Colleges and sexual assault

[Atreus21]

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...pus-sexual-assault-how-to-get-it-right-215585

On Thursday, Department of Education Secretary Betsy DeVos denounced the controversial campus sexual assault adjudication guidelines put in place by the Obama administration in 2011 as creating as a “failed system” that turned school disciplinary proceedings into “kangaroo courts.” In a speech at George Mason University, DeVos ticked off a litany of examples in which students accused of sexual assault had been expelled based on questionable evidence and a one-sided process. Although DeVos did not rescind the Obama guidelines outright, it is clear that she intends to replace them.

I confess I don't understand why colleges are involved in sexual assault cases. Isn't sexual assault a criminal matter? And therefore isn't it a matter for the criminal justice system, not colleges?

What am I missing here?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

This is about the student's educational career, not criminal guilt. What DeVos is doing is arguing that since around 2% of rape/assault accusations are shown to be false, the whole thing needs to be changed.

 

[Atreus21]

This is about the student's educational career, not criminal guilt. What DeVos is doing is arguing that since around 2% of rape/assault accusations are shown to be false, the whole thing needs to be changed.

Why are colleges involved at all in a criminal matter?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Why are colleges involved at all in a criminal matter?

They aren't.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Why are colleges involved at all in a criminal matter?

It might be for non-criminal levels, such as making a comment that someone finds offensive rather than rape, for example.

I'm just guessing, I have no idea.

 

[Pulsar]

Why are colleges involved at all in a criminal matter?

They are 'involved' in the same way your employer is involved if you are involved in some heinous crime. For instance, the NFL and domestic violence. Having a student at your college who is under investigation for rape is not something any Board of Directors or Trustees want.

But since those same Directors or Trustees don't want to actually excercise any power because that would leave them responsible, they create code of conducts and 'honor courts' where a supposed non-biased group of the students peers can decide their fate.

Nevermind that the people involved in these honor courts are ALWAYS biased, because they wouldn't be on the honor court to begin with if they didn't have a personal axe to grind.

So they skirt the law, skirt responsibility, and get rid of the basket of deplorables all in one fell swoop.

I watched one of these in action, and it was really really pathetic. Because it's not an actual legal proceding, there is no right to due process, no innocent until proven guiltly, or any other protections. It basically came down to 'You made our school look bad. See ya.'

 

[1sikbITCH]

This is about the student's educational career, not criminal guilt. What DeVos is doing is arguing that since around 2% of rape/assault accusations are shown to be false, the whole thing needs to be changed.

Is the GOP also arguing that since 1.6% of death row inmates were later exonerated before being wrongfully executed that the whole thing needs to be changed?

Maybe the threshold is 2% before they give a fuck.

 

[1sikbITCH]

They are 'involved' in the same way your employer is involved if you are involved in some heinous crime. For instance, the NFL and domestic violence. Having a student at your college who is under investigation for rape is not something any Board of Directors or Trustees want.

But since those same Directors or Trustees don't want to actually excercise any power because that would leave them responsible, they create code of conducts and 'honor courts' where a supposed non-biased group of the students peers can decide their fate.

Nevermind that the people involved in these honor courts are ALWAYS biased, because they wouldn't be on the honor court to begin with if they didn't have a personal axe to grind.

So they skirt the law, skirt responsibility, and get rid of the basket of deplorables all in one fell swoop.

I watched one of these in action, and it was really really pathetic. Because it's not an actual legal proceding, there is no right to due process, no innocent until proven guiltly, or any other protections. It basically came down to 'You made our school look bad. See ya.'

Hell yeah. That's why I was a School Safety. Call me a nerd again mofo and you'll be reported!

 

[Jaskalas]

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...pus-sexual-assault-how-to-get-it-right-215585

I confess I don't understand why colleges are involved in sexual assault cases. Isn't sexual assault a criminal matter? And therefore isn't it a matter for the criminal justice system, not colleges?

What am I missing here?

They want action outside the courts so they can act on a person being found guilty until proven innocent.

 

[VRAMdemon]

What a pitiful commentary this is on the personal character of Ms. DeVos. Mind you, she didn't announce the new rules, because there aren't any. Yet. In fact, she hasn't even started making new rules, instead she has said she "would seek feedback from the public and universities, and develop new rules." The whole thing is really just another elaborately staged dis of Obama and his administration, paid for by the taxpayers.

 

[brycejones]

What a pitiful commentary this is on the personal character of Ms. DeVos. Mind you, she didn't announce the new rules, because there aren't any. Yet. In fact, she hasn't even started making new rules, instead she has said she "would seek feedback from the public and universities, and develop new rules." The whole thing is really just another elaborately staged dis of Obama and his administration, paid for by the taxpayers.

This

 

[Jaskalas]

What a pitiful commentary this is on the personal character of Ms. DeVos. Mind you, she didn't announce the new rules, because there aren't any. Yet. In fact, she hasn't even started making new rules, instead she has said she "would seek feedback from the public and universities, and develop new rules." The whole thing is really just another elaborately staged dis of Obama and his administration, paid for by the taxpayers.

How dare she go through a public hearing to examine an issue!?
You, instead, suggest that she follow Trump's lead and rule by edict and ignorance?

 

[BravoTheta]

It could also because most campuses have their own police station

 

[UglyCasanova]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/08/opinion/betsy-devos-title-iv.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...478688d23b4_story.html?utm_term=.a2e50a5dbe06

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...rtable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/

Campus administrators got the message. Henceforth, the accused would be judged on a “preponderance of evidence” basis to determine guilt, sometimes known as the “50 percent plus a feather” standard. Accusers would be able to appeal “not guilty” verdicts. Efforts would be made to spare the accuser from being faced with direct cross-examination by the accused.

I'm not a fan of Betsy Devos but she's right on this. The way this was forced onto college admins was wrong and denying due process especially so. Even if the intentions were well meaning the way the Obama administration implemented was anything but just.

 

[Starbuck1975]

What a pitiful commentary this is on the personal character of Ms. DeVos. Mind you, she didn't announce the new rules, because there aren't any. Yet. In fact, she hasn't even started making new rules, instead she has said she "would seek feedback from the public and universities, and develop new rules." The whole thing is really just another elaborately staged dis of Obama and his administration, paid for by the taxpayers.

What she is doing is actually how the process should work. The Obama Administration fumbled this one, unless of course you reject the notion of due process.

That notorious alt-right fake news source the New Yorker published a great article on the subject:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news...and-the-both-sides-approach-to-sexual-assault

 

[UglyCasanova]

What a pitiful commentary this is on the personal character of Ms. DeVos. Mind you, she didn't announce the new rules, because there aren't any. Yet. In fact, she hasn't even started making new rules, instead she has said she "would seek feedback from the public and universities, and develop new rules." The whole thing is really just another elaborately staged dis of Obama and his administration, paid for by the taxpayers.

I can't tell if this comment was made in jest or not. She is seeking public comment to better craft whatever rule transpires, something that unfortunately didn't happen before (never a rule but rather a "letter of guidance", so a rule). Feedback is something that should be sought and encouraged.

 

[Starbuck1975]

http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...pus-sexual-assault-how-to-get-it-right-215585



I confess I don't understand why colleges are involved in sexual assault cases. Isn't sexual assault a criminal matter? And therefore isn't it a matter for the criminal justice system, not colleges?

What am I missing here?

What you are missing is that the Obama Administration set into motion through edict a policy that compelled public colleges and universities to setup sexual assault tribunals under Title IX, and many people kind of have a problem with eliminating due process from a criminal matter. Devos is opening that policy up to debate and discussion, which is appropriate.

Do a search for Mattress Girl.

 

[shortylickens]

HOW THE FUCK DID I NOT KNOW THIS BITCH WAS AT MY SCHOOL???!!!

 

[Puffnstuff]

My university had mandatory sexual harassment/assault classes for students last year in an attempt to educate to mitigate this type of behavior.

 

[Smoblikat]

This is about the student's educational career, not criminal guilt. What DeVos is doing is arguing that since around 2% of rape/assault accusations are shown to be false, the whole thing needs to be changed.

I think she might be arguing that many cases that are actually false do not get reported as such, making that 2% number misleading.

 

[zinfamous]

HOW THE FUCK DID I NOT KNOW THIS BITCH WAS AT MY SCHOOL???!!!

...would you have planned your day otherwise?

 

[Exterous]

This is about the student's educational career, not criminal guilt. What DeVos is doing is arguing that since around 2% of rape/assault accusations are shown to be false, the whole thing needs to be changed.

It goes well beyond that. Part of the problem is that Title IX is so vague so inconsistency is rampant and the efficacy of the process varies heavily by College and covers a range of unfair bias situations. Much of the below is a copy paste from P&Ns last topic on this issue:

For Title IX there are no juries, the accused is not entitled to hear all the evidence against them, the accused is not entitled to be present for any discussions of of the punishment or appeal, the accused can be immediately barred from classes, dorms, and campus activities before the accused is even talked to let alone an official hearing is held to review the legitimacy of the claim. They may not be allowed a lawyer. If they are allowed a lawyer the lawyer may not be allowed to participate in the process. The process also isn't required to adhere to testimony of the supposed victim:

A former football player is suing the university and the the U.S. Department of Education. Grant Neal said in his lawsuit that the university suspended him despite the woman involved explicitly telling the director of athletic training “I’m fine and I wasn’t raped.” Neal was suspended for as long as the woman remained at the university.

The biggest issue (IMO) is that Universities are not required to involve professionals or even people with experience in relevant fields. The people doing or running the investigation and rendering a verdict can be the Athletic director of the program the accused plays for, Music professors, or even other students. I'm betting a lot of Universities would be all in favor of clearer\better guidelines given the large number of lawsuits they are facing for both not doing enough and doing too much. (Although I don't expect many to come out an say that given the potential PR issues)

Edit: It appears many organizations have been and are continuing to express concerns about how Title IX is being handled currently:

Last year, the American Association of University Professors called for universities to be able to return to using the “clear and convincing” standard that many had used previously in Title IX cases. This year, the American College of Trial Lawyers similarly called for the standard of proof in Title IX proceedings to be clear and convincing evidence. Groups of professors at Harvard Law School and the University of Pennsylvania Law School have each released open letters expressing their concern that OCR has undermined due process and justice.

Universities are also losing more and more lawsuits about their handling of these situations:

The National Center for Higher Education Risk Management, one of the country’s largest higher-education law firms and consulting practices specializing in Title IX, recently released a white paper, “Due Process and the Sex Police.” It noted that higher-education institutions are “losing case after case in federal court on what should be very basic due process protections. Never before have colleges been losing more cases than they are winning, but that is the trend as we write this.”

This isn't to say there wasn't(isn't) an issue to address. There is a problem with Universities sweeping these under the rug to protect their reputation especially when it came to athletics. But Title IX isn't a solution as it both allows for Universities to easily sweep things under a rug and unfairly treat the accused

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...rtable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/
http://deadspin.com/why-title-ix-has-failed-everyone-on-campus-rape-1765565925

 

[theeedude]

She seems personally invested in this. Did one of her sons sexually assault someone?

 

[Puffnstuff]

Universities are also losing more and more lawsuits about their handling of these situations:

This is why they are turning to mandatory training which will also mitigate their responsibility should a student violate the policy having attended said training.

 

[Exterous]

This is why they are turning to mandatory training which will also mitigate their responsibility should a student violate the policy having attended said training.

I'm not sure training students will protect Universities from terrible investigation\trial processes