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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
ROTFLMAO

This is your classic flamebait thread right here.

btw does anybody see how ironic this is? ATI fanbois thining this is a great hack that give artifacts and not a mathematical equivalent result. But when Nvidia did this they were the devil?

I am going to sit back and laugh at this one.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
91
Originally posted by: Genx87
ROTFLMAO

This is your classic flamebait thread right here.

btw does anybody see how ironic this is? ATI fanbois thining this is a great hack that give artifacts and not a mathematical equivalent result. But when Nvidia did this they were the devil?

I am going to sit back and laugh at this one.



Mind if I join you? LOL
 

Curley

Senior member
Oct 30, 1999
368
3
76
Your choice of topic titles has much to be desired. Its nothing but flaimbait. Specific code paths for different cards was something that Carmack has said he wanted to avoid. Optimizations of this nature can probably be done for ATI and Nvidia, but then you'll end up with different code paths doubling QA and support. Seems like a mess best avoided, as the common gains seem to be around 5-15% for users, which could be gained just as easily by lowering resolution/quality settings. It also breaks internet play with pure servers.

I understand the alure for increasing framerates, but to question JC's integrity seems out of line.

Quote by Childs[/quote]

I agree that my choice of topics has much to be desired.

Setting optimizations and controlling benchmarks to make one piece of hardware or another look better is what I found irritating.

The ATI HL2 benchmark ordeal is the same.

As far as doubling QA and support, that is as hard to believe as my choice of topic titles.

New York Times, August 5, 2004

New York Times,

New York Times CNET

"Carmack said the original "Doom" game took five to six people less than a year to design and cost less than $1 million. In contrast, "Doom 3" took 25 people four years to make and cost as much as $14 million."

"Carmack conceded that he had farmed out some of the game's programming tasks to other engineers in the company. "I wasn't actually cramming so much as I had been in previous ones," he said. "I had my code working solidly quite some time ago. It was a different process."

I don't think there is one specific person responsible but the industry as a whole needs an integrity check.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Originally posted by: Hardcore
This is the updated tweak: http://esprit.campus.luth.se/~humus/temp/doom3PerformanceTweak.rar

That tweak isn't any better than the original tweak. To test the new tweak, I undid the original tweak (back to original settings).

before
first: 29.2
second: 34.4
third: 34.6

after
first: 35.4
second: 39.9
third: 40.0

40 fps is what I got with the original tweak.

That looks similar to my gains... the updated tweak wasn't suppose to improve performance over the first one, it was to help with the secular artifacts.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
ROTFLMAO

This is your classic flamebait thread right here.

btw does anybody see how ironic this is? ATI fanbois thining this is a great hack that give artifacts and not a mathematical equivalent result. But when Nvidia did this they were the devil?

I am going to sit back and laugh at this one.


So what's wrong with people trying to get more performance out of their cards? It doesn't give artifacts, not with the new tweak. If you read the thread and heard the response from JC, he even states he doesn't find any artifacts... and he admits that there are two rendering paths for nvidia and ati.

Really, do you people lack that much self-esteem in real life, that you have to take it in the form of a videocard? Yes, you have nvidia, good for you, and hopefully my next card will be a 6800GT... but is it really that threatening to you that somebody else might be getting some good performance out of their card as well?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Actually I find the hypocrisy rather funny.

1 year ago we had Nvidia giving out driver tweaks that gave artifacts on a certain frame. You also needed people to circle the difference in the frame to notice. Nvidia was proclaimed the devil for cheating.

Now you have an ATI employee releasing a hack that doesnt give a mathematical equivalent and it is proclaimed that ID is working against ATI.

Now if ATI sent out this unofficial driver hack how would your feelings be about this?
 

thelanx

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2000
3,299
0
0
Have any of you tried before and after tweak, and with adn without AF to see if AF is another factor in performance here?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Apparently you will gain the most performance using 8xAF.

Has something to do with the way ATI applies AF.
 

Manzelle

Golden Member
Oct 6, 2003
1,396
0
0
I don't know if it improved performance but because I edited the .pk4 file I am no longer allowed to join multiplayer games...had to copy the original from the CD...pfft...
 

Marsumane

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2004
1,171
0
0
Originally posted by: CaiNaM
it's simply an inflammatory title to a post which spreads FUD by taking things out of context...

jc simply didn't want to code seperate paths for different hardware, rather std arb2 as he stated he was going to do some time ago. does ati gain performance? sure.. a couple fps in most cases; apparently not really enough for jc to justify increased coding, q&a, etc. to code different paths. it's not at all that big of a deal - and certainly not enough to accuse jc/id of bias.

Dont have much time, but the above pretty much sums up my thoughts.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: Genx87
Apparently you will gain the most performance using 8xAF.

Has something to do with the way ATI applies AF.

It was probably using real af instead of their driver adaptive bs.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
I don't think there is one specific person responsible but the industry as a whole needs an integrity check.

or you could remove the tinfoil hat...

How long has this game been out? A week? I imagine that there will be patches that come out in the future that will increase performance and solve other problems as well. I do not see any integrity issues with id at this point.

In the grand scheme of things, not that many people read hardware review sites, so if id really wanted to promote nVidia, do you think they would need to make their code work better for nVidia and then allow some website that only attracts hardware enthusiasts to run a few tests to get this point across? No... They could simply put a big nVidia logo on their game, which would most likely have a greater effect and reach way more people. However, they didn't do that...

Also, there is simply no reason for id to do what you are implying. What exactly do they stand to gain if the game runs better on nVidia hardware? They gain much more by putting out a game that runs great on the largest number of computers.
 

rbV5

Lifer
Dec 10, 2000
12,632
0
0
What exactly do they stand to gain if the game runs better on nVidia hardware? They gain much more by putting out a game that runs great on the largest number of computers.
:thumbsup:
 

beserker15

Senior member
Jun 24, 2003
820
0
0
yeah, this patch is great for all radeon users who weren't happy with their doom3 performance... there's no reason to accuse anyone... basides, maybe after a few patches, the gameplay might even be better...
 

Curley

Senior member
Oct 30, 1999
368
3
76
I took the thread name from Beyond 3D forum. If you say the thread name is inflamatory, talk to The Reverend or Humus at beyond 3D.

If this is such a bad thread, request the administrator lock it.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Carmack said himself that ATi 95xx+ would use ARB2 beacuse optimizations made very little difference without hindering image quality, which you could get similar results by just reducing the settings.

Just because its called "ultra" quality doesnt mean that after IQ hacks and whatever else this guy does, it looks the same as intended.

Just play it on the correct setting and be happy.
 

gmallen

Junior Member
Aug 7, 2004
1
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Actually I find the hypocrisy rather funny.

1 year ago we had Nvidia giving out driver tweaks that gave artifacts on a certain frame. You also needed people to circle the difference in the frame to notice. Nvidia was proclaimed the devil for cheating.

Now you have an ATI employee releasing a hack that doesnt give a mathematical equivalent and it is proclaimed that ID is working against ATI.

Now if ATI sent out this unofficial driver hack how would your feelings be about this?

One: While Humus is an ATI employee, a cursory glance at his posts will tell you this is not an ATI official product. Two: Carmack has already agreed (3DRage forum) that the tweak works and is an improvement -- no attempt to suppress ATI cards there.
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
I took the thread name from Beyond 3D forum. If you say the thread name is inflamatory, talk to The Reverend or Humus at beyond 3D.

If this is such a bad thread, request the administrator lock it.
This thread is absolutley not bad, and if the tweaks help out some folks it's a good thing. I think the issue most people have with your thread is your accusitory tone and the FUD it generates. Not everything that isn't perfect in the world is the result of a conspiracy.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,313
7
81
Originally posted by: Curley
I took the thread name from Beyond 3D forum. If you say the thread name is inflamatory, talk to The Reverend or Humus at beyond 3D.

If this is such a bad thread, request the administrator lock it.

heh...Reverend even states on like page 15-17 that the title was misleading. Guess Humus was a little excited. Your description underneath the topic title seemed to be all your own.

As far as doubling QA and support, that is as hard to believe as my choice of topic titles.

"Carmack conceded that he had farmed out some of the game's programming tasks to other engineers in the company. "I wasn't actually cramming so much as I had been in previous ones," he said. "I had my code working solidly quite some time ago. It was a different process."

Its not that hard to believe IMO. He finished his part early, and if he had to write code paths for each architechure it would have taken longer, and validating that everything looked the same on each code path would take more time as well. Not just for JC, but for the artists and QA as well. People at B3d are reporting varying degrees of artifacting and great to no framerate improvements, so was it really worth the hassle to id? To get the same improvements in framerate all they have to do is drop the resolution. This seems to effect only 9800+, so wheres the cutoff in your optimizations? Why not write a new path for the 9200 and the GF4MX?

Eventually you have to ship something. Yeah, it would be great if the game ran great on your (not specifically you) specific hardware, but its takes more resources to do that. His ARB2 path is equivilant on all cards, which is what one would hope for IMO, and the only thing that really changes is framerate at a given resolution. What would be nice was if there was a way for this specific modified shader to be validated by pure servers for online play. Mucking with shaders will leads to cheats tho, but I'm sure they could implement two possible CRCs for that specific shader and not lead to some sort of exploit.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Actually I find the hypocrisy rather funny.

1 year ago we had Nvidia giving out driver tweaks that gave artifacts on a certain frame. You also needed people to circle the difference in the frame to notice. Nvidia was proclaimed the devil for cheating.

Now you have an ATI employee releasing a hack that doesnt give a mathematical equivalent and it is proclaimed that ID is working against ATI.

Now if ATI sent out this unofficial driver hack how would your feelings be about this?

First, this was simply an ATI employee doing this of his own will, oh his own game, and tweaking it himself on his own time, and sharing it under his own name. NOT under ATI.

As for your last point of ATI releasing this 'unofficial driver hack'.... they haven't like i said, Humus simply shared his knowledge with the community. And Carmack himself has tested it and said that it could give significant improvement (20% or so) with no loss of IQ as far as he could tell.

The Nvidia scandal was purposely done... they knew that the release would decrease IQ, but their scores were so bad they were willing to risk it, thinking most people only cared about FPS. This isn't an offficial release, it's a tweak that up until yesterday, you had to do manually. Maybe Humus released the information a little too early, but he certainly didn't announce it as anything official.

You know what i suggest you guys do? Accomplish something in real life. That way you won't have to live vicariously through your videocards.
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
btw does anybody see how ironic this is? ATI fanbois thining this is a great hack that give artifacts and not a mathematical equivalent result. But when Nvidia did this they were the devil?
You might want to refine your sense of irony. When nV substituted shaders in 3DM03, they did so without telling anyone until they were caught, they used their whole company to discredit 3DM03, and they never once apologized for cheating in a benchmark.

In this case, Humus may be an ATi employee, but he's posting this b/c it's his hobby, not b/c it's his job. ATi hasn't commented publicly on this, they haven't called JC inept and his algorithms not indicative of the rest of the industry, and the intent of Humus' tweak (and thread) was not to inflate benchmark scores, but to improve realworld performance. You can play Doom 3. You can't play 3DM03.

Nice try, though. Wait--no, it wasn't.

Actually I find the hypocrisy rather funny.

1 year ago we had Nvidia giving out driver tweaks that gave artifacts on a certain frame. You also needed people to circle the difference in the frame to notice. Nvidia was proclaimed the devil for cheating.

Now you have an ATI employee releasing a hack that doesnt give a mathematical equivalent and it is proclaimed that ID is working against ATI.

Now if ATI sent out this unofficial driver hack how would your feelings be about this?
Why are you pandering to the lowest common denominator in this discussion? nV never "gave out" driver tweaks, it basically slipped them into its drivers without telling anyone. nV certainly was cheating, though the devil comment is hyperbolic fanboy talk.

Hyperbolic fanboy talk also results in people claiming "ID is working against ATI." Why do you bother listening to people ignorant or biased enough to make such statements? Do you enjoy bringing this forum down to the level of soccer hooligans? Who or what exactly is the "it" that is proclaiming that "ID is working against ATI," BTW? Surely you can't mean ATI itself, as it hasn't commented on this--but then, who?

Apparently you will gain the most performance using 8xAF.

Has something to do with the way ATI applies AF.
This I agree with. Maybe it's because Humus' substitution uses math rather than texture lookups, thus freeing the card to do more AF accesses. Or maybe ATi is "optimizing" its AF access in Doom 3.
 

Curley

Senior member
Oct 30, 1999
368
3
76
"You know what i suggest you guys do? Accomplish something in real life. That way you won't have to live vicariously through your videocards." Hardcore

You have close to 12,000 posts. I think you should re-evaluated you statement, and or list your accomplishments in real life so you can give us some examples.

Maybe I did think that there was something going on, 14 million dollars, 25 employees working on the game, and 4 years to complete. I guess I was wrong and I will never find the weapons of mass destruction.
 

kami

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
17,627
5
81
I tried the latest tweaks/changes on my 9800 Pro and there is no visual artifacts on my end, I simply can't find any.

And better yet, big frame rate boost. Timedemo results:

Before the tweak:

1024x768/Medium/No Aniso filtering = 43fps
1024x768/Medium/8x Aniso filtering = 36fps

After the Tweak
1024x768/Medium/No Aniso filtering = 47fps
1024x768/Medium/8x Aniso filtering = 47fps

So not only a 4fps boost, but I get FREE 8x aniso!!!!

Great tweak
 
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