Catholics are not Christians?

[Netopia]

God is solely the concoction of man's mind.

And you have VERIFIABLE PROOF that the universe and reality are not simply a concoction of your mind? How would you set about proving that? It would seem to me that the best that has ever been accomplished is "I think, therefore I am." But that's as far as it goes... you can't "prove" that anything exists outside of your own mind.

How... for instance... would you "prove" that you are not currently in a mental hospital having a delusion and that all of this is no more than an intricate creation of your mind? The Matix made a good point of this... there is NO WAY to "KNOW" that what we see, hear, feel, taste, experience... whatever... is real. We take the reality as a point of faith... ALL OF US.

Joe

 

[conjur]

And there goes our first victim down the "slippery slope"!

 

[plastick]

My input: Some Catholics are Christians some aren't. Some Christians that say they are Christians really are, and some actually aren't. God looks at the Heart.

 

[plastick]

Originally posted by: Netopia

God is solely the concoction of man's mind.

And you have VERIFIABLE PROOF that the universe and reality are not simply a concoction of your mind? How would you set about proving that? It would seem to me that the best that has ever been accomplished is "I think, therefore I am." But that's as far as it goes... you can't "prove" that anything exists outside of your own mind.

How... for instance... would you "prove" that you are not currently in a mental hospital having a delusion and that all of this is no more than an intricate creation of your mind? The Matix made a good point of this... there is NO WAY to "KNOW" that what we see, hear, feel, taste, experience... whatever... is real. We take the reality as a point of faith... ALL OF US.

Joe

But you know that there is something. You know that you don't know anything for 100% sure. You know that you are concious because you are thinking. Thats an absolute.

 

[Netopia]

But you know that there is something. You know that you don't know anything for 100% sure. You know that you are concious because you are thinking. Thats an absolute.

Decent logic... can't argue it!

Joe

 

[plastick]

thanks

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp
Catholics are Christians, of course, but they are not the very first Christians.

That would belong to the Orthodox.

Catholics and Orthodox split off in 1054 I believe

Being Catholic, this stuck me as odd, so I asked my parish priest about it. His response (cut and pasted from email):

"Christian is a generic term that refers to "one that follows the teachings of Christ." Catholics were the original Christians as the practice of Catholicism mirrors the exact instructions that Jesus gave us on how to live and celebrate our lives. The Catholic mass is based around Jesus' last supper, in which he stated "Do this in memory of me." To this day, we drink remembrance of his gift upon the world. All other Christian religions have branched off from the Catholic faith due to various reasons. An excellent source for this type of information on the Internet is at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen . This is a Catholic Encyclopedia I frequently use to check dates, facts, and other things for my sermons. Any other information you may need could probably be found there. Please feel free to stop by my office if you would like to have a discussion about Catholic history."

So, there you have it.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Stefan
Jesus gave Peter and all successive Popes the authoirty to create these rules (Whatever they may be).

Stefan I'm sorry that that is what you are getting out of this thread as that is not stated anywhere in the Bible.

I think he mis-spoke. The pope is assigned to enforce the teachings of the church. Rules can be created as situations arise in order to preserve the original beliefs of the church. A good modern example of this would be human cloning: people 2000 years ago couldn't have conceived of this, but the pope had to make a ruling on it to show that life is sacred and should not be artificially tampered with, therefore the Catholic Church is against it. I don't think he meant "The Pope makes rules as he sees fit."

 

[plastick]

Not that I am trying to argue here.. But being catholic has nothing to do with wether or not you are a saved Christian. As long as you have turned from sin and towards God by follow his son Jesus, you are a saved Christian. Keep seeking God with hunger and passion and he will continue to guide you and change you into a new person. It takes a life time.

 

[Rio Rebel]

This discussion doesn't make any sense to me.

The generally accepted definition of a "Christian" is a follower of Christ. Catholics are certainly followers of Christ as they understand what it means. Some groups certainly do not consider Catholics to be following Christ, and would therefore not call them "Christians", but that is a doctrinal dispute.

Catholics consider themselves Christians, believe themselves to be following Christ, and certainly would be offended at the notion that they are not Christians. So what is the point of the question - to determine whether some particular fundamentalist group defines them as "Christian"?

 

[ShyguyMX6]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
This discussion doesn't make any sense to me.

The generally accepted definition of a "Christian" is a follower of Christ. Catholics are certainly followers of Christ as they understand what it means. Some groups certainly do not consider Catholics to be following Christ, and would therefore not call them "Christians", but that is a doctrinal dispute.

Catholics consider themselves Christians, believe themselves to be following Christ, and certainly would be offended at the notion that they are not Christians. So what is the point of the question - to determine whether some particular fundamentalist group defines them as "Christian"?

Most of them are a bunch of hypocrites, they say Catholics don't see other Christ Faith religions as "True" Christian, so in turn they repeat the process back towards the Catholics, further distancing the rift between christian's , one of the reasons "our" faith is not the largest in the world, all right people The reason a lot of Catholics "believe" you are not true christians, is not how you worship god, but the fact that your faith branched off from theirs, in the same way some of the Orthodox view the Catholics.

LISTEN UP PEOPLE, IT DOESN"T MATTER HOW YOU WORSHIP GOD IN CHRISTIANITY, BUT WHETHER YOU DO OR NOT, NOT HOW, SO QUIT THE BICKERING ABOUT WHO IS TRUE CHRISTIAN & WHO IS NOT, WE ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD IN THE END. THATS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS.

This all started because one ignorant A-hole started spouting off his mouth about something so trivial that it doesn't matter. Lets put an end to this & just put this matter to rest. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dexion]

Originally posted by: plastick
My input: Some Catholics are Christians some aren't. Some Christians that say they are Christians really are, and some actually aren't. God looks at the Heart.

Or better, your soul.

 

[Dexion]

Originally posted by: ShyguyMX6

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
This discussion doesn't make any sense to me.

The generally accepted definition of a "Christian" is a follower of Christ. Catholics are certainly followers of Christ as they understand what it means. Some groups certainly do not consider Catholics to be following Christ, and would therefore not call them "Christians", but that is a doctrinal dispute.

Catholics consider themselves Christians, believe themselves to be following Christ, and certainly would be offended at the notion that they are not Christians. So what is the point of the question - to determine whether some particular fundamentalist group defines them as "Christian"?

Most of them are a bunch of hypocrites, they say Catholics don't see other Christ Faith religions as "True" Christian, so in turn they repeat the process back towards the Catholics, further distancing the rift between christian's , one of the reasons "our" faith is not the largest in the world, all right people The reason a lot of Catholics "believe" you are not true christians, is not how you worship god, but the fact that your faith branched off from theirs, in the same way some of the Orthodox view the Catholics.

LISTEN UP PEOPLE, IT DOESN"T MATTER HOW YOU WORSHIP GOD IN CHRISTIANITY, BUT WHETHER YOU DO OR NOT, NOT HOW, SO QUIT THE BICKERING ABOUT WHO IS TRUE CHRISTIAN & WHO IS NOT, WE ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD IN THE END. THATS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS.

This all started because one ignorant A-hole started spouting off his mouth about something so trivial that it doesn't matter. Lets put an end to this & just put this matter to rest. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think that made it any better.

 

[plastick]

Most of them are a bunch of hypocrites, they say Catholics don't see other Christ Faith religions as "True" Christian, so in turn they repeat the process back towards the Catholics, further distancing the rift between christian's , one of the reasons "our" faith is not the largest in the world, all right people The reason a lot of Catholics "believe" you are not true christians, is not how you worship god, but the fact that your faith branched off from theirs, in the same way some of the Orthodox view the Catholics.

LISTEN UP PEOPLE, IT DOESN"T MATTER HOW YOU WORSHIP GOD IN CHRISTIANITY, BUT WHETHER YOU DO OR NOT, NOT HOW, SO QUIT THE BICKERING ABOUT WHO IS TRUE CHRISTIAN & WHO IS NOT, WE ALL WORSHIP THE SAME GOD IN THE END. THATS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS.

This all started because one ignorant A-hole started spouting off his mouth about something so trivial that it doesn't matter. Lets put an end to this & just put this matter to rest. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your talking pretty cocky for a guy with only 15 posts...

and it does matter.. Many people dont understand things. so thats why we discuss them. if it annoys you, don't read the thread.

And now to reply to somewhere above..
If you are a Catholic and live by what the bible (NT) says, you are a Catholic Christian. Same goes if you are just a Christian. Its not that hard to understand.. if Im a guitar player who plays guitar, I'm a guitar player. If I know how to play guitar but I never do, I am not a guitar player anymore (since i do not play guitar).. Same goes if I don't know how to play guitar. That would deffinately make me a non-guitar player. If I play hard core death metal style guitar, I am a guitar player. If I play light jazz on my guitar, I'm still a guitar player.

 

[ShyguyMX6]

So what your saying is I don't have the right to be cocky, assuming that i was, because I had 15 posts, HUH? So I guess that would make you cocky compared to others with a 1ooo or more, Right?

I wasn't being cocky I was just making a point, a simple & straight to the point answer, That it doesn't matter HOW, but whether you do or not, the same as your little guitar analogy, if any one was being cocky it was you, claiming that i was cocky, but then to go on & make an anology, that basically was the same as what I said, & act like your answer was better.

As for the bit about reading the posts & if it annoyed me then don't read the thread, sounds pretty hypocritcal to me, being what i said obviously annoyed you, to call me cocky, then maybe you shouldn't have read it, or better yet not even reply to it, RIGHT!!!!

 

[plastick]

Originally posted by: ShyguyMX6
So what your saying is I don't have the right to be cocky, assuming that i was, because I had 15 posts, HUH? So I guess that would make you cocky compared to others with a 1ooo or more, Right?

I wasn't being cocky I was just making a point, a simple & straight to the point answer, That it doesn't matter HOW, but whether you do or not, the same as your little guitar analogy, if any one was being cocky it was you, claiming that i was cocky, but then to go on & make an anology, that basically was the same as what I said, & act like your answer was better.

As for the bit about reading the posts & if it annoyed me then don't read the thread, sounds pretty hypocritcal to me, being what i said obviously annoyed you, to call me cocky, then maybe you shouldn't have read it, or better yet not even reply to it, RIGHT!!!!

Dude.. calm down. This is just the internet. lol

..and now that i think of it, 15 post compared to 200 posts is a big diffeerence. 200 compared to 2000 is even bigger. But 200 is still a lot more than 15. So the 200 people have you beat by a lot and the 2000 have you beat by even more.
So no matter how you look at it, you have a lot less posts than any of us. lol

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Stefan
The Catholic church as you know it, is the SAME church that existed when Jesus was around. When Jesus was around, the church was united as one. It wasn't until 300 years later (this according to your time frame - I don't know exact dates) that it became "The Catholic Church" (Catholic meaning "True" or "Universal" or "United") separate from other denominations when all of these people started to branch off because they didn't like the rules they had to follow.

The Roman Catholic denomination is the first church of Jesus Christ. Every other Christian denomination is merely a branch off of the Roman Catholics.

So much for pondering on what I had said in this post...

Originally posted by: Stefan

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
Mattew 16:
13: Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
14: And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15: He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16: Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17: And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

He is not telling Peter that Peter is the rock on which he will build His church, he is stating that the fact that his comment, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." is the rock that he will build His church. This is further reinforced but the second part of the sentence where Jesus says, "the powers of death shall not prevail against it." This foreshadows his death on the cross and resurrection 3 days later. He is the son of God and death will not overpower him.

I didn't mean anything by quoting him and not you, so please don't take it to be offensive lemme take in what you've just said.

The Catholic Church is NOT the same church. Was the word "Catholic" ever even mentioned in the entire Bible once? No. Was there ever discussion that Peter would be the Pope? No (read the above quote post).

The Catholic Church was created this way in simple terms:

A bunch of churches (different congregations of Christ's church) existed. The heads of these churches (elders/biships/whatever you wish to call them) thought themselves that they should come together and discuss their situations at their own congregations. Well, with this other group together there had to be a leader, thus this leader of the leaders was created and known today as the Pope. Peter was not Pope, (Pope was never mentioned once in the Bible either). Peter did not give another person the title of Pope to continue. Also, the Pope is also refered to as the "Holy Father". Blasphemy. The only person ever called Holy Father in the entire bible was God himself from Jesus in prayer. How dare a man take that title from God?

Next point: There is no need for the Catholic church to still goven what is right and wrong. Here are verses to back me up:

Galations 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

It sound like with the Catholic church and their "clergy" changing the rules as ages pass, they are preaching a different gospel and should be accursed.

That's why people like me go back to the original word to what Jesus and the apostles taught and follow it the best we can as that is what we are commanded to do in the above verses.

Conclusion: Catholic Church was not the first church. It was created by man who thought change was necessary, even though they were told that if they change the gospel, they would be accursed.

I really think that people ignore me. Respond to my post please, as it clarifies a LOT.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: ShyguyMX6
So what your saying is I don't have the right to be cocky, assuming that i was, because I had 15 posts, HUH? So I guess that would make you cocky compared to others with a 1ooo or more, Right?

I wasn't being cocky I was just making a point, a simple & straight to the point answer, That it doesn't matter HOW, but whether you do or not, the same as your little guitar analogy, if any one was being cocky it was you, claiming that i was cocky, but then to go on & make an anology, that basically was the same as what I said, & act like your answer was better.

As for the bit about reading the posts & if it annoyed me then don't read the thread, sounds pretty hypocritcal to me, being what i said obviously annoyed you, to call me cocky, then maybe you shouldn't have read it, or better yet not even reply to it, RIGHT!!!!

If it doesn't matter how we worship why does the bible give us certain rules on how to worship God and how to live and etc.?

 

[Stojakapimp]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: Stojakapimp
Catholics are Christians, of course, but they are not the very first Christians.

That would belong to the Orthodox.

Catholics and Orthodox split off in 1054 I believe

Being Catholic, this stuck me as odd, so I asked my parish priest about it. His response (cut and pasted from email):

"Christian is a generic term that refers to "one that follows the teachings of Christ." Catholics were the original Christians as the practice of Catholicism mirrors the exact instructions that Jesus gave us on how to live and celebrate our lives. The Catholic mass is based around Jesus' last supper, in which he stated "Do this in memory of me." To this day, we drink remembrance of his gift upon the world. All other Christian religions have branched off from the Catholic faith due to various reasons. An excellent source for this type of information on the Internet is at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen . This is a Catholic Encyclopedia I frequently use to check dates, facts, and other things for my sermons. Any other information you may need could probably be found there. Please feel free to stop by my office if you would like to have a discussion about Catholic history."

So, there you have it.

Well either sect is going to say that their religion is the oldest. Just type in Orthodox or Orthodox Christian in Google and you'll find thousands of sites relating to Orthodoxy being the oldest Christian religion.

You have to understand that one of the greatest difference between Catholics and Orthodox is the idea of the papacy. In Orthodoxy, we have Bishops, who are not infallible like the pope. Before the Schism, Bishops were also referred to as popes. So back then there were 5 popes of the 5 major areas (I can't remember them all). Well in 1054, the pope (or Bishop) of Rome declared himself a higher authority than the other 4 bishops and thus the Great Schism began. After that, Orthodoxy and Catholicism grew farther apart, such as the Filioque and more "minor" theoligical views.

But yes, Orthodoxy also mirrors the instructions to act out our faith. The center of our liturgies is revolved around the Eurachist, but there are many more sacraments that we have have to live out our faith.

 

[ShyguyMX6]

Word Of Advice: I don't take it lightly when i try to help, & get shot down like that!!!

 

[ITJunkie]

Originally posted by: anxi80
catholics pray to the virgin mary, christians do not (i believe). they are other similarities like this to distinguish the two, but thats the quickest one i could come up with off the top of my head.

No...Catholics have a prayer for the Virgin Mary. Yes they are christians

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: ShyguyMX6
Word Of Advice: I don't take it lightly when i try to help, & get shot down like that!!!

then quit telling lies.

 

[Yzzim]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Netopia


Yup.... a person's name was special... but more than that, something our society seems to have forgotten (look at the divorce rate) a person's WORD was something held as sacred.

I find it interesting that in Revelation it says that God will give to each a small stone and on that stone is written our secret name... known before that point to only God. Interesting... God has a unique and individual name for each of us just like our DNA or fingerprints are unique, when God thinks of us He calls us by name... but not our name here but our real an unique name. Wonder what it sounds like... if it's anything like an Earthly language... what it means....

Joe

Umm...yeah...right. God has a physical stone with the "name" of each of the ~6,000,000,000 people alive today and the countless millions who've gone before us.

Ok, people....the Book of Revelation was never meant to be taken literally. It's purely symbolic!

Have a verse to back that up?

Are you saying the letters to the seven churches are purely symbolic too?

 

[ShyguyMX6]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: ShyguyMX6
Word Of Advice: I don't take it lightly when i try to help, & get shot down like that!!!

then quit telling lies.

?

 

[ShyguyMX6]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: ShyguyMX6
So what your saying is I don't have the right to be cocky, assuming that i was, because I had 15 posts, HUH? So I guess that would make you cocky compared to others with a 1ooo or more, Right?

I wasn't being cocky I was just making a point, a simple & straight to the point answer, That it doesn't matter HOW, but whether you do or not, the same as your little guitar analogy, if any one was being cocky it was you, claiming that i was cocky, but then to go on & make an anology, that basically was the same as what I said, & act like your answer was better.

As for the bit about reading the posts & if it annoyed me then don't read the thread, sounds pretty hypocritcal to me, being what i said obviously annoyed you, to call me cocky, then maybe you shouldn't have read it, or better yet not even reply to it, RIGHT!!!!

If it doesn't matter how we worship why does the bible give us certain rules on how to worship God and how to live and etc.?

The HOW was referring to the different types of Christian religions, Catholic, Lutheren, Methodist. Baptist, etc., etc. That was the HOW part, each one worships the Christian God differently, I thought most people would make the connection when I said HOW being we're talking about whether Catholics or other Christian's are real Christians, blah, blah, blah, I guess not. Probably should have made it more clear.