short it is slavery for the masses. bankers have many ways of tricking us into oweing them money that is just like taking candy from a child without them noticing.
No matter what we do, money controls us more then we control our life.

Those who are too lazy to click, here is a direct quote:
Cap'italism n 1. A system by which the few profit from the exploitation of the many. 2. A mindset addicted to profit, work and debt which values money more than life. 3. An unsustainable ideology obsessed by growth despite our finite plante. 4. The cause of the global, social and ecological crisis. 5. A social system overthrown at the end of the 20th century.......

last, I am sick and tired of being controlled by money. It does not bring happiness for most of us, sometime I wish not to spend any if at all other times I just wish people would value life, happiness more then money.
more money does not mean more happiness, it means you have to work harder to get more often losing all of it at a later time.

You know, if you visit a PROPAGANDA website you are GUARANTEED to get a skewed definition of *any* word at all. If you want a DEFINITION of Capitalism from an UNBIASED source, visit Dictionary.com for the CORRECT definition.

-tl-zm)
n.

An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Capitalism begins with a basic assumption: Each individual is the OWNER of his or her own life, and by extension the OWNER of the products of his or her labor and efforts. This means that it assumes each man has a NATURAL RIGHT to his own life and his own work, which in turn means that no one can legitimately TAKE his life or his property.

To own something means that you have the right to decide how to use and/or dispose of that thing. Therefore Capitalism ONLY works based on the idea that men must VOLUNTARILY choose to deal with one another, in whatever capacity.

Man's nature is such that he must act for his own *BENEFIT*, not his own destruction (assuming he behaves like a Human Being, ie, he behaves *Rationally*). Now put those two concepts together: Man chooses for himself based on his own best interests; two men choose to deal, each seeking his or her own best interests and both recognizing that any exchange of VALUES must be voluntary. As a consequence, rational men dealing with one another will bargain to find the ground in which BOTH their needs are met as well as possible, and then reach their agreement VOLUNTARILY based on that principle.

"What about men who use force or coercion?" you ask! Such men cannot be deemed Rational men and Capitalism has no power to control such men. It's one of the reasons we implement Governments among men: to restrain those who would use Force (of which Coercion is a part) to illegitimately sacrifice others for their own benefit.

Your assertion that "the Rich don't pay taxes as they're the ones collecting taxes" is fundamentally flawed and incredibly absurd. The Rich pay more than NINETY PERCENT (90%!!) of the taxes in the United States, even though they represent less than SIX percent of the population. In addition, "the Rich" don't collect taxes. When was the last time you wrote a TAX check to Bill Gates or Arnold Schwarzenegger or Sandra Bullock? The GOVERNMENT collects taxes (am I insane or shouldn't anyone with a PULSE know that?)

Your decription of CREDIT also has no merit and no basis in fact. You assert that it is SLAVERY for a man to work to pay what he owes? If I choose to take out a loan to buy a $4,000 HDTV set am I a SLAVE when I pay the bill? Or would you assert that I should have just been *given* the TV for free? If so, whose responsibility is it to provide me that TV?

I think you need to do A little READING, a little MORE reading, and then top it off with some good, old fashioned Adam Smith and call it a night.

Try to THINK a bit before going off half-cocked spewing Communist Propaganda, which holds no basis in fact, nor in history.

Ask yourself for a moment why you would trust the proponents of a system that systematically slaughtered 100 million innocents in the twentieth century, CURRENTLY enslaves thousands and continues to OPPRESS a *BILLION* people to this very day.

If you have a few dollars to spare, donate to the Victims of Communism memorial fund. You're a good example of what happens when we FORGET what the true face of Evil really looks like.

Jason

i think that site is www.victimsofcommunism.org

Oops, quite right, my bad!

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Abraxas
DMA, tell me, how is it that on the one hand you lambast someone for using a slanted and biased site to define capitalism and then turn to a site like www.victimsofcommunism.org to give the history of communism?

The Victims of Communism site is exactly what it claims to be: A site to show the literal history of the outcome of Communism in practice and to raise awareness for those who are now too young to remember or to know the horrors it has committed upon the human race.

Communism is the ultimate expression of self sacrifice and of the idea "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". It rejects the concept of individual rights and claims that "society" has a right to do whatever it takes for its own good, even if that means that it has to trample you into the dust to get it. I reject this notion utterly on the grounds that its practical application has lead to nothing but suffering, death, pain and the most egregious abuses of power ever seen outside of a Church.

Jason

 

[Abraxas]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Abraxas
DMA, tell me, how is it that on the one hand you lambast someone for using a slanted and biased site to define capitalism and then turn to a site like www.victimsofcommunism.org to give the history of communism?

The Victims of Communism site is exactly what it claims to be: A site to show the literal history of the outcome of Communism in practice and to raise awareness for those who are now too young to remember or to know the horrors it has committed upon the human race.

Communism is the ultimate expression of self sacrifice and of the idea "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". It rejects the concept of individual rights and claims that "society" has a right to do whatever it takes for its own good, even if that means that it has to trample you into the dust to get it. I reject this notion utterly on the grounds that its practical application has lead to nothing but suffering, death, pain and the most egregious abuses of power ever seen outside of a Church.

Jason

Bollocks, Victims of Communism is politically and rhetorically charged nonsense that shows little regard for the sheer complexity of history and puts a spin on things that would be considered excusable under other circumstances. They talk about Lenin murdering his way to power, never mind there was a revolution under way and he no more murdered his way to power than the founding fathers that are so idealized by citizens of the United States. The deaths blamed on Mao, or at least most of them, could better be attributed to the Chinese agricultural system that was eternally perched ont he brink of failure, resulting in even mild climate changes creating massive famines and death by starvation.

When they object to the Americna Revolution, the French Revolution, every famine ever to fall under capitalism's watch, then they can claim to be an objective or historical account. Until then they are no more worthy of consideration than the website that you declared unusable because of its bias. Half of what they list as communism would be completley unrecognizable to anyone who has ever studied Marx as any form of Socialism or Communism.

This is like me going after Liberals based on the concepts presented in Neoliberalism. I enjoy intelligent debate as much as the next guy and probably mroe so, but if you are going to attack an ideology, at least have the decency to attack it on what it actually claims instead of what others have twisted it to be. Nothing intelligent or useful can ever come out of creating strawman ideologies and attacking them.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: Abraxas

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Abraxas
DMA, tell me, how is it that on the one hand you lambast someone for using a slanted and biased site to define capitalism and then turn to a site like www.victimsofcommunism.org to give the history of communism?

The Victims of Communism site is exactly what it claims to be: A site to show the literal history of the outcome of Communism in practice and to raise awareness for those who are now too young to remember or to know the horrors it has committed upon the human race.

Communism is the ultimate expression of self sacrifice and of the idea "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". It rejects the concept of individual rights and claims that "society" has a right to do whatever it takes for its own good, even if that means that it has to trample you into the dust to get it. I reject this notion utterly on the grounds that its practical application has lead to nothing but suffering, death, pain and the most egregious abuses of power ever seen outside of a Church.

Jason

Bollocks, Victims of Communism is politically and rhetorically charged nonsense that shows little regard for the sheer complexity of history and puts a spin on things that would be considered excusable under other circumstances. They talk about Lenin murdering his way to power, never mind there was a revolution under way and he no more murdered his way to power than the founding fathers that are so idealized by citizens of the United States. The deaths blamed on Mao, or at least most of them, could better be attributed to the Chinese agricultural system that was eternally perched ont he brink of failure, resulting in even mild climate changes creating massive famines and death by starvation.

When they object to the Americna Revolution, the French Revolution, every famine ever to fall under capitalism's watch, then they can claim to be an objective or historical account. Until then they are no more worthy of consideration than the website that you declared unusable because of its bias. Half of what they list as communism would be completley unrecognizable to anyone who has ever studied Marx as any form of Socialism or Communism.

This is like me going after Liberals based on the concepts presented in Neoliberalism. I enjoy intelligent debate as much as the next guy and probably mroe so, but if you are going to attack an ideology, at least have the decency to attack it on what it actually claims instead of what others have twisted it to be. Nothing intelligent or useful can ever come out of creating strawman ideologies and attacking them.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Abraxas]

Do you have anything to add or do you just like building a post count?

I'm serious, please share your insight on the Russian Revolution, Chinese agricultural practices, Neoliberalism vs. Liberalism, Marxian politics, just war theory, etc. I'm assuming if you know enough to find my post laughable you have ideas of your own, right?

 

[Amplifier]

haha the ignorance-meter is about to explode. How2economics. Quoting Terri Schiavo "Durrrrnghuhuhgng"

 

[RobCur]

God does not care about money so why should we? Is it a man thing? Is it obsession of using others to do their bidding? Most of us are already wealthy but just don't know it so why crave money more and more everyday hoping to get rich? It'll never happen, you're not born into that class who just have to own someone aka slaves and do no work to be filthy stinking rich for the rest of their life and their generation for many century to come!

In America, no one owns anything other then their worthless belonging. It is not a free market, it is owned by the few super rich aka corporation. Those who say so are idiots and don't know their owned before they were even born!
That's why you have to work your arse off no matter what and even as deperate as mowing someone's lawn for a little money to spend on your needs!
It's really pathetic and very sad

 

[Stunt]

Why did you bring this out of the woodwork...you didnt even respond to our posts. You obviously don't want to discuss this issue, so quit bumping it!!

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: RobCur
God does not care about money so why should we? Is it a man thing? Is it obsession of using others to do their bidding? Most of us are already wealthy but just don't know it so why crave money more and more everyday hoping to get rich? It'll never happen, you're not born into that class who just have to own someone aka slaves and do no work to be filthy stinking rich for the rest of their life and their generation for many century to come!

In America, no one owns anything other then their worthless belonging. It is not a free market, it is owned by the few super rich aka corporation. Those who say so are idiots and don't know their owned before they were even born!
That's why you have to work your arse off no matter what and even as deperate as mowing someone's lawn for a little money to spend on your needs!
It's really pathetic and very sad

Even before capitalism, didn't we all have to work like slaves just to survive? We had to chop wood for fire. Hunt or farm for food. These activities usually took all day and we didn't have any free time on our hands for any leisure activities. We worked until we died.

What's the difference between that and capitalism? No matter what we all will have to work until we die. So what?

 

[glenn1]

Even before capitalism, didn't we all have to work like slaves just to survive? We had to chop wood for fire. Hunt or farm for food. These activities usually took all day and we didn't have any free time on our hands for any leisure activities. We worked until we died.

What's the difference between that and capitalism? No matter what we all will have to work until we die. So what?

Basically he's showing what a person that believes that capitalism is "evil" is like. Basically a whiney b!tch whose main skills consist of masturbation and playing X-Box games, and thinks deserves to be paid millions of dollars just because of the importance of his mere existence in the world, which was encouraged and abetted by a farce of an education system that can't teach children to read but fetishizes "self-esteem" like an idol god. It's not "fair" that someone like Bill Gates (who worked 100 hour weeks for 30 years and created hundreds of billions of dollars in wealth) has so much money when he has so little, after all his job as a cash register clerk at Hot Topic is just as important and besides, he DESERVES to have all that money.

 

[AMDSoldier]

Originally posted by: RobCur
God does not care about money so why should we? Is it a man thing? Is it obsession of using others to do their bidding? Most of us are already wealthy but just don't know it so why crave money more and more everyday hoping to get rich? It'll never happen, you're not born into that class who just have to own someone aka slaves and do no work to be filthy stinking rich for the rest of their life and their generation for many century to come!

In America, no one owns anything other then their worthless belonging. It is not a free market, it is owned by the few super rich aka corporation. Those who say so are idiots and don't know their owned before they were even born!
That's why you have to work your arse off no matter what and even as deperate as mowing someone's lawn for a little money to spend on your needs!
It's really pathetic and very sad

I disagree with the second paragraph where nobody owns anything.

I'm not claiming to be a millionaire yet (that will probably change by end of year), but I can say I know lots of people that own many different assets and there are plenty of "rich" people.

Just depends what group you associate yourself with. Good luck!

 

[Delta52]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I support the system of capitalism based on the moral idea that you are what you make yourself and you are entitled the the fruits of your own labor. While this system certainly has flaws, I haven't seen another system that works so well on a moral level.

Exactly- you can work your butt off and get to the top from nothing, while others that "start" at the top can make bad desicions and get lazy and go to the bottom. The beauty of Capitialism is that it believes in the power of the individual. People who educate themselves to save money, and spend wisely will do much better off then others.

 

[RobCur]

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: RobCur
God does not care about money so why should we? Is it a man thing? Is it obsession of using others to do their bidding? Most of us are already wealthy but just don't know it so why crave money more and more everyday hoping to get rich? It'll never happen, you're not born into that class who just have to own someone aka slaves and do no work to be filthy stinking rich for the rest of their life and their generation for many century to come!

In America, no one owns anything other then their worthless belonging. It is not a free market, it is owned by the few super rich aka corporation. Those who say so are idiots and don't know their owned before they were even born!
That's why you have to work your arse off no matter what and even as deperate as mowing someone's lawn for a little money to spend on your needs!
It's really pathetic and very sad

Even before capitalism, didn't we all have to work like slaves just to survive? We had to chop wood for fire. Hunt or farm for food. These activities usually took all day and we didn't have any free time on our hands for any leisure activities. We worked until we died.

What's the difference between that and capitalism? No matter what we all will have to work until we die. So what?

And we still have to work like slaves today just to afford all the things necessary for life.
Most of it is to benefit slave owners aka corporation, privatization who are in control of our life. It is an advanced form of slavery, history repeats itself. Peons will be peons, rich will always be rich forever and ever.

Life's not fair right? The survival of the fittest will always triump, what is fair in life?
Yes, I enjoy being owned as well. /sarcasm

 

[Stunt]

Why the hell did you bump this?

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
With that sort of outlook I can see why you think Capitalism is evil and money controls you.
I have a different outlook though. I look at it as I control my life and money, but more importantly - I control my own life choices and the happiness/pain that they cause - not some gov't system, bankers, or those EVAL "rich" folks.

*shrug* to each their own I guess...

CsG

So you pretty much lie to yourself every second of every day?

 

[Ozoned]

Hi.
My name is Ozoned.
I make my living by exploiting middle and poor class people. The exploitation occurs by providing them with goods and services ( at a competitive price of course ) that they would not otherwise have access to with out my, and other like-minded individuals, efforts.

I am Evil.:roll::roll:

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
With that sort of outlook I can see why you think Capitalism is evil and money controls you.
I have a different outlook though. I look at it as I control my life and money, but more importantly - I control my own life choices and the happiness/pain that they cause - not some gov't system, bankers, or those EVAL "rich" folks.

*shrug* to each their own I guess...

CsG

So you pretty much lie to yourself every second of every day?

No, why would you say that? Do you not control your own choices?

CsG

 

[jjzelinski]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Proletariat

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
With that sort of outlook I can see why you think Capitalism is evil and money controls you.
I have a different outlook though. I look at it as I control my life and money, but more importantly - I control my own life choices and the happiness/pain that they cause - not some gov't system, bankers, or those EVAL "rich" folks.

*shrug* to each their own I guess...

CsG

So you pretty much lie to yourself every second of every day?

No, why would you say that? Do you not control your own choices?

CsG

Think of it like you're trying to ride a bycycle on a busy road; you're in control of your own destination, but only to the extent that some affluent fellow in a lexus doesn't smash your broke a$$ into oblivion because there weren't any regulations designed with the safety of the pedestrian in mind.

 

[Comanche]

all this from a wrong definition:

Capitalism: An economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and controlled and which is characterized by competition and the profit motive.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: RobCur

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: RobCur
God does not care about money so why should we? Is it a man thing? Is it obsession of using others to do their bidding? Most of us are already wealthy but just don't know it so why crave money more and more everyday hoping to get rich? It'll never happen, you're not born into that class who just have to own someone aka slaves and do no work to be filthy stinking rich for the rest of their life and their generation for many century to come!

In America, no one owns anything other then their worthless belonging. It is not a free market, it is owned by the few super rich aka corporation. Those who say so are idiots and don't know their owned before they were even born!
That's why you have to work your arse off no matter what and even as deperate as mowing someone's lawn for a little money to spend on your needs!
It's really pathetic and very sad

Even before capitalism, didn't we all have to work like slaves just to survive? We had to chop wood for fire. Hunt or farm for food. These activities usually took all day and we didn't have any free time on our hands for any leisure activities. We worked until we died.

What's the difference between that and capitalism? No matter what we all will have to work until we die. So what?

And we still have to work like slaves today just to afford all the things necessary for life.
Most of it is to benefit slave owners aka corporation, privatization who are in control of our life. It is an advanced form of slavery, history repeats itself. Peons will be peons, rich will always be rich forever and ever.

Life's not fair right? The survival of the fittest will always triump, what is fair in life?
Yes, I enjoy being owned as well. /sarcasm

What exactly are you complaining about? Are you complaining that some people are lucky to be rich so they don't have to work while you do? So what? I'll probably have to work until I died too. It's no big deal. Some guys are born good looking and they get all the girls.

It seems like you're complaining that you have to work to afford the things necessary for life. I'm pretty sure that if you had to hunt, farm, and build your own shelter that it would be a lot harder life than the life you are currently living. This evil capitalism has actually improved your living standard. And I can't imagine any system where nobody has to work and have everything they want in life. If you know of one, please share instead of just complaining.

I see you in the hot deal forums starting threads about cheap Lite-On DVD drives which is the result of evil capitalism. So, you seem to be enjoying something this evil has brought you.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: StormRider
And I can't imagine any system where nobody has to work and have everything they want in life.

AGH!!! I don't want to be as happy as them, I want them to be as miserable as me!

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
First of all you can reject money, but you will be an outcast and socializing will be difficult. Not everyone worships money-- but most americans for practical purposes do.

And while I'm a fan of free markets, I do think all children should start out with equal chances. Estate taxes should be 100% and everyone should have similar access to same education. Right now, we have a quasi-aristocratic system, which the founders tried to rid us of with the estate tax.

Outdated natural law arguments in favor of capitalism in 10...9...

Estate taxes are ridiculous. So every time a farmer dies, he can't leave his farm to his children to keep farming it? It has to be pawned off by the government to some big corporation? Give me a break. People earn their money, their possesssions, and they are THEIRS, not the government's, PERIOD. They have a right to leave them to someone else if they wish. The government works for us, we don't work for the government, remember that.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: Infohawk
First of all you can reject money, but you will be an outcast and socializing will be difficult. Not everyone worships money-- but most americans for practical purposes do.

And while I'm a fan of free markets, I do think all children should start out with equal chances. Estate taxes should be 100% and everyone should have similar access to same education. Right now, we have a quasi-aristocratic system, which the founders tried to rid us of with the estate tax.

Outdated natural law arguments in favor of capitalism in 10...9...

Estate taxes are ridiculous. So every time a farmer dies, he can't leave his farm to his children to keep farming it? It has to be pawned off by the government to some big corporation? Give me a break. People earn their money, their possesssions, and they are THEIRS, not the government's, PERIOD. They have a right to leave them to someone else if they wish. The government works for us, we don't work for the government, remember that.

Estate taxes should apply to large estates, but you're right - the family business, home, etc should not be taken. While I'm not ethically opposed to estate taxes, I can even see an argument that they shouldn't exist, though I tend to reject that proposition. Infohawk's point is well taken though - most people who are very wealthy (not all, but most, are not wealthy only because they 'worked hard' and 'earned their money'. Even if you are highly qualified and motivated, chances are you will not die fabulously wealthy unless you started out life at least 'very wealthy'.

In fact, I would say estate taxes are only justifiable at all if they are directly used to make sure children have access to health care and education, the two most important factors in the often asked for, but never delivered 'equality of opportunity'.