Christianity vs MAGA Christianity

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,541
54,402
136
It all makes sense when you realize that religion doesn’t inform their culture and politics, their culture and politics informs their religion.

The Christ of the Bible tells them things they don’t want to hear so they make up a new theology that does. That’s how you get people who claim to be adherents to the religion of radical love arguing that empathy is bad.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,529
15,052
136
Its a power structure. End of story. Its not necessarily a bad power structure, it did what it had to do for a time. As a race we're nothing if we can march to the same beat. Religion does that for us. But we have new more efficient and effective paradigmes now, time to plot a course closer to reality than religion can.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,629
17,248
136
It all makes sense when you realize that religion doesn’t inform their culture and politics, their culture and politics informs their religion.

The Christ of the Bible tells them things they don’t want to hear so they make up a new theology that does. That’s how you get people who claim to be adherents to the religion of radical love arguing that empathy is bad.
"The Bible is the unerring word of god, and cannot be corrupted by the human hand!" they say, with their long history of schisms and tremendous number of sects...
 

VashHT

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2007
3,300
1,343
136
Plus they like to say the old testament doesn't count when you bring up the crazy shit in it, sounds like a lot of erring to me
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,359
6,660
126
It all makes sense when you realize that religion doesn’t inform their culture and politics, their culture and politics informs their religion.

The Christ of the Bible tells them things they don’t want to hear so they make up a new theology that does. That’s how you get people who claim to be adherents to the religion of radical love arguing that empathy is bad.
So may I infer from your use of the word ‘inform’ an intention to imply that their political theology, if I may paint it as such, takes precedence over their religious theology and that to accomplish such a feat, it is their religious theology that has to give?

But as pointed out above, religious belief is the absolute truth that itself demands first place, that we have no other gods before us or so at least the Abrahamic religions teach, I think.

So the question for me becomes, since if this is what you are saying then I certainly agree, what on earth could compel such a willingness to live in such a massive state of hypocrisy. How does one go about setting aside the absolute Word of God for a secular belief, that by doing so condemns them to hell. Such a feat, it seems to me could only be accomplished by massive lack of self awareness and ignorance of facts.

And all of that is exactly what you get if religious conservatism were another manifestation of self hate, a fear of truth that based on the fear of feeling guilt and shame, all feelings originating in being made to experience how you are treated if you are worthless.

Your words lead me to conclude, then, that what makes religious conservatives what they are is that the religious values they absorbed, actually the paucity of them, they don’t really know what their religion teaches despite believing they do, and the fact they have suffered too much pain to willingly take on more via rely reflection, all of which leaves as their only way out, the herd mentality of conformity that requires an us and an evil them to sustain.

I think a profound capacity for hypocrisy requires the experience of pain so profound that only denial and massive repression of remembrance of it allow a child to survive.

What we have in my opinion is a system the finds efficiency by fueling that kind of mental illness. Let’s take all these greedy for self affirmation, worthless feeling individuals and set them against each other in a new war to survive, and let’s make sure that without money, the symbol of success, they will definitely die. Once we do that endless misery will be insured and the system will self perpetuate as nobody will risk loss for the sake of change, especially the ones with power and wealth at the top, thase with the least empathy as the price of entry.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,541
54,402
136
So may I infer from your use of the word ‘inform’ an intention to imply that their political theology, if I may paint it as such, takes precedence over their religious theology and that to accomplish such a feat, it is their religious theology that has to give?

But as pointed out above, religious belief is the absolute truth that itself demands first place, that we have no other gods before us or so at least the Abrahamic religions teach, I think.

So the question for me becomes, since if this is what you are saying then I certainly agree, what on earth could compel such a willingness to live in such a massive state of hypocrisy. How does one go about setting aside the absolute Word of God for a secular belief, that by doing so condemns them to hell. Such a feat, it seems to me could only be accomplished by massive lack of self awareness and ignorance of facts.

And all of that is exactly what you get if religious conservatism were another manifestation of self hate, a fear of truth that based on the fear of feeling guilt and shame, all feelings originating in being made to experience how you are treated if you are worthless.

Your words lead me to conclude, then, that what makes religious conservatives what they are is that the religious values they absorbed, actually the paucity of them, they don’t really know what their religion teaches despite believing they do, and the fact they have suffered too much pain to willingly take on more via rely reflection, all of which leaves as their only way out, the herd mentality of conformity that requires an us and an evil them to sustain.

I think a profound capacity for hypocrisy requires the experience of pain so profound that only denial and massive repression of remembrance of it allow a child to survive.

What we have in my opinion is a system the finds efficiency by fueling that kind of mental illness. Let’s take all these greedy for self affirmation, worthless feeling individuals and set them against each other in a new war to survive, and let’s make sure that without money, the symbol of success, they will definitely die. Once we do that endless misery will be insured and the system will self perpetuate as nobody will risk loss for the sake of change, especially the ones with power and wealth at the top, thase with the least empathy as the price of entry.
As I've mentioned before one of my best friends is an evangelical Christian in suburban PA and in the last say, ten years she's seen the evangelical world shift around her, including her parents. These are individuals that read their bible daily, go to church every Sunday, and then conduct additional bible study after church. Now as far as what they 'know', they have come to positions that are at odds with the clear teachings of their faith in my opinion but it's not from ignorance of the material. No joke, some of these people were on Jeopardy style bible quiz teams as teenagers, haha.

That being said their transformation over the last ten years was also striking as when Trump first showed up in 2015 (feels like a lifetime ago) they were not supporters for all the reasons you would assume. After he became the nominee they gradually started to shift towards him, telling themselves that he was a 'baby Christian' and was growing into their faith. (lol) After a while though they decided none of that mattered and just went all-in.

In my experience it is more hatred of others than it is hatred of themselves, but who knows what the human heart holds. They have lived their whole lives in a community that tells them Christians are constantly under attack and this has led to a profound hatred of the people who are supposedly attacking them. You can't let the evil guys win and so compromises must be made. Eventually those compromises turn into your actual beliefs.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
Which churches teach that and what scripture do they cite as justification?

Why do so many Christian athletes thank God for winning the big game? What does God have to do with their performance on the field? Is God picking a winner, or is it about the skill of the players on the field? It really can't be both. In principle the outcome of a sports game is no different than any other outcomes in life. Yet Christians seem confused about whether it is humans or a supernatural entity who is determining these outcomes, meaning they are also confused about whether they really have any control over their own lives or not.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
Untold number of self-professed Christians have been politically corrupted into believing that the Republican Organization is the only entity that endorses their religious freedoms, never mind that they're weaponizing these very freedoms of theirs to attack and suppress the freedoms of practitioners of the other religions of the world of whom by law supposedly have those same protections.

Ergo, whatever dictatorial powers their Republican leaders are wielding, whatever crimes against humanity and the laws of the land their leaders are perpetrating must be ecumenically supported/ignored and justified by the crafty manipulation of testament because these political opportunists are on the side of their God. It's literally a contrived marriage consummated by the Federalist Society and the Heritage Foundation.

The Christians of the nation have free will to practice their religious beliefs, yet they feel they are compelled by their religious dogma to suppress, denigrate, outlaw and gain control over everyone else's freedoms because these heathens are an existential threat to their all powerful god, of which is of course a lesson in contradiction of the highest order, yet somehow they manage to make sense of that nonsense. it's what happens when the preeminent religion of our nation is infected with the political aspirations of their deceitful leaders. Afterall, of all the people they could have supported, they endorsed and elected Trump as their leader.

Christianity more than any other religion expanded and grew by the sword. By far more than any other religion. In fact, it's why there are more Christians today in the world than any other religion. In medieval Europe, pagans, Jews and Muslims were either killed, or persecuted/tortured into converting.

So this intolerance you describe of modern MAGA Christians is actually the norm for Christianity throughout its 2000 year history. The question isn't why are these MAGA's ignoring the liberal teachings of Jesus. It's where have these true Christians ever been? They have always been a minority in every age.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
It all makes sense when you realize that religion doesn’t inform their culture and politics, their culture and politics informs their religion.

The Christ of the Bible tells them things they don’t want to hear so they make up a new theology that does. That’s how you get people who claim to be adherents to the religion of radical love arguing that empathy is bad.

All theologies are inherently pliable. Good Muslims think the Koran is peaceful and urges peace. Bad ones site the warlike passages and take them literally and apply them to the modern age. Neither interpretation is wrong. There's a lot of stuff said in that book. And in the Christian bible. Did Jesus bring peace or did he bring "the sword?" Depends which passages you read and how you interpret them.

So pliable is religious doctrine that it can be exploited by just about anyone for just about any purpose. "Prosperity Gospel" has little to do with what's in the Gospels and says that giving money to a televangelist will improve your fortunes in life. And people believe it and give money.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
Plus they like to say the old testament doesn't count when you bring up the crazy shit in it, sounds like a lot of erring to me

The next time a Christian tries to tell you that Old Testament law does not apply, site this:

Matthew 5:17-19

“17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,629
17,248
136
Christianity more than any other religion expanded and grew by the sword. By far more than any other religion. In fact, it's why there are more Christians today in the world than any other religion. In medieval Europe, pagans, Jews and Muslims were either killed, or persecuted/tortured into converting.

So this intolerance you describe of modern MAGA Christians is actually the norm for Christianity throughout its 2000 year history. The question isn't why are these MAGA's ignoring the liberal teachings of Jesus. It's where have these true Christians ever been? They have always been a minority in every age.
Mostly living quiet monastic lives, probably.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,359
6,660
126
As I've mentioned before one of my best friends is an evangelical Christian in suburban PA and in the last say, ten years she's seen the evangelical world shift around her, including her parents. These are individuals that read their bible daily, go to church every Sunday, and then conduct additional bible study after church. Now as far as what they 'know', they have come to positions that are at odds with the clear teachings of their faith in my opinion but it's not from ignorance of the material. No joke, some of these people were on Jeopardy style bible quiz teams as teenagers, haha.

That being said their transformation over the last ten years was also striking as when Trump first showed up in 2015 (feels like a lifetime ago) they were not supporters for all the reasons you would assume. After he became the nominee they gradually started to shift towards him, telling themselves that he was a 'baby Christian' and was growing into their faith. (lol) After a while though they decided none of that mattered and just went all-in.

In my experience it is more hatred of others than it is hatred of themselves, but who knows what the human heart holds. They have lived their whole lives in a community that tells them Christians are constantly under attack and this has led to a profound hatred of the people who are supposedly attacking them. You can't let the evil guys win and so compromises must be made. Eventually those compromises turn into your actual beliefs.
I think for most Christians ignorance of teaching is the usual case. That doesn't mean there are no exceptions. The victim mentality of Christians is easy to attribute to how they experience the Crucifixion as an assault on their religion rather than as a door to salvation. Self hate and self pity go hand in hand in my opinion. As for hatred of others there is no better way in my opinion to explain it then having first learned hatred by having it directed at oneself and taking it in as having been deserved. There can be no hatred of others without hatred of self. It is a learned behavior.

The beatings continue until moral is improved, meaning compliance with authority, but authority totally undeserving of respect with all the resentment being unjustly victimized creates. I see symptoms easily enough. It's the root cause of why we react as we do that is of interest to me. The symptoms get treated and appear somewhere else. Real cure has to deal with pulling up and discarding the root.

Those compromises are made because what we actually believe is how we feel. We came to the table feeling worthless and the compromises are there to deny what is our actual belief. Without belief in the lie we are evil, evil can't exist. Our beliefs create our world, the hell we see all around us.

When you consider the investment we have in our delusions you can see why we cling to them. We were all crucified and we haven't the faith to forgive. A donkey laden with holy books remains a donkey.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,342
20,043
146
As I've mentioned before one of my best friends is an evangelical Christian in suburban PA and in the last say, ten years she's seen the evangelical world shift around her, including her parents. These are individuals that read their bible daily, go to church every Sunday, and then conduct additional bible study after church. Now as far as what they 'know', they have come to positions that are at odds with the clear teachings of their faith in my opinion but it's not from ignorance of the material. No joke, some of these people were on Jeopardy style bible quiz teams as teenagers, haha.

That being said their transformation over the last ten years was also striking as when Trump first showed up in 2015 (feels like a lifetime ago) they were not supporters for all the reasons you would assume. After he became the nominee they gradually started to shift towards him, telling themselves that he was a 'baby Christian' and was growing into their faith. (lol) After a while though they decided none of that mattered and just went all-in.

In my experience it is more hatred of others than it is hatred of themselves, but who knows what the human heart holds. They have lived their whole lives in a community that tells them Christians are constantly under attack and this has led to a profound hatred of the people who are supposedly attacking them. You can't let the evil guys win and so compromises must be made. Eventually those compromises turn into your actual beliefs.

I was on a JBQ team


So cringey
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,359
6,660
126
The next time a Christian tries to tell you that Old Testament law does not apply, site this:

Matthew 5:17-19

“17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I have heard that Jesus came to correct the thought among Jews that adherence to the letter of the law was the aim of a religious live. Thinking about what the New Testament might say about that I found this among much else and from someone professing to speak for Christianity:

"The moment we receive Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit comes to live in our hearts. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost) is all-powerful and present everywhere. The Holy Spirit teaches us and takes us deeper into God’s truth as we go along in our Christian life.

There is not a person anywhere who can be a Christian without the Holy Spirit. There is not a person who can follow Christ without the help of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit sees everything that goes on. He knows what goes on in our hearts. He knows what goes on in our minds. Nothing is hidden from Him.

The Holy Spirit is also called holy. The Bible says, “Be holy, because I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16). One of the Holy Spirit’s ministries is to help make us holy—to become more like Christ." Jewish law if full of deep wisdom as to what is ethical behavior buy only by spirit can anybody practice it properly. Not saying no Jew can enter into spirit because I can't imagine how the ethical nature of Judaism came into existence without the wisdom conferred by spirit."

Of course for me this is just religious talk for truth that can also be revealed by the science of psychology and the self introspective potential possible offered by psychoanalytic analysis of what we really feel. It's Western based science long understood by Eastern mystics in my opinion. The psychoanalysis I was made familiar with by my teacher involved digging the tunnel from both ends. Achieve self respect in this world by positive achievements, that would be living out the love of life and the love of neighbor in one's daily life, and allowing your hatred of all and everything to surface in a therapeutic setting so you can see how you came to feel that way.

Nothing new under the sun.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,359
6,660
126
Why do so many Christian athletes thank God for winning the big game? What does God have to do with their performance on the field? Is God picking a winner, or is it about the skill of the players on the field? It really can't be both. In principle the outcome of a sports game is no different than any other outcomes in life. Yet Christians seem confused about whether it is humans or a supernatural entity who is determining these outcomes, meaning they are also confused about whether they really have any control over their own lives or not.
We have been conditioned to feeling worthless and any attribution to personal skill or ability will get stomped on by the envy of others. We have been deeply conditioned to protect ourselves from that and accounts collaterally with our love of Donald Trump who is psychotic enough to violate all such rules just as we wish we could, the point being here that it is much safer emotionally to be ridiculed as a religious fanatic than as an egotist. Religions are built to immunize one's self against the words of devils.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,359
6,660
126
Christianity more than any other religion expanded and grew by the sword. By far more than any other religion. In fact, it's why there are more Christians today in the world than any other religion. In medieval Europe, pagans, Jews and Muslims were either killed, or persecuted/tortured into converting.

So this intolerance you describe of modern MAGA Christians is actually the norm for Christianity throughout its 2000 year history. The question isn't why are these MAGA's ignoring the liberal teachings of Jesus. It's where have these true Christians ever been? They have always been a minority in every age.
The number of people who know anything is similarly a minority in every age. The door to freedom is blocked by the belief that one already knows what it is.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,359
6,660
126
All theologies are inherently pliable. Good Muslims think the Koran is peaceful and urges peace. Bad ones site the warlike passages and take them literally and apply them to the modern age. Neither interpretation is wrong. There's a lot of stuff said in that book. And in the Christian bible. Did Jesus bring peace or did he bring "the sword?" Depends which passages you read and how you interpret them.

So pliable is religious doctrine that it can be exploited by just about anyone for just about any purpose. "Prosperity Gospel" has little to do with what's in the Gospels and says that giving money to a televangelist will improve your fortunes in life. And people believe it and give money.
That plasticity is not just a feature of religion. It is a feature of belief in anything. That plasticity will find expression anywhere the truth might appear. It is all about avoiding looking into the mirror and seeing truth reflecting back from it. We kill any who bring news this is our condition. Our ego saved us as children from Armageddon and in the hope of salvation we subconsciously work to recreate the experience not knowing that without the realization it happened in the past or remembering it. This is why the Hero must pass through hell to reach enlightenment, God Consciousness, or whatever words you choose to express what can't be experienced by word about it. My opinion.
 
Mar 28, 2008
162
269
136
Christians who are willing to accept their leader, whom they believe to be not only one of their flock but chosen by god to lead, rejecting the most fundamental belief of their faith without which christianity makes no sense. There's no 'there' there. It's all magic words and incantations. People can believe what they want to believe, but if they're willing to completely disregard it as a matter of convenience why should anyone else believe that it means anything?

Edit: added who after Christians, since presumably not all Christians accept Trump as their leader. Presumably.
 
Last edited:

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,578
8,103
136
I was on a JBQ team


So cringey

I've seen the same transformations in some friends of mine who are devout Christians yet, to me, they soiled themselves when they too went all in on Trump. There must be millions of Christians who are liberals that take a very different view of Trump compared with my friends who have been converted into die hard Trump advocates. There is no changing of minds in this regard.

I've had some serious discussions with these Trump admiring friends of mine due to the fact that our friendships are able to stand the test of those differences that politics and religion will bring out among passionate people. That led to my conclusion that so long as Trump keeps stocking the Supreme Court with Christians that are self-described fundamentalists on the one hand , yet are totally corrupted corporate sponsored politically spoiled on the other, they will overlook these very un-Christian things that Trump and his influential cohorts brings out in people and quite easily rationalize their way through interpreting scripture to their satisfaction.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,342
20,043
146
I've seen the same transformations in some friends of mine who are devout Christians yet, to me, they soiled themselves when they too went all in on Trump. There must be millions of Christians who are liberals that take a very different view of Trump compared with my friends who have been converted into die hard Trump advocates. There is no changing of minds in this regard.

I've had some serious discussions with these Trump admiring friends of mine due to the fact that our friendships are able to stand the test of those differences that politics and religion will bring out among passionate people. That led to my conclusion that so long as Trump keeps stocking the Supreme Court with Christians that are self-described fundamentalists on the one hand , yet are totally corrupted corporate sponsored politically spoiled on the other, they will overlook these very un-Christian things that Trump and his influential cohorts brings out in people and quite easily rationalize their way through interpreting scripture to their satisfaction.

Yea but consider what youre saying. The chrisitans youre describing are ok with trump as long as he brings christian control to the nation. We are no longer a free nation at that point, the constitution is void. We are becoming a theocracy, with many christians gleefully cheering it on. Convinced in their righteous crusade to “save” america, they destroy, because they refuse to acknowledge basic core freedoms for all.
 
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DZero

Golden Member
Jun 20, 2024
1,176
420
96
Christians who are willing to accept their leader, whom they believe to be not only one of their flock but chosen by god to lead, rejecting the most fundamental belief of their faith without which christianity makes no sense. There's no 'there' there. It's all magic words and incantations. People can believe what they want to believe, but if they're willing to completely disregard it as a matter of convenience why should anyone else believe that it means anything?

Edit: added who after Christians, since presumably not all Christians accept Trump as their leader. Presumably.
It's more simple for me: the people who accept Trump as their leader are no Christians in fact, they believes in a Messiah. Not so different to Pagans
 
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nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
61,629
17,248
136
It's more simple for me: the people who accept Trump as their leader are no Christians in fact, they believes in a Messiah. Not so different to Pagans
Hey there, chief, which pagans are you thinking of that believe in a messiah?
 

DZero

Golden Member
Jun 20, 2024
1,176
420
96
I understood him to mean that making Trump a messiah is not unlike pagans worshiping a stone, that the stone is a messiah, chief.
Thanks for the explanation. Indeed, this is the case. To be fair, I am a Christian, and I really HATE how those MAGA say that they are Christians, while worship Trump as an idol.
Sorry, but I can't handle it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,359
6,660
126
Thanks for the explanation. Indeed, this is the case. To be fair, I am a Christian, and I really HATE how those MAGA say that they are Christians, while worship Trump as an idol.
Sorry, but I can't handle it.
No problem. I had considered objecting to the same post you did and didn’t get around to it. No Christian worships Trump. There is no presumably about it.

I met the greatest friend of my life on this forum. In him I could expose my worst nature and receive back only love. He was not bothered by anything people did to him or said. He simply said he was going to heaven when he died and had in fact already done so and arrived. I knew another who was the janitor of a Catholic Church. I would see him squirt the kids coming to school there in the morning with a garden hose. He told me his job was to keep the priests awake. He radiated presence like a sun.
 
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