christopher hitchens

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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Somebody make one of these idiots define "life" in a rigorous way, and then explain how their God fits that description. You see, either they believe that their God is "alive," and that's where life came from (life from life), or they really do believe that life can come from non-life, just that it takes magic to make it happen. Either way, the "life cannot come from non-life" canard is bullshit.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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So what? People's minds have been changed to accept Christ was the Son of God.

Does that mean anything from a scientific standpoint?
When people's minds become more open, they're more open to science.

Faith is just fine if its scope is restricted to the spiritual realm, but as it stands right now, even the most compelling scientific evidence is often just dismissed by faith-blinded ideologues. That can have consequences in the physical world (aka "real world").
 
Nov 29, 2006
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You did NOT address my post. Soulcaugher clearly saw the point i was making, and responded intelligently and logically.

This is what adults do. They see the point, not just the "low hanging fruit"

I actually agree with JD50. You're analogy didn't make sense. But I did agree with the overall point of its pointless lol
 
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Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
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When people's minds become more open, they're more open to science.

Faith is just fine if its scope is restricted to the spiritual realm, but as it stands right now, even the most compelling scientific evidence is often just dismissed by faith-blinded ideologues. That can have consequences in the physical world (aka "real world").

People's minds are open to what makes sense to them.
 

Ricochet

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 1999
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So you're a fan of red herrings and now non sequiturs. How does something always being taught make it a fabrication? No wonder you're an atheist.

But now you've made a quantitative argument. Would you mind outlining your calculations for us? How much does the reasons to believe weigh?
I combat red herrings with red herrings.

Don't be dense. This is in regards to belief in god. Ask yourself, why does an omnipotent, omnipresent deity who desires a personal relationship with every person on earth needs any sales pitch? Either the defining characteristics are wrong or it does not exist. You cannot have it both ways.

Belief is not a choice. Either something is compelling for you to believe or it is not. The rational mind does not offer you a choice. I can hold a red pen in my face and say it's blue and wish it is blue but my mind cannot allow it. Every teaching of religion creates a cognitive dissonance that the rational mind cannot resolve.

To answer your question, the reason to believe in god weighs zero.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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People's minds are open to what makes sense to them.
And what makes sense to them can sometimes be "adjusted" by well-stated arguments. Which gets us back to my original point.

So have I succeeded in changing YOUR mind?
 

Ricochet

Diamond Member
Oct 31, 1999
6,390
19
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Somebody make one of these idiots define "life" in a rigorous way, and then explain how their God fits that description. You see, either they believe that their God is "alive," and that's where life came from (life from life), or they really do believe that life can come from non-life, just that it takes magic to make it happen. Either way, the "life cannot come from non-life" canard is bullshit.

Interesting that you pointed that out. The origin of man from clay exist in Christianity as well as much older Sumerian religion. It's odd that Christians arguing "life cannot come from non-life" cannot see they're arguing against their own belief system.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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Interesting that you pointed that out. The origin of man from clay exist in Christianity as well as much older Sumerian religion. It's odd that Christians arguing "life cannot come from non-life" cannot see they're arguing against their own belief system.

They're not.

The "life" we refer to is "God". Science argues that we're made of star "DUST"... of course, science means that we share the same chemical make-up of stars. The Bible also says from dust you are, to dust you return. In other words, when humans die, their bodies become part of the earth, from which the Bible says they were taken.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I have a friend I speak with almost daily, a believer of some sort I don't really fully understand probably because he is far more intelligent than I am and can pose to himself ideas that I can't follow very well and we have been discussing some of what went on in shira's thread. He was raised a Catholic but drove his Jesuit teachers crazy, he is not a believer in any traditional sense. I tried as hard as I could to follow what his reasoning is, and I don't really think I can do it justice or even know if I have what he thinks correct in what I am about to say, but I felt he was saying something like this and I found what I imagined he might be saying interesting:

We do not know anything about what happened before time began, I guess not even before something like ten to the minus 41st second as I remember. Everything, time and space appeared from nothing. The human mind can't comprehend such a thing. I got the impression that for him in a way I do not fully understand, the implication is clear to him it means there is something that had to, I don't know what, be involved somehow. Any way I think he feels the incomprehensibility of it all points him to a God. Maybe Einstein had the same kind of feeling.

At any rate, the universe seems to be here and whether your sense is that it just happened and nothing more can be said, or that if looking at the same facts one feels there has to be a Creator, why is one opinion more rational than the other? The time space continuum of our existence seems to have a beginning and any more than that we do not know so it's really not our knowledge that matters so much as it is as to what our knowledge causes us to feel, it seems to me. So why should I, a person who believes the universe just happened and no emotional or deeper Ah Ha moment comes with that contemplation, reject the experience of those who experience a feeling that we were created, perhaps with some intention. Some people can look at a picture and see paint and others a masterpiece. Beyond a point in time our physics doesn't tell us anything. What is the physics that has this limitation?

Anyway, no matter how deeply the Atheists rejects the logic of the Believer, and visa versa, and no matter how flawed or seemingly rational that logic may be, why one believes and another doubts, the ultimate validity of either view seems to me to be equally unknowable and maybe even ultimately personal and with no real relevance to anybody else.

The matter of importance to me, then, is not so much whether or not a God exists, but what you justify with your belief, where it leaves you morally. Do you see the world as one or do you see friend and foe. What do you intend.
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
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There is no point in arguing against irrational beliefs people hold. You can't argue or counter beliefs that are based on completely irrational presumptions based out of delusion, emotion, fear etc. I think Hitchens, Dawkins and others like him who rally against religions and their teachings are doing something worthwhile, but it's the wrong way to go about it.

If a schizophrenic is in the room screaming about demons chasing them, you cannot reason them down from that position because as irrational as it is, they genuinely can see and hear the demon because of their brain being functionally broken. In their case you can give them medication to prevent their brain from creating hallucinations and stop the irrational behaviour. There is no medication to treat the delusion of religion, now you're dealing with programmed behaviour, fear of death, the ego etc.

The best medication for religion has been hard science, backed up by evidence, that disproves the stories of the Torah, Bible and Koran. The Earth is not 6000 years old - more like 6 billion, there was no garden of eden - the earth was a molten rock at inception, humans could not begin from just one single man and woman - the gene pool was too small, snakes don't talk -they lack the vocal chords and intelligence, the lights in the sky will not fall to the earth during the apocalypse - those lights are actually stars thousands, millions and billions of light years away etc. etc. etc.

All the science based claims of religions are being continually shut down. It's like has been said, god is an ever-receding pocket of ignorance. If we don't understand and haven't learned how a system works; 'oh that's god' Once we figure out that one, 'oh it's actually this system at work, here's how it works and here's how we can prove it' We still see the same broken logic at work today; science discovers evidence of the big bang, now the claim is 'oh god made the big bang happen, the creation story of the bible is no longer factual, it's all just metaphor' If you'd have been alive a thousand years ago and claimed that the creation story of the bible was not hard truth, you'd be executed, today that position is no longer tenable.

I don't think there needs to be an active vocal movement against religion, new knowledge is continually eroding the bubble of ignorance that is religion's attempt to explain the universe with wild stories of magical events. In just 2000 years we've nullified all the major scientific claims of religion, it's reasonable to expect in another 2000 that religion and all the ills and irrationality it spreads in society will be mostly a thing of the past.
 
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buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
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I combat red herrings with red herrings.
Pointing out red herrings isn't a red herring but whatever.
Don't be dense. This is in regards to belief in god. Ask yourself, why does an omnipotent, omnipresent deity who desires a personal relationship with every person on earth needs any sales pitch? Either the defining characteristics are wrong or it does not exist. You cannot have it both ways.
Is everything you do based upon "need"? I'll add false dichotomy to the list of fallacies you seem to enjoy using.
To answer your question, the reason to believe in god weighs zero.
You forgot to include your calculations.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
9,916
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delusional materialist said:
Somebody make one of these idiots define "life" in a rigorous way, and then explain how their God fits that description. You see, either they believe that their God is "alive," and that's where life came from (life from life), or they really do believe that life can come from non-life, just that it takes magic to make it happen. Either way, the "life cannot come from non-life" canard is bullshit.
You know full and well what we mean. Making useless quibbles is why I only see your nonsense when quoted. You're a hack.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
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They're not.

The "life" we refer to is "God". Science argues that we're made of star "DUST"... of course, science means that we share the same chemical make-up of stars. The Bible also says from dust you are, to dust you return. In other words, when humans die, their bodies become part of the earth, from which the Bible says they were taken.
They know we're talking about via natural unguided means. They aren't interested in honest discussion but nitpicking as if that makes abiogenesis any more likely.
 

buckshot24

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2009
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I'd be happy with a demonstration that an RNA molecule could form and start replicating in any realistic conditions. We can avoid the entire, "what is life" irrelevancy that way.
 
Nov 29, 2006
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I'd be happy with a demonstration that an RNA molecule could form and start replicating in any realistic conditions. We can avoid the entire, "what is life" irrelevancy that way.

I'd be happy with a demonstration from your god how he created all this from nothing. I wont hold my breath though, as i know you have nothing.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
You know full and well what we mean.
No, I really don't. Please, tell me your definition of "life." Are you familiar with the biological definition of "life"? Does your God fit that definition?

Making useless quibbles is why I only see your nonsense when quoted. You're a hack.
"Hack" appears to be bucko-speak for "indvidual who's arguments I can't refute, so I will pretend they do not exist."
 
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