chiropractor

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Citrix
you can easily find worse/more horror stories invoving doctors and nurses.

Because they actually deal with necessary risks that involve death. Chiro's deal with non-threatening issues that often end up with their client as a patient in the ED.

there are plenty of examples of doctors accidently killing or causing serious bodily harm just by routine non life threating treatments. there was a repot published on this a few months ago.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but can you provide an example (from personal experience or not) of a non life-threatening treatment resulting in serious injury or death?

yip, my brother-in-laws back surgery. they were suppose to remove artheritc spurs. during the process they cut nerves and he has not worked due to sevear back pain and is prescribed metadone for pain managememt for the last 15 years.

 

[Wag]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but can you provide an example (from personal experience or not) of a non life-threatening treatment resulting in serious injury or death?

Quackwatch.org Chiro-Stroke

Reader Comment
From a former chiropractor:
I have been doing a vascular surgery rotation for the past month, which is part of my postgraduate medical education. During my chiropractic training, when the subject of manipulation-induced stroke was brought up, we were reassured that "millions of chiropractic adjustments are made each year and only a few incidents of stroke have been reported following neck manipulation." I recently found that two of the patients on my vascular service that suffered a cerebrovascular accident (stroke) had undergone neck manipulation by a chiropractor, one the day that sympotms had begun and the other four days afterward. If indeed the incidence of stroke is rare, one M.D. would see a case of manipulation-induced CVA about every 10 years. But I believe I have seen two in the past month! I therefore urge my medical colleagues to question their patients regarding recent visits to a chiropractor/neck manipulation when confronted with patients that present with the neurologic symptoms of stroke. I also urge potential chiropractic patients to not allow their necks to be manipulated in any way. The risk-to-benefit ratio is much too high to warrant such a procedure.


-- Rob Alexander, M.D.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Citrix
yip, my brother-in-laws back surgery. they were suppose to remove artheritc spurs. during the process they cut nerves and he has not worked due to sevear back pain and is prescribed metadone for pain managememt for the last 15 years.

Surgical decompression for spinal stenosis is not routine and non-threatening. Also, there is nothing a chiro can do for it.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Wag

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but can you provide an example (from personal experience or not) of a non life-threatening treatment resulting in serious injury or death?

Quackwatch.org Chiro-Stroke

Did ya read the thread?

 

[Wag]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
Did ya read the thread?

Yes. That is why we post links.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but can you provide an example (from personal experience or not) of a non life-threatening treatment resulting in serious injury or death?

hmmm, wasn't there a thread recently about a patient that died because of cleaning fluid injections?

to say or imply there are not MD's that are quacks is just stupid. there are a LOT of MD's that are quacks. there are some very good chiropractors also.

 

[Wag]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
to say or imply there are not MD's that are quacks is just stupid. there are a LOT of MD's that are quacks. there are some very good chiropractors also.

MD training is based in science, Chiro is not. Any chiro who you think are "good" are most likely just not causing you harm. There is no proof chiro can offer anything other than a short-term benefit.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Wag

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
to say or imply there are not MD's that are quacks is just stupid. there are a LOT of MD's that are quacks. there are some very good chiropractors also.

MD training is based in science, Chiro is not. Any chiro who you think are "good" are most likely just not causing you harm. There is no proof chiro can offer anything other than a short-term benefit.

you speak of short term relief as if it has no meaning.

"in the long run, we are all dead". short term does have meaning.

acupuncture also is just short term relief, but sometimes that short term relief aids in long term relief.

massages and heating pads are also only short term relief but they are both aids in long term cures.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but can you provide an example (from personal experience or not) of a non life-threatening treatment resulting in serious injury or death?

hmmm, wasn't there a thread recently about a patient that died because of cleaning fluid injections?

to say or imply there are not MD's that are quacks is just stupid. there are a LOT of MD's that are quacks. there are some very good chiropractors also.

I know there are MDs that are quacks, but chiropractors don't treat the problem, only alleviate the pain or cause damage, which the MDs have to fix. They can also shadow deeper, deadlier problem, such as a spinal hematoma. There's nothing a chiropractor can do for that, but instead of being treated properly, the client is lead to believe they are "on the right track." There a patients admitted daily at Baptist Memorial in Knoxville because of chiropractic causes.
Oh, and I'm fairly certain that the patient injected with antiseptic was injected by a nurse during pre-op.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but can you provide an example (from personal experience or not) of a non life-threatening treatment resulting in serious injury or death?

hmmm, wasn't there a thread recently about a patient that died because of cleaning fluid injections?

to say or imply there are not MD's that are quacks is just stupid. there are a LOT of MD's that are quacks. there are some very good chiropractors also.

I know there are MDs that are quacks, but chiropractors don't treat the problem, only alleviate the pain or cause damage, which the MDs have to fix. They can also shadow deeper, deadlier problem, such as a spinal hematoma. There's nothing a chiropractor can do for that, but instead of being treated properly, the client is lead to believe they are "on the right track." There a patients admitted daily at Baptist Memorial in Knoxville because of chiropractic causes.
Oh, and I'm fairly certain that the patient injected with antiseptic was injected by a nurse during pre-op.

ok, so no md's are quacks but nurses are. :roll:

who was that MD that fertilized all these women with his own sperm? hmmm.

in Econ class i read this article about 2 sons, a lawyer and an MD and their father who was also an MD. the father went in to have a tumor tested, he specifically left a signed letter with his sons stating that he didn't want any treatment if it was discovered to be cancer. he went in and never got out again. they diagnosed him with cancer and refused to release him. both his sons tried in vain to get their father released. in the end he died while going thru aggressive treatments.

ya, no quacks for sure.

the problems of our "established" medical institutions far exceed that of all the chiropractors put together.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I know there are MDs that are quacks, but chiropractors don't treat the problem, only alleviate the pain or cause damage, which the MDs have to fix. They can also shadow deeper, deadlier problem, such as a spinal hematoma. There's nothing a chiropractor can do for that, but instead of being treated properly, the client is lead to believe they are "on the right track." There a patients admitted daily at Baptist Memorial in Knoxville because of chiropractic causes.
Oh, and I'm fairly certain that the patient injected with antiseptic was injected by a nurse during pre-op.

ok, so no md's are quacks but nurses are. :roll:

who was that MD that fertilized all these women with his own sperm? hmmm.

in Econ class i read this article about 2 sons, a lawyer and an MD and their father who was also an MD. the father went in to have a tumor tested, he specifically left a signed letter with his sons stating that he didn't want any treatment if it was discovered to be cancer. he went in and never got out again. they diagnosed him with cancer and refused to release him. both his sons tried in vain to get their father released. in the end he died while going thru aggressive treatments.

ya, no quacks for sure.

the problems of our "established" medical institutions far exceed that of all the chiropractors put together.

Great reading comprehension there, jackass.
Oh, and a patient is allowed to deny treatment, they can't legally hold you. There's something more to that story.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I know there are MDs that are quacks, but chiropractors don't treat the problem, only alleviate the pain or cause damage, which the MDs have to fix. They can also shadow deeper, deadlier problem, such as a spinal hematoma. There's nothing a chiropractor can do for that, but instead of being treated properly, the client is lead to believe they are "on the right track." There a patients admitted daily at Baptist Memorial in Knoxville because of chiropractic causes.
Oh, and I'm fairly certain that the patient injected with antiseptic was injected by a nurse during pre-op.

ok, so no md's are quacks but nurses are. :roll:

who was that MD that fertilized all these women with his own sperm? hmmm.

in Econ class i read this article about 2 sons, a lawyer and an MD and their father who was also an MD. the father went in to have a tumor tested, he specifically left a signed letter with his sons stating that he didn't want any treatment if it was discovered to be cancer. he went in and never got out again. they diagnosed him with cancer and refused to release him. both his sons tried in vain to get their father released. in the end he died while going thru aggressive treatments.

ya, no quacks for sure.

the problems of our "established" medical institutions far exceed that of all the chiropractors put together.

Great reading comprehension there, jackass.
Oh, and a patient is allowed to deny treatment, they can't legally hold you. There's something more to that story.

way to go, how about taking it easy. :roll:

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
way to go, how about taking it easy. :roll:

Back at ya.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
way to go, how about taking it easy. :roll:

Back at ya.

uhhhh, ok.

because i called you a name?

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
way to go, how about taking it easy. :roll:

Back at ya.

uhhhh, ok.

because i called you a name?

Rolling eyes, "jackass," all the same connotations.

:beer: I never mean anything personal in any insults. It's just what I do.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
way to go, how about taking it easy. :roll:

Back at ya.

uhhhh, ok.

because i called you a name?

Rolling eyes, "jackass," all the same connotations.

:beer: I never mean anything personal in any insults. It's just what I do.

even the law recognizes the difference between provoked and unprovoked. hence my ":roll:" doesn't have anywhere near the significance as your unprovoked "jackass" was.

btw, in case you haven't figured it out yet, i was responding to an ENTIRELY different phrase. next time why don't YOU read before going off the handle.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
btw, in case you haven't figured it out yet, i was responding to an ENTIRELY different phrase. next time why don't YOU read before going off the handle.

My statement was a clarification of yours, not stating that anyone group of people are more "quackish" than another, so you following statement had no relevance.

And, again, didn't fly off the handle. But I'm glad you know me so well.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
btw, in case you haven't figured it out yet, i was responding to an ENTIRELY different phrase. next time why don't YOU read before going off the handle.

My statement was a clarification of yours, not stating that anyone group of people are more "quackish" than another, so you following statement had no relevance.

And, again, didn't fly off the handle. But I'm glad you know me so well.

again, who is the more presumptious one? if it was irrelevant, fine it was, it doesn't warrant a "jackass". :roll:

it's very presumptious of you to assume anyone would respond a certain way to a word like "jackass".

that's why, in non verbal communication, it's usually better not to use it.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
btw, in case you haven't figured it out yet, i was responding to an ENTIRELY different phrase. next time why don't YOU read before going off the handle.

My statement was a clarification of yours, not stating that anyone group of people are more "quackish" than another, so you following statement had no relevance.

And, again, didn't fly off the handle. But I'm glad you know me so well.

again, who is the more presumptious one? if it was irrelevant, fine it was, it doesn't warrant a "jackass". :roll:

it's very presumptious of you to assume anyone would respond a certain way to a word like "jackass".

that's why, in non verbal communication, it's usually better not to use it.

I was wrong to use such a word in a non verbal setting, and I apologize.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
btw, in case you haven't figured it out yet, i was responding to an ENTIRELY different phrase. next time why don't YOU read before going off the handle.

My statement was a clarification of yours, not stating that anyone group of people are more "quackish" than another, so you following statement had no relevance.

And, again, didn't fly off the handle. But I'm glad you know me so well.

again, who is the more presumptious one? if it was irrelevant, fine it was, it doesn't warrant a "jackass". :roll:

it's very presumptious of you to assume anyone would respond a certain way to a word like "jackass".

that's why, in non verbal communication, it's usually better not to use it.

I was wrong to use such a word in a non verbal setting, and I apologize.

i'll be magnanimous and accept the apology

kudos and apologies for my use of the ":roll:"

 

[DrPizza]

Anyway, back on the subject,
There seems to be two avenues for chiropractic care: one which includes the quacks
and the other which denounces the quacks and only works from a scientific basis.

Incidentally, the rate of strokes following neck manipulation is between 1 in 2 million and 1 in 5 million.

Also, someone quoted some doctor above... the 2nd of the two cases he implies was when the person received chiropractic treatment 4 days AFTER the stroke?! - I could understand the mathematical/statistical ignorance present in that quote coming from a doctor... but to so poorly write what he was trying to say makes me doubtful it's really from a doctor.

There is a vast amount of data proving that chiropractic care has long term benefits for back and neck pain. There is no evidence that subluxation causes other diseases which can then be cured by chiropractic care - yet this is still the belief from the school of quackery.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Wag

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but can you provide an example (from personal experience or not) of a non life-threatening treatment resulting in serious injury or death?

Quackwatch.org Chiro-Stroke

Did ya read the thread?

yes i read it. If neck cracking is so dangerous, why doesnt the American Chiropractic Association ban it?

MD's have thier place
DC's have their place

they are two completely different SCIENCES of study.

 

[Wag]

Originally posted by: Citrix
yes i read it. If neck cracking is so dangerous, why doesnt the American Chiropractic Association ban it?

MD's have thier place
DC's have their place

they are two completely different SCIENCES of study.

Chiro ain't a science. Any "science" that claims that manipulating the spine can cure skin problems and viruses is pure BS. As long as they hold onto that element it will never be anything more than pure quackery.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Wag

Originally posted by: Citrix
yes i read it. If neck cracking is so dangerous, why doesnt the American Chiropractic Association ban it?

MD's have thier place
DC's have their place

they are two completely different SCIENCES of study.

Chiro ain't a science. Any "science" that claims that manipulating the spine can cure skin problems and viruses is pure BS. As long as they hold onto that element it will never be anything more than pure quackery.

read from the wiki link above... many of them DON'T hold onto that element any more... they're expected to denounce that branch of chiro before they can join... whichever acronymed group it was.... national something or other...

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Been having a LOT of headaches lately... all starting from the back of my neck/lower head area. Went to the doctor for an apparently related issue (blood pressure was up from stress one day) - the headaches were stress related.

Decided to give the chiropractor a shot. He cracked a few bones here and there, and then worked on my neck for a couple of minutes. He touched one spot on my neck and said "I'll bet this spot right here has been giving you headaches, huh?" Wow - Bingo! That was the exact center of them.

Woke up today, felt like a champ. No headache when waking for the first time in weeks. Slept really comfortably too - I had been blaming the bed and the pillow.

:thumbsup: to chiropractors (at least to mine)

I had a positive experience with a chiropractor after a tour when I screwed up my back. After laying in bed for two weeks the GF persuaded me to go with a friend to his Chiropractor. While in his office, one of the 49'ers stuck his head in to see if he was available. After introducing us, I went in for a "manipulation". It was relief. For the first time in 2 weeks I was able to walk upright and get in my car without looking as if I was in a body cast.
I subsequently had an experience with one whose hands were just too small to adequately cradle my head nad neck and never received the same level of relief. Another one I went to in Auburn had big "bear -like" hands and eventually relieved my pain to the point that I stopped going. BTW, they all acknowledged that there were those out there making claims above and beyond what the manipulations really can accomplish, and they never once claimed they could eliminate virii.
YMMV, just like with an MD. There are no guarantees of cures with ANY doctor.