Christian religious question

[Wallydraigle]

People you can see. God you have to take on blind faith. How about all the people who have never even seen or heard of a bible? Do they go to "Hell" along with the nice man? And what about all those babies who died that someone mentioned earlier? I know they never accepted Christ as "Lord and Savior". A special little bon fire for the newborns. After all they were born already deserving to go to "Hell" right? Christ taught love. It's bigger than that. God knows what is in our hearts. He knows that in this crazy world there is no way to be sure just how to serve him. Catholic killing Catholic, Protestant killing Protestant. We see it all the time. How can we know what is right? Live a good life. Be kind to God's other children. By doing so you show your love for the father of them all. Jesus himself couldn't show everyone the way, how are we to know it now? It's all about faith huh? The scriptures also say that faith without works is dead. The proof's in the pudding folks. Peace.

 

[jsm]

I think that the christian notion of what a god is highly outdated.

For instance, let's say you had a time machine. Now, you wanted to know about math. Who would you go to for a lesson on it? The man back in the early ages of man (Jesus time for example) or some physicist from the future? Obviously, man in the future will be more advanced, have grander, more refined concepts and will have learned a lot from past mistakes and discoveries.

Anyone who thinks that some primitive minded man with the concept of a vengeful god (read the OT for proof) has the ultimate deity is very foolish. We have come a long way since the early ideas of what a god is. For instance, we no longer worship trees or rocks as divine beings and therefore do not pray to them for blessings. From this established pattern of learning, we can see that man will soon move on from christianity as it becomes more obsolete with time. The numbers are dropping.. it is inevitable that god will become obsolete as we learn more and more about our known universe and expand into the unknown aspects of it.

Honestly, if it weren't for some romans converting to christianity, we would probably be worshipping Zeus or Poseidon. Anyhow, christianity is really a harmless religion. Ever since Jesus ripped of Buddha, it really has become just a bunch of illogical hippies spouting out love (that is contradictory to the OT) and hugs. We really should be more concerned about Islam and it's violent practices. Christians aren't war like anymore and there people have stopped killing in the name of their religion (except for the anti abortion freaks who like to shoot doctors and blow up clinics).

The christian notion of sin is obviously without logic. They are simply putting labels on actions. But, from the universe perspective, these actions are not wrong - they simply exist. Humans are the ones with these concepts of right and wrong, but they really do not exist except for in the minds of humans. We think killing is wrong because of our emotions. If you take away the emotions, the action of death simply happens. It is part of nature. But, because of our limited perspective and emotional state, we abhor it (except when emotion justifies it).

The christian god is not perfect. How can a god who is subject to desire be perfect? To desire, to want suggests a lack of something. To lack is to be imperfect. A perfect being is self contained. It needs no external stimuli from any source. The christian god has motion - it creates, it demands tribute to it's ego, it kills. The christian deity was a simple, war god that was created by outdated concepts from simple minded folk. It is most unfortunate that people have gotten stuck on this speed bump on their path to enlightment and understanding.

Go to Christianburner.com for more fun reading!

 

[viper007]

Scenario #1

This depicts that God can forgive your sins from whatever you may have done in this world. Funny enough there is no such thing as a worse sin to GOD. Society says that rape, murdering etc is worse, but to God they are as all the same...Pretty neat huh!

Scenario #2

What your friend says is completely true. He may lead a good life, but he need to ask for forgiveness and believe in God and ask him into his heart. He must also try and live a life that is pure, but ask for forgiveness in times when it falls backwards.

But both those people can go to heaven, their background does not matter! One thing to note is that the dude in Scenario 1, may find it harder to stay with God because of his awful background. It?s not an immediate change; it?s a gradual process, when Jesus comes into your heart!

Cheers...

 

[Zucchini]

Joy i guess the best of both worlds is to be an agnostic hehe

 

[Comp10]

<< Over the years, I've used many a telescope and scientific intrument in my search for what is knowable >>



You are making the assumption that things knowable have to be proven through scientific instruments. Who has told you that the scientific method is the only way to prove something? People have, and likewise people from relegions claim that god can be &quot;proven&quot; through their own teachings. Who is right? The only way to find out is to completely explore both points of view yourself, and this is where I believe many atheists fail, they do not truly explore relegion. Perhaps there is a form of knowledge or &quot;evidence&quot; which is not tangible and cannot be seen through a scientific instrument. But there is one thing I am certain of, if you isolate you search only to that which can be seen through your telescope or scientific instruments you will never know if other forms of evidence or knowledge do exist, be it of god or other things. That is the great loss I see in people becoming closed minded and stuck in the rut of believing that the only way to prove something is by a small isolated path they have chosen, and refuse to believe that the evidence can be obtained elsewhere, and hence never bother to look.

 

[Yo Ma Ma]

<< but to God they are as all the same...Pretty neat huh! >>

Unhappily no, I actually do not think so. I'm not so sure these people are really all the same to God. Horrible acts of cruelty which cause immense pain and suffering are just a blip on the ol' radar screen eh? Not very appealing.

 

[UG]

comp10,

<... if you isolate you search only to that which can be seen through your telescope or scientific instruments you will never know if other forms of evidence or knowledge do exist,...>

Surely you aren't suggesting that tarot cards and quija boards tell us more about Nature than do telescopes and scientific instruments?

I used to do drugs. Those forms of evidence and knowledge didn't find me god, either.

Neither has sex -- though close, or travel, or church sermons, or transcendental meditation, or yoga, or others' astrology, numerology or foot massage, or any other such silliness.

My eyes haven't seen god, nor have my ears heard it, or my fingers felt it, or my tongue tasted it, or my nose smelled it. Thus, my brain hasn't any reason to imagine it exists if no one can provide me with compelling reason to do so.

Provisional atoms? yes. Certain gods? Get a life.

 

[UG]

Comp10,

<...That is the great loss I see in people becoming closed minded and stuck in the rut of believing that the only way to prove something is by a small isolated path they have chosen,...>


Are you sure you're not a budding atheist?

Let's hear you quack.

 

[viper007]

Yo_Ma-Ma:

It was just a way of showing how God deals with sin, and he can forgive you from the deepest and darkest things possible to man. Of course to society, If I was a liar and a killer, the killer would be worse obviously!

 

[Comp10]

<< Surely you aren't suggesting that tarot cards and quija boards tell us more about Nature than do telescopes and scientific instruments? >>


About nature and how it works? Of course not. But what I am suggesting is that knowledge is not confined to that which can be explained using scientific instruments. For example, I &quot;feel&quot; happy when with friends and family, so is that not evidence that they in some way exist and make me happy, even though no scientific instrument can currently measure a feeling? And similarly, if someone can &quot;feel&quot; god through their beliefs or relegion is that not also evidence of his existance? Also, suppose you were living in a time before all the scientific instruments we now have were invented, the only way you could &quot;prove&quot; just about anything was from your own perception of it. So if you believe proof only comes from scienctific instrument, then living back then you couldn't believe any thing existed. I never assume that simple because science cannot yet prove something, that it doesn't exist. All the great human revalations about the nature of things have came from people having faith in something that doesn't readily appear to exist, but they have faith in it still being there. If you do not have faith that something is there, you certainly are not going to waste your time in looking for it. And thats where I find a failing in many atheists. Often through ingornance of religous teachings and their own bias they do not search for god or relegion but rather sit back and assume that he cannot exist, even though they have not made a serious effort to look.


<< Thus, my brain hasn't any reason to imagine it exists if no one can provide me with compelling reason to do so. >>


Thats another statement that often bothers me about many athiests. Your assuming that the reason should come to you, rather than you looking for the reason. How many things have you found in life to be worth while that have simple came to you out of the blue? Most likely very few if any, like all things you must put in effort to achieve something, so why should that not apply to finding god?


<< Are you sure you're not a budding atheist? >>


I quite possible am, I do not have all the answers nor have I found god and I have never claimed otherwise. However, unlike many athiests I know I have not given up on the search be it through the teachings of relegions or through my telescope.

 

[UnixFreak]

Wow, I think this is the longest thread I have ever seen.. wish I started it!

 

[Pastfinder]

This is one example of countless examples as to why I don't practice Catholicism or religion for that matter. I feel that if you lead a good life OVERALL then you shall be &quot;rewarded&quot; by acending into heaven. If you kill without remorse and destroy and hurt others, then they will be summitted to an eternity of fire and poking, in the words of Homer Simpson. I have met only one man who truely practiced what he preached. The rest can go fvck themselves.

 

[Pastfinder]

This is one example of countless examples as to why I don't practice Catholicism or religion for that matter. I feel that if you lead a good life OVERALL then you shall be &quot;rewarded&quot; by ascending into heaven. If you kill without remorse and destroy and hurt others, then they will be summitted to an eternity of fire and poking, in the words of Homer Simpson. I have met only one man who truely practiced what he preached. The rest can go fvck themselves.

 

[DABANSHEE]

You know the christian god must be be a real ego maniac (or real insecure) if he condemns good people to eternal hell just because they didn't beleive in him, even though they lived good, rightious, honourable, charitable lives.

That's certainly no god I'd want to believe in.

I have a feeling of deja-vu about this post - I have a funny feeling I posted it before. Maybe I did in a past life &amp; for some strange reason the mods didn't like it. I wonder why, I'm just voicing my opionion about how if a god condemns people to eternal hell just because they won't aknowledge him/her, then that god must be in my mind a bit of a egomaniac.

 

[DABANSHEE]

Oooh, now it looks like I'm the egomaniac, thinking that the mods reacted so much to my 1st post they 'codemned it to hell', when it was just an outage.

 

[Jugernot]

Edit: Whoops, another member informed me that my message was deleted unintentionally by a database crash which is understandable.

Jugs

 

[Shaftatplanetquake]

I got a question to throw in here.

What if a baby is born brain dead (xian god made him like that). He isn't capable of recognizing xian god as the true lord and savior. So, according to the god who created this life and is really completely responsible for him, this baby is going straight to hell...

All Christians in the house- is my senario true?

(i use xian god as a designation of who Christians believe is the lord, cuz there are so many &quot;god&quot;s.)

 

[FOBSIDE]

i see a lot of arguments being tossed back and forth here. basically i think what a lot of people dont understand is that Christians believe in God setting the standards. why is it fair that the man who does so much good goes to hell and the man who repents on his death bed does not? basically God sets the standard on what is acceptable and what is not in terms of righteousness. i think its foolish to say i wont believe because i dont like it. i think when we end up with a god we like, weve created god. how powerful is a god that you can think up?

 

[Netopia]

Shaftatplanetquake,

I don't believe that the baby in question goes to Hell. Neither do I believe that a normal healthy child who is too young to understand right from wrong. Niether do I believe that a totally retarded person who can't understand is held responsible for what he can't understand. God judges the intent of the heart... not some legal technicalities.

Joe

 

[Merkat]

<You know the christian god must be be a real ego maniac (or real insecure) if he condemns good people to eternal hell just because they didn't beleive in him, even though they lived good, rightious, honourable, charitable lives.>

<That's certainly no god I'd want to believe in.>

Hmmm... let's try this again. The &quot;good people&quot; are not &quot;good&quot;. What you deem to be &quot;good&quot; is merely a man made illusion. The &quot;Christian&quot; paradigm for good/righteouness is not the lowly standard by which the &quot;patriot/unbeliever&quot; judges their fellow citizens.

Niccolo Machiavelli:
&quot;Many have imagined republics and principalities which have never been seen or known to exist in reality; for how we live is so far removed from how we ought to live, that he who abandons what is done for what ought to be done, will rather bring about his own ruin than his preservation.&quot;

 

[MrPALCO]

It is Written:



<< There is only One who is good, that is God >>

 

[Whitedog]

Before you can understand why some murderer can be saved, you have to understand &quot;forgivness&quot;.

Those who think it's &quot;not fair&quot; for a Murderer to go to Heaven when they &quot;receive&quot; Christ on death row don't have a good enough understanding of true &quot;Forgiveness&quot;.

You also have to understand that No one can be saved without &quot;receiving&quot; Christ's holy spirit. Just saying words doesn't do it. You can't receive God's spirit unless the Spirit has drawn you to him. You can beg all you want, but if the spirit doesn't draw you to Christ, you won't receive him.

Don't think that anyone who has murdered and such all their life can be saved. God only promised us that the spirit will come to us once. If the spirit came to this murderer when he was younger and he rejected him (which many people do), he may never get another chance at salvation. I've heard stories of this before. It's called Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, meaning total rejection.
God told us that anyone who Blasphemy's the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

One such story I heard once... There was a man and woman, the Christian woman prayed for her husband year after year that he would be saved. On more than one occation he was being drawn by God to accept him, but the man in turn rebuked and made statements like &quot;I don't need God! I'm a good man, don't sin...bla bla...&quot;

After years past and the man became older, he realized what he had done and was doomed. He'd totally rejected God by Blaspheming the Spirit when it came to him. He prayed and prayed to God to forgive him and accept him, but to no end, he never was saved.

He died never being saved, simply because he had rejected God when the Spirit was trying to work with him.

It's not about what you do in your life. Good or Bad... It's about complete submission to the Spirit for forgiveness.

A sin is a sin whether it's telling your wife you worked late when you were actually out having drinks, or murdering 7 people because you hate the IRS...

But, unless you ARE &quot;sorry&quot;, asking for forgivness will be a waste of your breath.

 

[Whitedog]

Shaftatplanetquake,

Children are born are under an umbrella of protection (for lack of better words) until the &quot;age of accountability&quot;

Basically meaning, until one is able to differenciate and understand Salvation, accepting God..etc..., God spares their soul.

So Yes, those who are incapable of understanding God and such are spared... examples would be young children, retarded people, braindead...etc...

 

[meister]

Many times we speak of things as if we know, and thats the first sign that we know nothing as we really ought to.

Suffice it to say that what the Christian faith presents to us is a mediator. One who has been given to mankind. Many who have posted here and in this holiday season might be aware of the verse--' child is born, a son is given.'

The son has been given to all, and we should be reminded that this was a unifying act, not a seperating one so we all could argue about how and when we are all saved.

Mark

 

[xyyz]

someone probably made this point...

but i'll reiterate it...

all religions (w/o of the questionable ones) teach the same thing... how to be a good person and how to produce a peaceful and workable society, may it be bhudism, islam, judasim, hinduism etc.

a person is jugded on their social impact (in this case how they didn't hurt society) and how they lived their lives... a person who is evil yet prays 20 times a day but after each prayer session continually does dastardly deeds is not a good person.

when you ask anyone for REAL forgiveness... you feel remorse for your action and a condition of forgiveness is that you will not commit the same action. a person who keeps doing the same wrong action that influcts suffering in another loses the value of their appology and is not entitled to forgiveness.