Carbon issues with direct injection engines

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Brandyk

Junior Member
Dec 15, 2016
5
0
36
^ A catch can is not a universal benefit to all vehicles. It's for direct injection engines due to the fuel not flowing over the valves to keep them clean(er). You don't have that situation with a carb'd engine, just use carb cleaner every now and then to keep the carb clean.
Thanx for clearing that up!!! I noticed during all my research that everybody keeps talking about their turbo,now i know why.My intake receives alot of carb cleaner!!!
My actual reason for installing one is because my breather has an excessive amount of oil coming out.Yesterday i removed valve cover because one reason for.that is possibly a blocked baffle on pcv side.Seems this is not the case,motor.probably worn.Baffled catch can after breather then? And from there to the back of the intake where the "hot air" nipple was connected to the original air filter unit? Or into the air pipe to which my cone filter is attatched?
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
18
81
Nissan Sentra, multi-injection FTW.

Token port injection for valve cleaning, and DI for fuel efficiency.

the VAG ea888 engine in the generation 3 , has port injection as well . so theres a few engines now that do this, to mitigate the issue.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,681
1,722
126
Thanx for clearing that up!!! I noticed during all my research that everybody keeps talking about their turbo,now i know why.My intake receives alot of carb cleaner!!!
My actual reason for installing one is because my breather has an excessive amount of oil coming out.Yesterday i removed valve cover because one reason for.that is possibly a blocked baffle on pcv side.Seems this is not the case,motor.probably worn.Baffled catch can after breather then? And from there to the back of the intake where the "hot air" nipple was connected to the original air filter unit? Or into the air pipe to which my cone filter is attatched?

Yeah I'd guess worn out engine piston rings. I can't speak for your setup with a hot air nipple, especially after a conversion to using a carb, but I suspect if you alter the vacuum, recirculating that crankcase vapor or not, you may need a tune up afterwards, at least some carb adjustment to wring the smoothest running state you can get out of a potentially worn out engine.

Frankly I would leave it alone, either plan on rebuilding the engine if you feel the vehicle is a keeper or just clean the breather off more often if not. Even if I were going to reroute the crankcase vapors back through the intake, I would not bother with a catch can on a carb'd setup. To me that's pouring money and time into something that doesn't significantly benefit the vehicle lifespan or performance.
 

Brandyk

Junior Member
Dec 15, 2016
5
0
36
Yes i agree with you,the setup has been like that for many years now.When i had a cone filter,branch and freeflow fitted,also many years ago,they ditched the whole air cleaner unit obviously and put on an air pipe with the cone filter.For about eight or nine years i had a breather filter on the breather nipple on the valve cover and all was fine ,until sometime this year i think,when i noticed the breather filter was full of oil and oil running down the back of engine and getting onto my sideshafts which in turn sprays oil everywhere.So my main goal is just to keep my engine and engine bay and inside of the bonnet,oil free.And as far as the catch can goes,I just finished making another one,better designed and was planning on installing it today.Any suggestions for the oily mess? Thanx so much for your feedback guys!!! Its appreciated because im unemployed and mech's are pricey
 

NoSoupforyou

Member
Dec 20, 2016
55
9
81
Late spring i was car shopping. During research i kept coming up with the GDI issues. Many people i spoke to did not know about it or looked at me like i was mental for even being concerned. Especially true when talking to dealerships.

These days it is very hard to find a pure port injection car but i limited my selection to that. In July i bought a 2016 Honda Civic EX-HS. I made sure it had the port injected 2.0L engine.

From reading this thread it just reinforces my decision and shows that i wasnt imagining problems with DI engines.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Late spring i was car shopping. During research i kept coming up with the GDI issues. Many people i spoke to did not know about it or looked at me like i was mental for even being concerned. Especially true when talking to dealerships.

These days it is very hard to find a pure port injection car but i limited my selection to that. In July i bought a 2016 Honda Civic EX-HS. I made sure it had the port injected 2.0L engine.

From reading this thread it just reinforces my decision and shows that i wasnt imagining problems with DI engines.
Indeed my moms 2011 Hyundai Elantra was GDI and they ran at something stupid like a 10.3 compression ratio on 87 octane and lo and behold it blew a rod in adverse conditions (stuck in a traffic jam in a stuffy tunnel) and the dealer had to rebuild the engine but she sold it because the hell with that.
 
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mrgeophysics

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2018
2
0
6
I am no mechanic by all means but I am a diy'er and I do a lot of research before I diy anything. From what I have been reading/watching for the last week or so this thread makes the most sense. Apart from helping DI engines with carbon build-up, respectable catch cans (rx, elite e2) are beneficial to keep the intake manifold relatively cleaner as oppose to not having one. Is not that the case?

I intended this to be a comment on what mindless1 said about catch cans are only beneficial to DI engines...
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
8,681
1,722
126
^ A bit of deposits on the intake manifold past the throttle body are not a problem unless it's fouling a sensor or some other (idle control perhaps) valve. On the cylinder intake valves if it's not direct injection you have the fuel injectors (or carb going back decades ago) external to them, cleaning them off and reducing buildup rate due to running cooler from the flow of fuel past them. You might have to clean your throttle body too once on a blue moon but it's not the only source of deposits, you still have EGR.

If you have some bolt on (external) sensor or valve, it can be cleaned later or replaced more easily and inexpensively than adding a catch can and monitoring, emptying it periodically. It could also result that on some engines a catch can is going to reduce crankcase vapor scavenging (which keeps oil cleaner) rate so for equal protection your oil change interval may need to decrease. That can also cause higher crankcase pressure which reduces engine efficiency. Engine tune and piston rings can expect a certain PCV flow rate and crankcase pressure range.

In other words, of things people bolt onto engines, there just hasn't been significant enough benefit for a non-DI engine and some drawbacks. Consider those who design the engines, granted their designs cause a problem on DI but the non-DI engine has been around for a long time.

If the catch can had a cost effective benefit it would be on the engine already. If it were even the best solution for DI engines the manufacturers wouldn't be looking at ways to add an additional external injector instead of a catch can.
 

mrgeophysics

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2018
2
0
6
^ A bit of deposits on the intake manifold past the throttle body are not a problem unless it's fouling a sensor or some other (idle control perhaps) valve. On the cylinder intake valves if it's not direct injection you have the fuel injectors (or carb going back decades ago) external to them, cleaning them off and reducing buildup rate due to running cooler from the flow of fuel past them. You might have to clean your throttle body too once on a blue moon but it's not the only source of deposits, you still have EGR.

If you have some bolt on (external) sensor or valve, it can be cleaned later or replaced more easily and inexpensively than adding a catch can and monitoring, emptying it periodically. It could also result that on some engines a catch can is going to reduce crankcase vapor scavenging (which keeps oil cleaner) rate so for equal protection your oil change interval may need to decrease. That can also cause higher crankcase pressure which reduces engine efficiency. Engine tune and piston rings can expect a certain PCV flow rate and crankcase pressure range.

In other words, of things people bolt onto engines, there just hasn't been significant enough benefit for a non-DI engine and some drawbacks. Consider those who design the engines, granted their designs cause a problem on DI but the non-DI engine has been around for a long time.

If the catch can had a cost effective benefit it would be on the engine already. If it were even the best solution for DI engines the manufacturers wouldn't be looking at ways to add an additional external injector instead of a catch can.

I have a problem with my vq37vhr (naturally aspirated V6, non-DI) engine with 105K miles on it. The issue is not major but rather annoying. RPM drops below the nominal idling value (650 ± 50) for a split second at a hard stop after some highway miles. The car shakes at that moment but immediately picks up the revs.

I have been on different forums trying to understand the engine dynamics (that I thought relative to my problem) a little bit better since no CEL. Forum members indicated that this problem was inherent to some vehicles even after 30k miles. The majority of the forum community recommends cleaning the throttle bodies (TBs) which solved the problem for the most but not for everybody. Cleaning the IACV fixed the problem for at least one case. I have never been able to solve an engine problem with an easy fix since I am extremely lucky.

Neither of the methods mentioned above solved my issue except warming up the engine to operating temperature before taking off. This method had eliminated the problem for me for months until a couple of weeks ago or so. The dealership looked at the issue and performed the idle air volume learning procedure. This helped with the problem a little bit as the rpm has not dipped below 500 revolutions at a hard stop as it used to. However, this did not fully resolve the issue. There is still a slight dip at a hard stop but occurring intermittently. Subsequently, I cleaned the IACV (idle air control valve) and it has a little to no effect on the problem. This was the time I realized my intake manifold is extremely oily/greasy. Every port/nozzle on the intake manifold shows signs of oil coating on those ports once you pull the respective hose. That made me learn about the PCV and it's functions, catch cans etc. Catch can idea made sense until I read your post. Also, one of the problems that the dealership found was with the fuel damper. It is noisy like a diesel but only if you are in the cabin. Fuel and air are the main components of the combustion and I changed my spark plugs less than 25K miles ago which is half of the recommended interval. I ordered original PCV valves, fuel damper and IM gasket. I will replace those and clean the IM and the TBs hoping that the issue will be resolved however, I am not optimistic.

I do not even want to think about this problem may be related to oil pressure drop due to the faulty oil galley seals in this particular engine. As they were made out of paper for a certain period and were replaced by the metal ones after problems arose but the manufacturer never made a recall on this because the galleys are behind the front engine cover and the timing chain, tensioners etc has to come off.

Any input is appreciated and thank you for your time.
 
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Eurotech187

Junior Member
Jun 3, 2020
1
0
6
I had some real Carbon build-up problems when I purchased my wife her first GMC Acadia. 2009 with under 35K miles. When it started it cold it would idle rough then smooth out after it warmed up. By the time it had 45K miles the misfires started getting real bad and the Check Engine Lights started flashing while driving. I ended up walnut blasting the valves which took care of that problem. It's not complicated but it was a quite a process to do that. Now we have 89K and it's ready for another cleaning. I found this article online from a company called ATS Carbon Clean. They have a very different way of treating it then the traditional Walnut Blasting.
Has anyone ever tried this system before?
Here is the article I found>
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,507
1,122
126
I think the di engines need to be run harder. If you babyfoot around all the time you get less heat, more buildup.
 

Jimzz

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2012
4,399
190
106
I think the di engines need to be run harder. If you babyfoot around all the time you get less heat, more buildup.


That will not help at all. DI means there is no fuel to wash over the intake valve so driving harder might actually make it worse. Its still mostly a European motor issue since toyota got rid of its 2.5 motor.
I still recommend cleaning the intake ever 25k or so to keep everythign running well and every 10k for most European cars.
 

ondma

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2018
3,256
1,661
136
Also, be sure to use "top teir" gasoline. I think the standard was set by AAA. The gas has to meet certain criteria for cleaning additives to qualify for the label.
 
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