Catholics are not Christians?

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: Netopia

Jesus gave Peter and all successive Popes the authoirty to create these rules (Whatever they may be).

Actually, NO... He didn't. That belief comes from taking single situation in the Bible and taking if VERY out of context.

Joe

Would that situation be this:

Matthew 16: 18-19

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

"I will give you the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven"

Curious as to why you decided to respond to Netopia's comment on this quote of yours instead of mine but I'll respond.
That is a prime example of something taken out of context. So what's the context? Here is it.

Mattew 16:
13: Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
14: And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15: He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16: Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17: And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

He is not telling Peter that Peter is the rock on which he will build His church, he is stating that the fact that his comment, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." is the rock that he will build His church. This is further reinforced but the second part of the sentence where Jesus says, "the powers of death shall not prevail against it." This foreshadows his death on the cross and resurrection 3 days later. He is the son of God and death will not overpower him.

 

[Netopia]

"surely, i say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise"

or

"Surely i say unto you, today you shall be with me in paradise"

as jesus himself wasn't in paradise that day, it's safe to assume that he meant the first of the 2 renderings.

Point taken. Actually, I was just paraphrasing, as I've not Bible handy here in my office. But my point was not so much WHEN they would be together, so much as the fact that THEY WOULD be together.

Joe

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Netopia
Actually, I was just paraphrasing, as I've not Bible handy here in my office.

Here is what I've been using throughout this thread.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: Netopia

Jesus gave Peter and all successive Popes the authoirty to create these rules (Whatever they may be).

Actually, NO... He didn't. That belief comes from taking single situation in the Bible and taking if VERY out of context.

Joe

Would that situation be this:

Matthew 16: 18-19

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

"I will give you the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven"

Curious as to why you decided to respond to Netopia's comment on this quote of yours instead of mine but I'll respond.
That is a prime example of something taken out of context. So what's the context? Here is it.

Mattew 16:
13: Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
14: And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15: He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16: Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17: And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

He is not telling Peter that Peter is the rock on which he will build His church, he is stating that the fact that his comment, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." is the rock that he will build His church. This is further reinforced but the second part of the sentence where Jesus says, "the powers of death shall not prevail against it." This foreshadows his death on the cross and resurrection 3 days later. He is the son of God and death will not overpower him.

I didn't mean anything by quoting him and not you, so please don't take it to be offensive lemme take in what you've just said.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

"surely, i say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise"

or

"Surely i say unto you, today you shall be with me in paradise"

as jesus himself wasn't in paradise that day, it's safe to assume that he meant the first of the 2 renderings.

which brings on a nice question that would be good for discussion. Where "was" Christ the three days he was dead?

 

[Netopia]

It is quite possible that this person who had a knowledge of Christ and his teaching was a previously good person and had been baptized.

Please! Everywhere in the New Testament where there is a believer in Christ, the text mentions it. If he had been a child of God, do you think that the Holy Spirit would have had Luke speak of him as a malfactor or thief? You can PUSH all you want to try to squeeze your agenda in, but the fact is that in doing so you are having to reject centuries of teachings of Christian Orthodoxy.

Joe

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Netopia

It is quite possible that this person who had a knowledge of Christ and his teaching was a previously good person and had been baptized.

Please! Everywhere in the New Testament where there is a believer in Christ, the text mentions it. If he had been a child of God, do you think that the Holy Spirit would have had Luke speak of him as a malfactor or thief?

Luke 7
37: And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38: And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39: Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

to respond to your bolded statement, yes.

You can PUSH all you want to try to squeeze your agenda in, but the fact is that in doing so you are having to reject centuries of teachings of Christian Orthodoxy.

Hence why I'm a Christian and have gone back to the Bible for its teaching and not trusted upon centuries upon centuries of other people interpretations of what the word says.

 

[brigden]

I love Catholic girls.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

to a catholic the Priest can forgive sins and the priest serves as an intercessor before god.

they didn't teach us that in catechism

 

[mwtgg]

Originally posted by: Flyermax2k3
Believe whatever you like about me, Conjur. I know I won't change your opinion.
Re: my "bashing" Catholicism: what's your point? I believe Catholicism is evil, and extra-biblical. I doubt I'll convince anyone here of my beliefs - most people are far too stubborn (myself included) to allow their precious opinion to be changed by someone else's statement of belief.
Let me put it simply: there is no *Biblical* basis for many things that the Catholic church teaches. This is a fact. You show me the verse in the Bible that says man should pray to *ANYONE* but G-d. Praying to Mary because she's believed to be better than everyone else is the exact same thing as worshipping her as a deity. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you because you have been deceived

Ok, I was going to stay out of this, but when you call Catholics Satan worshippers, you went too far.

Now, as for praying to saints and Mary, it is found in the Bible.

Revelation 8:3

And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.

Now, about Mary, I already went into it in
another thread.

And yes, Mary is better than most people, I mean after all she bore for us Our Lord, that's no small feat, is it Flyermax? And going back to what I and many others said in Nocturnal's thread, she is NOT worshipped.

 

[Netopia]

And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.

What I see is an ANGEL being told to offer the prayers OF the saints to God...

What I DON'T see is a reference to ANY man being told to pray TO Saints.

Also, if you read the New Testement, it's clear that the word "saint" referred to anyone who believes, either living or dead:

ACTS 9:32 As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the saints in Lydda.

ACTS 26:10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.

Just from these two verses one has to ask if Peter was going around visiting graves and the Jewish authorities were throwing corpses in prison... or does the Catholic Church have a different meaning for the word "Saint" than what God uses in the Bible?

Ok, I was going to stay out of this, but when you call Catholics Satan worshippers, you went too far.

You've got to be kidding... he crosses a LOT of lines before that one!

Joe

 

[Yzzim]

wish I would have found this thread before it reached 200+ posts sooo much catching up to do

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Yzzim
wish I would have found this thread before it reached 200+ posts sooo much catching up to do

Bah...just read the first coupla pages.

You can stop reading once you get to G-dboy's rantings.

 

[Yzzim]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Yzzim
wish I would have found this thread before it reached 200+ posts sooo much catching up to do

Bah...just read the first coupla pages.

You can stop reading once you get to G-dboy's rantings.

lol

has he ever said why he doesn't type the "o" in God?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Yzzim

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Yzzim
wish I would have found this thread before it reached 200+ posts sooo much catching up to do

Bah...just read the first coupla pages.

You can stop reading once you get to G-dboy's rantings.

lol

has he ever said why he doesn't type the "o" in God?

In the past he has. He's a self-proclaimed ultra-fundamentalist who thinks by actually typing the word God will damn him to an eternity in hell. You know, like the orthodox Jews who think the same thing. They'll use other words like Creator, the One, etc. which are ok. But oh...no...say or type God and BAM! You're damned to hell!

Mind-boggling.

More detail:

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm



You know, you'd think Flyermax2k3 was an Orthodox Jew but yet he believe in Jesus. He's the prime example of someone with no religious education reading the Bible from front to back with no guidance whatsoever and taking everything in it literally.

 

[Netopia]

What's even sillier is that it is THE NAME OF GOD which is to be given utmost reverence. While showing respect for The Creator is never a bad thing, GOD is just a title, it's not His name.

Joe

 

[Yzzim]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Yzzim

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Yzzim
wish I would have found this thread before it reached 200+ posts sooo much catching up to do

Bah...just read the first coupla pages.

You can stop reading once you get to G-dboy's rantings.

lol

has he ever said why he doesn't type the "o" in God?

In the past he has. He's a self-proclaimed ultra-fundamentalist who thinks by actually typing the word God will damn him to an eternity in hell. You know, like the orthodox Jews who think the same thing. They'll use other words like Creator, the One, etc. which are ok. But oh...no...say or type God and BAM! You're damned to hell!

Mind-boggling.

More detail:

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm



You know, you'd think Flyermax2k3 was an Orthodox Jew but yet he believe in Jesus. He's the prime example of someone with no religious education reading the Bible from front to back with no guidance whatsoever and taking everything in it literally.

You mean he hasn't had someone telling him what the bible says? He's understanding it the way he believes is right?

That's probably a good thing.

 

[Spamela]

let's see:

there's one Catholic church, founded by Christ,
with 2000 years of tradition and >1 Billion followers today,
that decided what would be in the Bible.

so, i'd say Catholics are Christians.
your theology would have to be pretty idiosyncratic or
just plain broken to say they're not.

if you claim otherwise, then you have to explain Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

if you want to understand Catholic beliefs or have questions, then go speak with a
Priest or a local Church's director of religious education.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Netopia
What's even sillier is that it is THE NAME OF GOD which is to be given utmost reverence. While showing respect for The Creator is never a bad thing, GOD is just a title, it's not His name.

Joe

even the word Name has SUCH a different context and meaning now then it did then.

we no longer have reverence for the idea of name, i'm not sure if we even understand what name means the way they used it back then.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Spamela
let's see:

there's one Catholic church, founded by Christ,
with 2000 years of tradition and >1 Billion followers today,
that decided what would be in the Bible.

so, i'd say Catholics are Christians.
your theology would have to be pretty idiosyncratic or
just plain broken to say they're not.

if you claim otherwise, then you have to explain Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

if you want to understand Catholic beliefs or have questions, then go speak with a
Priest or a local Church's director of religious education.

and how does that verse prove the catholic church?? the catholic church as we know it didn't come about till about 300 years AFTER the death and ressurection of christ.

christ asked his disciples to take leadership.

also, the use of the word rock there was a play on his name peter. it was the greek word commonly used to symbolize pebble, not the word Boulder that was used when describing christs relationship to the church as it's foundation rock.

the catholic church as we know it was founded by Constantine.

 

[PlatinumGold]

oh ya, also, there is a reason why it's called judeo christianity, all christianity is just a sect of judaism.

that's a nice slap in the face to all the anti semite christians in the world. i find it very funny that the most extreme of antisemitic christians believed in a "once saved always saved" doctrine, (once god has chosen you, your destiny is set) and yet they want to deny jews (who are CLEARLY god's chosen people in the bible).

 

[Yzzim]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Spamela
let's see:

there's one Catholic church, founded by Christ,
with 2000 years of tradition and >1 Billion followers today,
that decided what would be in the Bible.

so, i'd say Catholics are Christians.
your theology would have to be pretty idiosyncratic or
just plain broken to say they're not.

if you claim otherwise, then you have to explain Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

if you want to understand Catholic beliefs or have questions, then go speak with a
Priest or a local Church's director of religious education.

and how does that verse prove the catholic church?? the catholic church as we know it didn't come about till about 300 years AFTER the death and ressurection of christ.

christ asked his disciples to take leadership.

also, the use of the word rock there was a play on his name peter. it was the greek word commonly used to symbolize pebble, not the word Boulder that was used when describing christs relationship to the church as it's foundation rock.

the catholic church as we know it was founded by Constantine.

Didn't Constantine also change the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?

<----- future seventh-day adventist

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Yzzim

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Spamela
let's see:

there's one Catholic church, founded by Christ,
with 2000 years of tradition and >1 Billion followers today,
that decided what would be in the Bible.

so, i'd say Catholics are Christians.
your theology would have to be pretty idiosyncratic or
just plain broken to say they're not.

if you claim otherwise, then you have to explain Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

if you want to understand Catholic beliefs or have questions, then go speak with a
Priest or a local Church's director of religious education.

and how does that verse prove the catholic church?? the catholic church as we know it didn't come about till about 300 years AFTER the death and ressurection of christ.

christ asked his disciples to take leadership.

also, the use of the word rock there was a play on his name peter. it was the greek word commonly used to symbolize pebble, not the word Boulder that was used when describing christs relationship to the church as it's foundation rock.

the catholic church as we know it was founded by Constantine.

Didn't Constantine also change the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?

<----- future seventh-day adventist

currently a seventh-day adventist.

not exactly, with the conversion of constantine to christianity, he decided to try and make the church more attractive to "pagans". so he instituted another day of worship, the maintained the 7th day as the primary day of worship, but it was primarily an austere and sacred day. sunday was the day to celebrate the resurrection of christ (the son) it just also happened that sunday was already a day of festivity for the "pagans" hence SUNday.

over time, people gravitated toward the more joyous occasion and the "jewish" sabbath was left behind. most catholic scholars will tell you, there is NO biblical support for changing the day of worship from saturday (sabbath) to sunday. it was with the authority of the pope that the catholic church changed the day of worship.

 

[BigToque]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Spamela
let's see:

there's one Catholic church, founded by Christ,
with 2000 years of tradition and >1 Billion followers today,
that decided what would be in the Bible.

so, i'd say Catholics are Christians.
your theology would have to be pretty idiosyncratic or
just plain broken to say they're not.

if you claim otherwise, then you have to explain Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

if you want to understand Catholic beliefs or have questions, then go speak with a
Priest or a local Church's director of religious education.

and how does that verse prove the catholic church?? the catholic church as we know it didn't come about till about 300 years AFTER the death and ressurection of christ.

christ asked his disciples to take leadership.

also, the use of the word rock there was a play on his name peter. it was the greek word commonly used to symbolize pebble, not the word Boulder that was used when describing christs relationship to the church as it's foundation rock.

the catholic church as we know it was founded by Constantine.

The Catholic church as you know it, is the SAME church that existed when Jesus was around. When Jesus was around, the church was united as one. It wasn't until 300 years later (this according to your time frame - I don't know exact dates) that it became "The Catholic Church" (Catholic meaning "True" or "Universal" or "United") separate from other denominations when all of these people started to branch off because they didn't like the rules they had to follow.

The Roman Catholic denomination is the first church of Jesus Christ. Every other Christian denomination is merely a branch off of the Roman Catholics.

 

[Mikealot]

Catholics do not pray to saints or Mary or anyone, they ask the souls of the saints to pray on their behalf. It's like a guy who needs help, so he asks a bunch of his friends to help him out. Catholics ask Saints to pray for them while ALSO and primarily praying to God. Don't get a false impression. We still only pray to God, only ask God for forgiveness, etc. Confession offers an outlet for us, the priest represents humanity, against which we've sinned, and obviously, sins against God, God can surely represent himself. The priest offers solice on behalf of humanity, but only God can forgive us. Please don't distort a religion you do not belong to. I have never once even thought any other Christian was anything less than a brother or sister in Christ, I do not understand why people must do this.