Christian religious question

[sparkle]

I don't personally believe in god (at least in the x-ian sense of the word) but I am generally a good person. I would like to believe that if I am wrong God will still accept me into heaven, as he is supposed to be forgiving and everloving. If I am sent to hell, simply because I didn't repent than I don't know I would want "associate" with said God.

And just for fun... since God is all powerful could he create something even he could not lift?

 

[I'm Typing]

Sparkle: I agree. If there is a heavan and hell, I would rather go to hell because all of the interesting people will be there. Of course, if you truly follow the bible, most of the self-rightious bastards who post conservative crap in these forums will end up in hell as well....

Maybe I will opt for Limbo!

 

[Lalakai]

,.............Sparkle, how many others do you think are old enough to remember that line from BC???

 

[UG]

Joe,

<...I see no proof (that God does not exist)...>

The difference is you cannot show anyone proof that your god in actuallity, and in inarguable fact, does exist. Neither, it would seem, can your god. Oh, I know it says that it isn't necessary to have proof, that it's only necessary that we talk ourselves into the belief.

That I must first want to see your god is not a reasonable prequisite to recognizing the proof that it exists. It strikes me as being awfully similar to drinking oneself into a chronic stupor in order to be able to recognize that pink elephants exist.

You say that I have faith that your god does not exist. I say that I have no faith that you can prove it does exist. I also say I have no faith that I can prove he doesn't exist.

So, since your's is the claim that such a thing exists, the burden of proving your claim is not mine. You say it does, so prove it. Where's the beef?


<...In other words, you believe that &quot;Might Makes Right&quot;...>

I know that fellow humans authored the Constitution, others then ratified it, still others ratified ammendments to it that say the majority and the minority enjoy equal protection and equal voice under the law. Its why the 'might' of the christian right is finding it so frustrating that they can't outright force their majority opinions on the minority in public schools.

The Might of the Constituion makes Right, not the might of zealots, of any stripe or magnitude.

Damn, I love this country and the intelligence of the forefathers and of the authors and ratifiers of the First Ammendment.

 

[Oyeve]

I think earth and the life we are now living in is limbo.

 

[Tib]

I've only read like 1/3 of the thread, but it's just too long for me anyway, and here's my 2 cents:

I'm 18 (19 in a few months), and I was born in a Christian family in eastern europe. I moved here to CA when I was 5, so really, I was raised here, not there. Anyway...here's what I think.

People who were born up to believe in evolution, or other &quot;religions,&quot; are doomed. SORRY! but we cannot prove christ to you. You simply have to think about it and make a decision for yourself.

I have a friend just like you. She's about 2 years older then me, going to have her master's degree in about 2 years or so. She's REALLY smart and really nice - what you might call a near perfect person. However, she was raised up in a non christian family of a different &quot;religion&quot; and now, she's chosen to not believe in anything but science and evolution. In this way, she's very much like you.

Well, I've pointed things out to her about why I believe in what I believe, etc. Sorry, but I was not able to. I guess i'm not a bible scholar or whatever. My dad is. He's a preacher, and an evangelist, I guess you can say. A right wing christian, been through communism for 10 or so years in Europe while he was a christian. Been through all that.

Not me, I'm spoiled compared to what he had. And you know, I was raised a christian, and he was not. And when I look at the things I've done, and the things he did, my morals are much lower than his.

Ever since i broke up with this girl a few months ago, I started looking at what I really believe in and who I want to be. To tell you the truth, after 18 years of living life like everyone else, it's hard to change. Basically, I don't do anything different than I did before, I just feel more and more guilty about all the bad things I do. This causes me to go into mass depressions sometimes, lasting months even, and that just makes me get even worse. It's like a cycle.

Anyway, sorry...I'm not going to go much into this argument. The only thing we can do for people like you is the same thing that my parents have done for me all these years: pray. And if you ask me, that's maybe the only reason I'm still alive.

I started thinking about how precious life as after I really screwed mine up in the past 2 years or so. And then about 3 months ago, I got into a near death, head on car accident going 40 mph, totalled my car, and now I have no permanent injuries after 3 months - you can't even tell I've ever been in an accident unless I tell you (or, maybe, if you see how I drive, you would know that way too .

Anyway....we'll be praying for ppl like you, it's all I can say.

Why do I put &quot;religion&quot; in quotes? Main reason - I don't believe that the belief in christ is a &quot;religion;&quot; I think it's a spiritual relationships that makes us feel and think different than most people, and gives us some sort of guidance. A world without God is like a kid without a father - a bastard. That's what the world has become - a bastard.

And as for proof that God exists - the experiences that I've had in life, and what I see happening in the world today, and all the prophesies which are being filled - well that's proof enough for me to know that God is real.

I wrote my final freshmen year english essay on why the world is so screwed up, and if you want, I can send you that file . i have it in MS word 2000 format if you want it.

That's all I have to say, I hope you ppl take my comments as something thoughtful and make you think. Maybe I'll be able to help someone here.

Email me tambrus@yahoo.com if you have anything to say.

Tibor

 

[Mountain]

jesus said,&quot; i am the way the truth and the light, no one cometh to the father but by me&quot;,
the modern church going christians assume they know what this means and put their twentieth(first) century logic to work and come up with your &quot;answers&quot;.
Is your hidden question, &quot;what does it take to go to heaven? good question. DONT listen to church goers. jesus said,&quot;beware of the pharisee(sp?), for they say(here comes the paraphrase)the right things, but don't do the right things.&quot; jesus said&quot; why even of yourselves, judged ye not what is right&quot; maybe meaning we have the capacity to judge right from wrong,THEREFORE, YOU pick up a bible(and other books)and read and try to see what your soul says rings true. please dont let these &quot;christians&quot; turn you off to reading the bible. and dont waste your time(your most precious comodity(sp?)) arguing. good luck, you'll need it.

 

[Zucchini]

tib,

Science does not = faith. If you think that, then you only show yourself to be ignorant.

 

[UG]

Jesus said what?

How do you know? Where's the video? Where's the audio cassette? Where's the Notarized affadavit?

You don't know. You only know anecdotes.

You only know what you guess.

 

[UnixFreak]

It takes a lot of faith to be an atheist. nuff said

 

[UnixFreak]

It takes a lot of faith to be an atheist. nuff said

 

[Netopia]

I'm Typing,

Can you not debate without entertaining childish name calling? If you must attack the man, you must feel that the strength of your arguement is weak.

Irrespective of your behavior, whether &quot;others posting in this very thread refute your (my) position&quot; or not is a moot point. You declared that &quot;all of the people who never hear the gospel of Christ are condemned to Hell&quot; and your position is not Biblically defensible. Perhaps if you had said &quot;Some people THINK that...&quot; you would have been right, but you stated it as if it were a hard and fast doctrine of Christianity, which it isn't.

UG,

Perhaps part of my &quot;beef&quot; is not realizing your exact position. Do you say that &quot;there is no God&quot; or that you &quot;think that there is no God&quot;? If the former, then you ARE putting full faith in an unprovable position; if the latter, well, we've all a right to our opinions and it's cool that you at least leave room that perhaps there might be a God, but you don't think so.

I also share your appreciation for the work of the Founding Fathers. I do wish that they had more foresight though. I honestly believe that if they had a way to look into the future and see what America is today they would rewrite the Constitution and nail down every last questionable article so that there would be absolutely no way to interpret it in any other way than what they meant. Funny though, Thomas Jefferson while President also acted as School Master for the District of Columbia. He only had two books which he commanded be part of the curriculum, The Bible and a Hymnal.

Be it as it may that you and I agree on how nicely done America's Constitution is, in general, is it not true that you say that a society decided what is &quot;right&quot; and what is &quot;wrong&quot;? If you say it is, then Hitler was within his right to slaughter millions and that indeed might makes right. If you say that it was &quot;right&quot; because our country went and helped to stop him because because our society decided his was &quot;wrong&quot;, you again argue that might makes right. But, if that is the case, you would also have to say that Japan was right to invade China. If however, there are certain universal things which are &quot;right&quot; and &quot;wrong&quot; then you have to attribute their existance to something greater than the simple authority of government. So... does might make right and democracy (majority rule) is the only way, or is there a higher morality at work... and if so, from where does it come?

Joe

 

[sparkle]

first off: I'm Typing,
I'm a purgatory goin type, as I am unbaptized flesh

second: Lalakai,
question is, how old am I?

this is a great thread, sometimes I feel like I am trudging through &quot;War and Peace&quot;

 

[BiggieN]

I'm Typing:



<< take it up with those who like to pick and choose what parts of the bible that they want to follow. >>



those are called hypocrites and God will deal with them later on. You mustn't worry about them. just worry about yourself.


on a more general note, the Bible is meant to be interpreted by the individual person. You have to read it for yourself and then figure out what it means to you. Don't take let someone else try to explain it to you. If, after you read it and you don't understand then by all means ask for what someone thinks but in no way is their interpretation correct.

I don't know if I can say this enough, CHURCH IS NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR CHRISTIANITY. Church is basically a group of believers, not a physical location which someone deemed a &quot;church.&quot; Fellowship (church in the physical sense) is needed however for communion with fellow believers. sometimes it helps to know that you are not alone in the world. But in no way are you required to show up every week or something. Worship is a personal thing and it should be between you and God, not you and a congregation. Christianity is a heart and faith thing. It's not a &quot;you must do A then B and then C in X amount of times&quot; in order to be deemed a Christian.

As to the original question, it's not for us to decide who should go to heaven and who should go to hell. It's for God to decide, so why worry. Although it may seem unfair that person A gets the &quot;easy&quot; way out, they will remember their time on earth when they reach Heaven. So in Heaven person A will regret their sins on earth. Some believe that Christians will be judged as well as the non-Christians, but we will not get our punishment because Jesus suffered for us. Basically, all our sins will be counted up and we will see each and every wrong we have done.

Valhalla and anyone else, if you have any questions I would be more than happy to answer it. I'm not exactly a scholar of sorts but i may be able to shed some light or at least direct you to an answer elsewhere.

 

[sparkle]

BiggieN, I don't think I've ever heard anyone put it better!

 

[UG]

Joe,

As an empiricist, I require concrete, high-confidence proof (not the same as absolute proof which I don't believe is possible even for the Universe to produce).

In part, I argue there is no god because it pecks you guys' dot and minorly pays you folks back for your brethren's historical transgressions against non-belivers. Yeah, a pea shooter, but an irritation, nonetheless.

In largest part, I don't know, one way or the other, that a god does or does not actually exist. I only know I've never seen direct evidence of one.

I'm more inclined to believe in the provisional theory of atoms, that may or may not exist, than believe in a god, that may or may not exist, because theists aren't telling me I must believe in atoms (scientists merely say that the concept of atoms is a provisional convenience).

Science admits it doesn't know anything with absolute confidence, unlike theists who regularly say that they do.

Relativity and Quantum Mechanics say you are wrong to believe you know Anything absolutely.

That's why Science makes more sense to me than Theism: I can accept doubt, I am skeptical of certainty.

 

[ArchAngel777]

We are all sinners, we all need someone to wash our sin away. IT does not matter if I rape a woman or desire to rape her, I have still sinned in the eyes of the Lord Jesus Christ. God cannot accept an imperfect being. Since we all have sinned we are all imperfect. Now one who repents is the one who is made perfect Via Christ. God knew from the start that we cannot live a perfect live, so he sent Jesus, the one who died for us, for our sins. Most people think our views are upside down, but in reality they are the ones who are upside down, any true beleiver does not wish anyone to go to hell. If they do wish you to go to hell, that would be a sign that Jesus does not exist in them. There are many who prefess the faith but do not possess it. NOt everyone who claims to be a beleiver is. However that is not for us to judge but for Christ, because only he knows the heart of a man. He knows the treasure of out heart.

but one will ask, does a christian still sin? Of course, we are not perfect yet, we are just on our way, in fact we will never be perfect on this earth, but when we die we will be made perfect. A christian always desires to do the right thing deep down inside but is oftened tricked by the devil, and even willingly gives in to his fleshly desires, this does not therefore mean that he is not a christian. IT means we are human, the biggest different between a christian and a non christian is that one realizes his hopeless condition, and that no matter what he does he cannot live up to God's standards.. but there is more.. he desires to live a life for Christ. I do not think this message will changeanyone, as only god has the ability to do that. But I hope all you non beleivers think about this choice, as it is important. Maybe the entire idea of God scares you so you run from it.. running will not get you anywhere but seperation from God. Fact is God desires a relationship with everyone. And too all my beleiving brothers here at this BBS God bless ya and hope ya live fruitfull lives.

 

[Comp10]

After reading through this long thread I thought I would chirp in .

First of all, to all those people who claim logic prevents you from believing in god, consider this. Not so long ago is was &quot;logical&quot; to believe the earth was flat, it was &quot;logical&quot; to believe man could never fly like the birds, it was &quot;logical&quot; to assume we could never reach the moon, etc... This reminds me of a great quoute I once read &quot;Logic is the art of being wrong with confidence.&quot; So to believe that gods existance is prevented by some sort of logic, really translates to being ingnorant and closed minded, not logical.

Am I trying to tell you that there is without a doubt a god (however you define that word)? No, but what I do see that worries me--and this is often the case with athiests--is that they are many times more closed minded that the &quot;cults&quot; they bash so often. They have simple resigned themselves to the fact that god does not and cannot exist, so they attack relegions instead of trying to learn from the wisdom they might offer. And this also goes for extremists in religions as well. I believe that once you achieve self proclaimed self-rightousness thats when you really get into trouble, no matter what if any relegion you believe in.

So what is the true path to follow then? Well, I have not found it for certain, and that is exactly how I like it. BUT, I do my very best to NEVER close my eyes/ears to teachings of people/books/etc. I still have faith however, faith that the answers to my questions are out there somewhere, faith that all of our lives have some purpose, but I refuse to let any religion or belief trap me into becoming closed minded like I see so often. Thats how so very many great tradegies in human history has occured, when a large group became self-rightous, confinced that god was on their side and decided to do &quot;gods work.&quot;

 

[Merkat]

Mr. Perfect is probably the worse degenerate of the two characters in question. Those who think that &quot;Mr. Perfect&quot; is better than the imprisoned criminal are most likely &quot;patriots&quot;. Jesus preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God. Unless a person is a &quot;born again citizen of the Kingdom of God&quot; that person is no better than anyone else. For both Mr. Perfect &amp; the criminal live by the law of the land into which they are first born. Both are animals.

 

[Lalakai]

Sparkle, to remember that line, you either have an old 33 collection or remember it from a friend's house. Most likely you heard it in the late 60's or early 70's and if that's the case I would put you about 37.

 

[Netopia]

UG,

Good post. I appreciate your open honesty in answering the question. I'll try to not be any less annoyed in the future so that you can still feel a sense of accomplishment.

My brother's visiting, so I have to go... more later. Just wanted to compliment you on your excellent post.

Joe

 

[UG]

Comp 10,

<...to all those people who claim logic prevents you from believing in god,...>

The religiously endowed have no trumping claim to logical certainty.

Who, based on purported observational evidence, said the Earth was the center of all the Universe and that everything in the Universe moved around the Earth in perfect circles? Hmm?

Could it be the Catholic Church, among others? Remember Galileo? &quot;Epur si muove&quot;

Logic doesn't prevent me from believing in your god. Lack of evidence prevents me.

 

[UG]

<...excellent post....>

Jeez. Is this the lube? If I thought your aim was any good I'd be fearful; not withstanding your problematic ability to produce the beef.

 

[Comp10]

UG
Yes, I partially agree with you. The catholic chruch preventing the advancement of science and such is exactly what I think is wrong with many relegions, but churchs are not even close to being the only place where false logic is started. However, let me pose this question to you. Have you went out in SEARCH of evidence that god might be out there? Or have you just convinced yourself that the evidence does not exist and decided that he does not exist, so whats the point in looking? Thats where I have a problem with many athiests, they seem to think god should come down out of the heavens on a flaming chariot or something and proclaim to them that he (or it) exists. What I really dislike is when people let a lack of evidence prevent them for looking for evidence, because if you never look for something, you certainly are never going to find it. There are a lot of people in this world who think they have gotten closer to god through relegion, and who knows, they could be right or wrong, but you are never going to know untill you give them a fair chance.

 

[UG]

Comp10,

<...Have you went out in SEARCH of evidence that god might be out there?..>

No. I've searched for evidence of what is out there. If it points to god, so be it. I haven't found any evidence that points only to god and not to any other more logically defensible conclusion. Over the years, I've used many a telescope and scientific intrument in my search for what is knowable. Haven't yet found god.

Thou shalt not covet thine own hypothesis. It's bad science.

Now, I have imbibed to excess on occassion, but not long enough to see pink elephants. I guess I'm just not cut out to see the obvious.