christopher hitchens

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shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
I have a very similar view. I can't get the Ah Ha of what I described and so I think I may not have understood my friend's position properly or no flash of understanding and realization happens for me in that way because some sort of shock to my thinking hasn't happened or for some other reason.

At any rate, let me ask you about chaos theory and causality. Would it be physics wise wrong to conclude that from the first instance of the universe, the first cause and effect, everything else that has happened sense is a foregone result? I think sometimes that the universe must manifest according to it's laws. I have heard that the universe might have come into being in a way say that life could never occur, if the laws were different, so why do we have the laws that we do? I think the question must be meaningless because the laws are as they are and there's no use wondering about them being different, but I want your scientific opinion, if one is possible here?
Cosmology isn't my area, but I think that the probabilistic nature of particles would lead to vast differences in the outcomes of - say - two universes with identical initial conditions.

About two years ago, I read an article (I can't remember where) about how even the tiniest changes in the parameters that defined the degree and nature of cosmic inflation (CI) in the primordial universe would have led to a vastly different universe, such as one in which neither starts nor planets (nor, obviously, any life forms) could form. So it would seems that we humans are extraordinarily lucky to have been blessed with just the precise set of CI values that allowed a universe filled with stars and planets to arise. But that's the old "survivor bias" again: we wouldn't be here to marvel at our incredibly good luck if our universe had not had those rare CI values. Even if only one in 10^100 universes satisfies the necessary conditions, given 10^100,000,000,000 universes, there are a ton of universes containing intelligent beings marveling at their good fortune.

It also seems likely that the particular laws of physics that apply to a given universe might themselves be a consequence of the CI values. Perhaps if we could evaluate the laws of physics in a universe that was wildly different from our own we'd see laws that were wildly different. Unfortunately, such a universe wouldn't support life, so there would be no one to perform the needed measurements. At any rate, for any universe where there's someone around to do the evaluating (in other words, one of those very rare universes with stars and planets), the laws of physics are probably very, very similar.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
No, you don't get it. How are you seriously this dumb?

The descriptor "perfect" doesn't mean anything until you give it a reference in reality. You must answer the question "perfect WHAT?"

Was Jesus a perfect criminal? A perfect marksman? If he's "perfect" then he must be, right? Was he perfectly round? Perfectly square? If he's not perfectly round then he's not perfect.


Seriously, open a fucking book for once in your life, asshole.

...and don't think I didn't notice your stealthy moving of goalposts here -- from wanting a "reference to judge it", to a "reference in REALITY".
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Boy, this is very simple. "I" never claimed Jesus was perfect...the bible did.
So what? Whether you said it or motherfucking Joel Osteen said it, it's still preposterous for the reasons given, and that you haven't addressed.

You want to know what constitutes a perfect Christ?
I don't think that the idea itself is coherent. I want you to acknowledge that it isn't, or tell us why we shouldn't conclude that it isn't.

Consider the source from which the claim originated.
Why? What bearing at all does that have on the truth of the claim?

That's fine if it does nothing for you, then quit whining...
No, it does nothing for you because we can see that yet again you're just talking out of your ass without any actual thought or rational consideration.
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
...and don't think I didn't notice your stealthy moving of goalposts here -- from wanting a "reference to judge it", to a "reference in REALITY".

Dude, any reference that should exist must be a reference in reality. Otherwise it isn't a real reference. That isn't a movement of the goalposts. Do you ever get tired of failing so consistently?
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
108
106
Dude, any reference that should exist must be a reference in reality. Otherwise it isn't a real reference. That isn't a movement of the goalposts. Do you ever get tired of failing so consistently?

You asked for a reference, you got one, and changed your criteria midstream to save face.

Now who's tired of failing here?
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
You asked for a reference, you got one, and changed your criteria midstream to save face.
What the hell are you talking about? I didn't mean a citation. I mean that the adjective requires an object of reference, you dummy -- a thing that defines the parameters with which to judge something "perfect." Without any reference, "perfect" has no meaning.

Now who's tired of failing here?
It seems you're not done in any case.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
So I've missed a few pages of useless bickering about semantics. I don't see a single citation to any lab result where a self replicating molecule formed on its own then started replicating under any conditions let alone realistic conditions.

Hacks hide behind word games when they know they don't have a case.
"Word games."

That's just precious.


I think I've identified who this Cerpin dude is. He's the atheist version of Sye Ten Bruggencate.

Oh noes, guyz! I've been "identified"!

 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
30,184
44,352
136

The 4 Horse Men clip is a great watch, and I credit it with making an evangelical friend of mine back in Florida a lot smarter, or at least a hell of a lot easier to hang with.

When I encounter people who don't know anything about Hitchens, rather than hand them a book I like to steer them to this Intelligence Squared debate as an introduction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrIHw0fZNOA

One of the many beatdowns Hitchens is famous for, to the chagrin of many as you can see. I envy Stephen Fry to have known the guy, to have such a character vouch for you over a controversial issue in front of everyone like that. People who care fiercely for their friends are my kind of people, politics and religious views be damned.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,583
30,835
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Sandorski is a person who thinks pointing at existing eyes is good evidence that they evolved, by assuming that they evolved.

what the fuck is this even? Probably the poorest argument against evolution ever, endorsed only by simpeltons with zero understanding of biology.

jesus christ man, give it up.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
what the fuck is this even? Probably the poorest argument against evolution ever, endorsed only by simpeltons with zero understanding of biology.

jesus christ man, give it up.
It isn't an argument against evolution so yeah it is pretty poor. Do you complain to Stanley when somebody tries to use a hammer for a toothpick?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,057
6,601
126
Cosmology isn't my area, but I think that the probabilistic nature of particles would lead to vast differences in the outcomes of - say - two universes with identical initial conditions.

That what I suspect and why I find it difficult to follow the backward tracing of effects to an original cause. It seems to me that any original cause could have the effect we see as our universe because of the infinite number of possibilities any cause could have. In exploring this question I have run into some cosmological theories that postulate that the universe did not have a beginning nor will end, and also that a universe will exist in every black hole, which certainly opens up the notion that something came before our universe and there's no telling just how deep that black rabbit hole may go, a hole inside a hole inside a hole, etc. Apparently, a universe with a beginning has theoretical problems, mathematically.

I can see somebody making the argument that the physics theories are so bizarre that God is more likely. Occam's Razor Hehe. Thanks for your answer.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
The 4 Horse Men clip is a great watch, and I credit it with making an evangelical friend of mine back in Florida a lot smarter, or at least a hell of a lot easier to hang with.

When I encounter people who don't know anything about Hitchens, rather than hand them a book I like to steer them to this Intelligence Squared debate as an introduction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrIHw0fZNOA

One of the many beatdowns Hitchens is famous for, to the chagrin of many as you can see. I envy Stephen Fry to have known the guy, to have such a character vouch for you over a controversial issue in front of everyone like that. People who care fiercely for their friends are my kind of people, politics and religious views be damned.
:thumbsup: Yeah I have watched this video a couple of times too, as you said great beatdown by Hitchens.

I like a lot of Fry's stuff too, I even liked his show where he visited every state in the US (unrelated to the topic of course ). He is a very smart and funny person with a good head on his shoulders. Proof we don't need religion for a 'moral compass' in fact it is now becoming the opposite.
 
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buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
85
91
:thumbsup: Yeah I have watched this video a couple of times too, as you said great beatdown by Hitchens.

I like a lot of Fry's stuff too, I even liked his show where he visited every state in the US (unrelated to the topic of course ). He is a very smart and funny person with a good head on his shoulders. Proof we don't need religion for a 'moral compass' in fact it is now becoming the opposite.
You need help thinking for yourself? Sort of ironic don't you think?
 
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