Christian religious question

[Rakkis]

jsm: If I recall correctly, yeah.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think even angels are supposed to be able to discern between right and wrong.

 

[Engine]

>>That's the protestant version anyway.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that it's only the Calvinists who believe in predestination.

 

[UG]

In answer to the question originally asked, why does the last-minute believing murder get saved and not the non-murderer non-believer?

You're only being told that it is true that people get saved by believing in a god and accepting that god as their sole purpose in life. There is in fact no concrete proof in support of such a claim beyond faith that such a hypothesis is true, not even the offering of the faith's attendent collection of anecdotal morality plays intending the impression such faithful conclusions are logically inescapable.

You have to have faith it's all true, a faith which for so many is rewarded by the anticipation of pre-advertised eventual goodies to help the decision be so much easier to make, or scared into the faith by pre-advertised eventual punishments and goodies withheld in the event you're not quite as easily swayed to the faith as others.

The litmus test is do you have the faith?

If you're comfortable intellectually with the circumstance of not knowing absolute truth then you don't need such a faith, nor the rewards and punishments required for its marketability.

The original question is without moral contradiction when removed from a religious contect. A bad man is a bad man, a good man is a good man.

Only when one's faith is more important than the morals of another man can a bad man be better than a good man.

 

[cxim]

also to the origional post...

the murder can not get in just by asking... he has to have a real, honest & sincere desire to do so...

same applies to the other guy... good works are fo no effect.

You don't like the rules ? find another GOD !!!

 

[Netopia]

Jugernot, I hope that you understand that your atheism is just as much a faith based position as a believer. Unless you can absolutly prove that there is no God, you live a life of a "faithful believer" as an Christian, you just believe the opposite. This being the case, be careful not to point your finger and laugh too quickly, since your position is no more "logical" than you see theirs being.




<< BUT i dun like the fact that they actually refer to some book probably written 2000 years ago as their guide to life >>



<< and till there is proof of a god i am not gonna believe in one >>



How about statistical probability?

The &quot;Messiah&quot; has to meet certain criteria as outlined in the Old Testement, written centuries before Jesus of Nazareth was born, and yet all of these criteria came to be in His person.
He was a decendant of David; He was born in Bethlehem and yet refered to as one who is from Nazareth, a Prophet like Moses (escaped ruler who was killing infants, raised by stepfather, set his people free), would enter Jerusalem riding a donkey, would be killed with evil men (the thieves on either side), buried in the tomb of the rich (Joseph of Aramathea), would be killed in a way which left holes in His hands and feet; would have His clothes gambled for..... I could continue, but I don't have that kind of time. My point is, that Jesus could NOT have orchestrated whose line He came from or in what town He would be born. He DEFINITLY could not have set it up to be killed with thieves... nor could the writer of Psalm 22 have known CENTURIES before the Romans existed that those brutal people would invent a way of killing that involved nailing one's hands and feet.

There are many, many prophesies in the Old Testement... a document which even lay schoolars date well before the birth of Christ... which all came true in Jesus. What are the statistical probabilities that several writers over hundreds of years could all write things down and that ALL of them would come perfectly true in ONE PERSON just as each of them had said? How about in Daniel 9, where Daniel is told by an angel that although the Jews would be given permission to return to Isreal and rebuild the Temple, a Prince who is not born yet would come and totally destroy Jerusalem 490 years later but that before that, &quot;shall Messiah be cut off&quot;. In other words... Daniel was told that the Jews could rebuild their Temple(in the future...even though at that time they were all captives in Babylon) and that also in the future the Messiah would be killed, and then some other future power would come and destroy Jerusalem. ALL of this came to pass exactly as predicted..... again, statistics would say that the probability of all of these things happening just randomly is outside the realm of possibility... but they all happened. What I don't understand is how this evidense is completely ignored by most &quot;logical&quot; people.

Joe

 

[Netopia]

<< The original question is without moral contradiction when removed from a religious contect. A bad man is a bad man, a good man is a good man. >>


Not true. Without an absolute which can dictate what is good and what is bad, they don't exist. They are just false measurements defined by humanistic thinking. If there is not a supreme authority, then if I decide that rape and murder are &quot;good&quot; and you decide that they are &quot;bad&quot;, neither of us are wrong, since everything would just be opinion...nothing more. Only when a religious (or at least philosophical) context is entered into can things be judged as concretely right or wrong. And even then.... most are still just opinion.

Joe

 

[ArkAoss]

well, one branch of christianity believes there is no heaven or hell, christ died for all mankind, in their opinion, if the sinner had truly changed his heart, he would be resurected. the man who never went to church would be in the same plight. and if they both after this resurection accepted the truth about god, would be able to live forever on a new earth. pm me with any questions, as I'm just letting you know what my branch of christianity would say, and am not subscribing to this thread, as all vallhalla wanted was our opinion.

 

[UG]

<... atheism is just as much a faith based position as a believer...>

Hahaha. The religion of no religion. The faith of no faith.

I see no proof, I know no proof that someone else's god exists. Proof's absence is proof it is absent. Until such proof is no longer absent, I see no need to conclude a god exists. Where is faith an element of such a decision?

 

[UG]

<...false measurements defined by humanistic thinking...>

Society establishes its own laws and standards of acceptable behavior.
The questionably ascribed standards of an unprovable invisible are not the absolute standard I care to allow others to foist on me, no matter how flawed the laws of society might be considered by those who put more value in an unprovable invisible than in their fellow humans.

 

[Netopia]

I see no proof (that God does not exist), I know no proof that (no God exists). Proof's absence is proof it is absent. Until such proof is no longer absent, I see no need to conclude a god exists (not). Where is faith an element of such a decision?

As I said... an atheist is as much a faith based person as a believer... they just have faith in the opposite.

Joe

 

[Netopia]

<< Society establishes its own laws and standards of acceptable behavior. >>



In other words, you believe that &quot;Might Makes Right&quot;... whatever the majority of people choose is good and the minority view is bad, right? That is how societies in general work.

Joe

 

[ArkAoss]

cold is the absence of heat
darkness is the absence of light
death is the absence of life
depresion is the absence of happyness
so the evil of this world proves only that god isn't controlling things it doesnt prove that he never existed, just as darkness doesnt prove that light never existed. some people believe that thought there is a God right now he isn't activly controlling mankind, to let them prove to themselves that they can not rule without his aid. that's just what i believe based upon what I've read in the bible, again you might not trust that book. I'm justin stating what I've observed.

 

[I'm Typing]

It is so sad that all of the people who never hear the gospel of Christ are condemned to Hell. The Alaskan Innuit, the Chinese, Mongolians and peoples of Africa who have never heard about Christ are doomed to forever burn.

Your ever loving god makes me want to vomit.

 

[BoberFett]

Conincidentally, that's the same affect you have on a lot of people.

 

[Shuxclams]

Answer to #1 He is worm food.

Answer to #2 He is worm food too, but people show up to his funeral.

Vallhalla1, if you are displeased with the Christian belief and Religion and the way with which they deal with senarios such as these find a God or Faith that is more suited to your beliefs.

Joe,
I respect your right to your faith, I guess it just depends on which version of Christian belief you have that decides which way you will judge another man.











SHUX

 

[BoberFett]

UG

I think the point is, that until you've proven that there can be no god, it is a possibility. Proving the absence of something is difficult, but I'm sure that if you devoted every minute of the rest of your life to that pursuit, you might be able to do it. Of course, you wouldn't have time to post here anymore, but sometimes you need to make sacrifices in life.

 

[I'm Typing]

Bober: Coming from someone like YOU, I consider that statement High Praise. Thank you so much!

Those of you who like to play in your little sanctimonious sandbox are more than welcome to do so. We adults will watch from the sidelines and smile at your churlish behavior.

 

[TheOverlord]

it all comes down to faith...faith that God will do the right thing in the end...we cannot be sure exactly what will happen to anyone after they are dead, we can hold our beliefs of what will occur but in truth we dont know...perhaps man #2 can go to heaven if we pray for him (similar to Purgatory for the Catholics)...

logic and faith don't mix well and that is why if you try to logic out God you never quite can...
you must take a leap of faith that He will do what is right and just, and have faith in Him

 

[Dedpuhl]

<<...that until you've proven that there can be no god, it is a possibility...>>


Thats great. Oh yeah, the bible says that God cannot be seen....

Coincidence? I Think Not...

 

[Athanasius]

The question is loaded because it assumes a fundamental difference in nature between the &quot;death-bed repentant molester&quot; and the &quot;decent citizen&quot;. But genuine historical Christianity recognizes no fundamental difference in kind between the two men.

Before anyone goes ballistic, hear me out

Christianity recognizes no fundamental difference in kind between the two men. Historic Christianity holds that all of mankind has a terminal spiritual disease. The &quot;disease&quot; of sin is universal and the universal prognosis is that it is terminal for all men.

Historic Christianity does recognize that there is a huge difference in degree between the two men given in this example. The &quot;molester&quot; has stage four spiritual cancer. The &quot;decent man&quot; may not even have reached an easily discerned stage of illness. He may not even be officially &quot;stage one.&quot; The &quot;stage four&quot; molester's disease is epidemic; he is out of control and energizing the cancer through his evil deeds. In fact, one of the hardest things about a &quot;stage-four disease spreader&quot; (besides the heinousness of what he is doing) is that he challenges society to respond in a way that does not accelerate the spiritual cancer in us.

But, according to Scripture, we all are diseased; we all are terminal. The molester may be stage four advanced cancer, but I am cancerous as well. To fail to recognize this truth is the essence of self-righteousness. The Word of God is the chemotherapy that attacks and has the potential to remove the cancer; the Word is the only cure.

By &quot;Word&quot; I do not mean the Bible. I mean God's &quot;Logos,&quot; His expression of Himself. Read John 1:1-18. This Word is the true light that lights every man (John 1:9). Whatever love of truth, goodness, and decency that abides in humanity stays there because that Light shines in every human; without that light, our spiriutal cancer would rapidly spread. No one alive today has seen a society that diseased, violent, and destructive.

Those who love the light manifest God's grace. &quot;To those who by persistance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he (GOD) will give eternal life.&quot; (Romans 2:7).

We are spiritually malignant. We may feel fine, but we aren't. The human race is one body; if any human molests, that human is part of me. What he does reveals something about me. If I submit to the chemotherapy of God's Word, I can be cured. I won't have to be &quot;removed&quot; by radical cancer surgery. God's Word has already entered into the body of humanity. That &quot;invasion&quot; is named Jesus of Nazareth: Son of God and Son of Man.

If you love the light, it is Him you are loving, whether you know it or not. If you have ever lied, or sinned in even the most &quot;innocent&quot; way, you have revealed that the cancer is at work in you as well, whether you know it or not.

He came to call sinners, not the righteous. He came to call the sick, not the healthy. A man who doesn't believe he has cancer would never submit to the rigors of chemotherapy. Those who know they have spiritual cancer will at least consider it. That's why prostitutes (Mary Magdelene), white collar embezzling hedonists (Matthew), violent zealots (Simon the Zealot), thieving insurrectionists (the Thief on the Cross) and blue collar foul-mouthed fishermen (Peter) came to Jesus.

But self-satisfied people didn't.

This is the Gospel, the ultimate Chtisitan religious question

 

[Netopia]

<< It is so sad that all of the people who never hear the gospel of Christ are condemned to Hell. >>



No, what's sad is that you either have misinformation or that you have wrongly jumped to an incorrect assumption.

Romans 2:
11 For God does not show favouritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


Those people who have never heard of Chirst Jesus will not be judged on not accepting Him. The Lord knows the intent of the heart. If someone has no chance to hear the Gospel, but does everything they possibly can to keep a clear conscience, God judges the intent of their heart based on what they thought was right and wrong. If they were the type person who knew something was wrong in thier culture but enjoyed &quot;sinning&quot; anyway, they comdemn themselves by embracing evil. God WILL, however, call to account those who HAVE heard the Gospel and turned and rejected it. They have made thier choice and God only gives them what they ask for... to have no part of Him or what is His.

Joe

 

[I'm Typing]

Netopious: Do not take that argument up with me, take it up with those who like to pick and choose what parts of the bible that they want to follow. YOU might say that I am uninformed...but others posting in this very thread refute your position.

 

[Lalakai]

considering that at last known count, there were 420+ recognized religions on the planet, and each one believes they hold the keys to understanding the spiritual mysteries of existance and the afterlife.

perhap just treating people the way they want to be treated should be a basic guideline for everyday life, and worry about the next stage of our existance when we arrive there.

.......if you do what you've always done, then you'll get what you already have.

 

[Shuxclams]

These people know whats best for everyone.....http://www.traditionalvalues.org/





SHUX

 

[MrPALCO]

A Man once sat with me and opened his mouth, here is what came out:



<< There is God whose total Trust in his Top Servant, allowed that servant to violate that Trust.
This violation revealed a door, that door allowed God to remain alive and in possession of his Honor.

Now every Man created, was outside the door because of what the servant had done. But God is kind and provided his most prized possession, a key, only for Man.

Now there came a horrible criminal, who lived a hard life, always one step in the grave, and always in misery because what goes around, comes around. He found the key shortly before death, used it and entered.

There was a man who did good all his life, his life was applauded for he reaped what he sowed. He came to death but would not use the key. He was proud of his accomplishments. He could not open the door. >>



Jesus is the key...is it too simple?....yes it is simple...use the key and live with God forever.

And when you have entered, God's Written Covenant will feed your Spirit.