Computer Engineering? A worthless major?

[lowfatbaconboy]

By default CompEs only have ONE electronics course. That seems grossly lacking IMO.

yea i agree there though im pretty sure CU makes them take almost as many electronics courses as the EE majors

 

[DougK62]

*most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.

Maybe in LaLa Land, but it's not like that out in the real world anymore.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

By default CompEs only have ONE electronics course. That seems grossly lacking IMO.

yea i agree there though im pretty sure CU makes them take almost as many electronics courses as the EE majors

Well, the electronics course is your third circuits course in the course.

It kind of breaks down like this for both CompEs and EEs

Circuits Courses:
EE302 DC circuit analysis
EE411 AC and transient circuit analysis
EE438K Electronics circuits

Programming courses:
EE306 Intro to assembly
EE312 Intro t C
EE322C Data structures C++
EE319K Embedded systems on MC6812A4
EE316 Digital Logic Design

"Math" courses:
EE313 Linaer Signals
EE325 electromagnetics
EE351K Probstat

And then a few misc courses , (engineering communication, solid state devices, engineering economics, seminars, etc) plus your required 4 semesters of math, 2 of physics, history, english, and government

So as you can see there isn't much circuit analysis at all in the core cirriculum. Since most CompEs dont take any EE tech areas, one electronics course is lacking....

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: DougK62

*most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.

Maybe in LaLa Land, but it's not like that out in the real world anymore.

Not what this says

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: Elemental007

Originally posted by: DougK62

*most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.

Maybe in LaLa Land, but it's not like that out in the real world anymore.

Not what this says

Wow, one resource for UT graduates, that MUST be a microcosm for the entire industry!

 

[lowfatbaconboy]

Originally posted by: Elemental007

Originally posted by: DougK62

*most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.

Maybe in LaLa Land, but it's not like that out in the real world anymore.

Not what this says

thats still kinda crappy stats(not the ammount of money but the statistics themselves)...... 102 reporting for UT and nationaly 265 reported

edit: for BS in EE

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: Elemental007

Originally posted by: DougK62

*most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.

Maybe in LaLa Land, but it's not like that out in the real world anymore.

Not what this says

Wow, one resource for UT graduates, that MUST be a microcosm for the entire industry!

All the better for me then. I don't care what the 'average' is, I care for what 'my' job opportunities are. Hence, this relates most closely to ME, hence MY post. I don't give a sh!t what some CompE in bumfvck, Idaho makes when he graduates.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

Originally posted by: Elemental007

Originally posted by: DougK62

*most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.

Maybe in LaLa Land, but it's not like that out in the real world anymore.

Not what this says

thats still kinda crappy stats(not the ammount of money but the statistics themselves)...... 102 reporting for UT and nationaly 265 reported

edit: for BS in EE

How many BSEEs do you think graduate each year? About 200 or so. That's about 50% reporting. Most of those that didn't probably didn't use the ECAC in the first place. It's probably slightly skewed in favor of the higher salaries, I'll admit, but the average doesn't drop below about $50K for ANY of the graduating EEs i've talked to. Hell, a friend of mine is cooping next semester for something like $19 an hour and he's barely halfway through (and no it isn't ben that you talked do, he's cooping for $16.50 as well, which isn't nearly as good but still not bad for a 4th-semeter coop)

 

[lowfatbaconboy]

i thought ben was making $19 or $20 for his coop?

its not the 102 that bothers me but the 265 nationally that bothers me ........Austin has a pretty decent industry down there for CS CE and EE majors ........

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy
i thought ben was making $19 or $20 for his coop?

its not the 102 that bothers me but the 265 nationally that bothers me ........Austin has a pretty decent industry down there for CS CE and EE majors ........

I dont remember exactly. Someone is making $16.50 that I talked to, maybe I'm getting people mixed up.

I'd say just ignore the national stats for the most part. They are pretty worthless.

 

[badmouse]

The REAL question is how do you feel about CE? Do you love this stuff that you'd do it for free? If you win the lottery would the first thing you think be, whoopee now I can do CE all the time? Are you finding that doors are opening in your brain the more you learn this stuff?

Or are you doing it for the money?

Or are you really really good at it?

It helps to know what your soul is and where you want to go.

 

[ManSnake]

Originally posted by: Elemental007

Originally posted by: lowfatbaconboy

Originally posted by: Elemental007

Originally posted by: DougK62

*most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.

Maybe in LaLa Land, but it's not like that out in the real world anymore.

Not what this says

thats still kinda crappy stats(not the ammount of money but the statistics themselves)...... 102 reporting for UT and nationaly 265 reported

edit: for BS in EE

How many BSEEs do you think graduate each year? About 200 or so. That's about 50% reporting. Most of those that didn't probably didn't use the ECAC in the first place. It's probably slightly skewed in favor of the higher salaries, I'll admit, but the average doesn't drop below about $50K for ANY of the graduating EEs i've talked to. Hell, a friend of mine is cooping next semester for something like $19 an hour and he's barely halfway through (and no it isn't ben that you talked do, he's cooping for $16.50 as well, which isn't nearly as good but still not bad for a 4th-semeter coop)

Right now it's an employer's market. EE majors can find jobs, but so can other technical majors. Usually a position is open to both EE and CompE to apply, sometimes even for CSci. But as far as average salary of above $50K goes, maybe you are thinking of a few years ago.

When you graduate, be prepared to get offers in the low to mid $40K. My friend's nephew (EE) that graduated recently with a 3.6 from University of Minnesota got an offer from Honeywell for $42K and 2K bonus. My old boss at Boeing in Everett, WA told me he is hiring fresh grads with previous internship experience into the autoflight group at $45K a piece. My other friend who is a hiring manager at Goodrich (another system integrator) said the salary they normally give out these days are in the $40K range. So this is reality!

 

[HokieESM]

Originally posted by: badmouse
The REAL question is how do you feel about CE? Do you love this stuff that you'd do it for free? If you win the lottery would the first thing you think be, whoopee now I can do CE all the time? Are you finding that doors are opening in your brain the more you learn this stuff?

Or are you doing it for the money?

Or are you really really good at it?

It helps to know what your soul is and where you want to go.

Absolutely. Sometimes, you have to take a job just to pay the bills. But you don't pursue that kind of job from the beginning--you find something you truly love doing.

 

[schizoid]

Sigh.

You people, I swear....

I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?

I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!

If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.

If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.

Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.

But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.

The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.


So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

 

[HokieESM]

Originally posted by: schizoid
Sigh.

You people, I swear....

I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?

I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!

If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.

If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.

Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.

But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.

The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.


So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

lol.... well, BSEEs have a bad habit of taking grunt jobs. Well, BSs in any engineering field have a habit of doing that. Some MS people do actually manage to do some engineering work--and use their coursework from college. I have several friends who work in the defense industry who actually do very technical work similar to what they wrote their masters thesis on.

Of course, on a personal level, I have to agree... given that I'll be finishing my PhD in Engineering Mechanics in a few months.

 

[Hector13]

Originally posted by: schizoid

So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

you won't see me complaining making 6 figures as a "grunt".

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: schizoid
Sigh.

You people, I swear....

I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?

I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!

If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.

If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.

Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.

But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.

The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.


So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

if you are getting your phd in CS and your c/c++ is weak and you don't know java, that means you have gotten two cs degrees without learning to program so have three options to choose from:

1) you went to schools with terrible CS programs and your degrees dont count for much at all

2) you are stupid and cheated you way through your programs to get degree that is meaningless.

3) you are lying about the whole thing

Having a phd in comp sci enables you to specialize in a paticular field but when it comes down to it you have to write code to prove your stuff works. a guy with a phd in compsci who cant write the programs he/she designs/talks about is useless.

 

[jaydee]

Originally posted by: Ranger X

Originally posted by: jaydee
If you want to keep your options open and maintain your interest, I suggest a change to EE.

Of the several EE friends that I had, one with an impressive GPA ended up working for a lowballing Taiwanese company, the other one went into sales, and the other one ended up going to grad school because he couldn't find a job (mind you, he was actively searching for a year and a half). If you get a BSEE, it's worthless. Now if you're speaking MSEE, that's another a whole new ballpark. MSEE's can find jobs where they can actually apply their knowledge instead of doing some mindless task like BSEE's.

That could possibly be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Tell me you don't honestly believe that.

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: schizoid
Sigh.

You people, I swear....

I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?

I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!

If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.

If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.

Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.

But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.

The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.


So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

if you are getting your phd in CS and your c/c++ is weak and you don't know java, that means you have gotten two cs degrees without learning to program so have three options to choose from:

1) you went to schools with terrible CS programs and your degrees dont count for much at all

2) you are stupid and cheated you way through your programs to get degree that is meaningless.

3) you are lying about the whole thing

Having a phd in comp sci enables you to specialize in a paticular field but when it comes down to it you have to write code to prove your stuff works. a guy with a phd in compsci who cant write the programs he/she designs/talks about is useless.

Oh. Ok.

Turns out I don't know what I'm talking about. For a second there, I thought I knew something about being a scientist. Turns out I don't. Mah bad.

Never mind....nothing to see here....

Move along.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

How much does GPA play a factor into getting a job right out of college? My GPA is pretty bad, and I have a chance of getting it up to around 3.0-3.3 by the time I graduate. I do extremely well in my CompSci classes, but in my other classes like math, chem., physics, I am not doing very well. Is this something I should be worried about?

 

[HokieESM]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
How much does GPA play a factor into getting a job right out of college? My GPA is pretty bad, and I have a chance of getting it up to around 3.0-3.3 by the time I graduate. I do extremely well in my CompSci classes, but in my other classes like math, chem., physics, I am not doing very well. Is this something I should be worried about?

A 3.0-3.3 will be fine for getting a job post-college. Sure, a higher GPA might be nice, but that should be plenty for getting A job. For a particular, highly-competitive job, maybe not. The bigger problem would be getting in a good grad-school with a 3.3.... that might be difficult.

An engineer not doing well in math or physics does not bode well. Computer Science != Computer Engineering. Knowledge of the hardware (particularly the physics of operation) will require significant math skills (and, obviously, knowledge of physics). It all depends on how much education you want and what you want to do for work.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: schizoid
Sigh.

You people, I swear....

I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?

I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!

If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.

If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.

Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.

But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.

The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.


So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

what school did you get your BS in? i completely understand and agree with your sentiments about the science part of computer science, but it seems to me that most modern departments would give their graduates at least some proficiency in prgramming.

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: schizoid
Sigh.

You people, I swear....

I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?

I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!

If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.

If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.

Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.

But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.

The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.


So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

what school did you get your BS in? i completely understand and agree with your sentiments about the science part of computer science, but it seems to me that most modern departments would give their graduates at least some proficiency in prgramming.

Ameesh? Take notes. You could learn a thing or two from Gopunk.

I do know how to program. I coded up a freakin' command line interpreter for the lambda calculus in ML. Does this help one get a job? No. Not in the least. I can also code in Prolog, Lisp, and a host of other things that don't really have any practical applications outside of academia (I'm okay with this, seeing as I don't want to be outside of academia. But I digress...

I've learned, at one point, just about every nook and cranny there is in C++. I don't really remember much of it, and, honestly, the last time I tried to use templates, I think the code exploded in my face.

I can also deal with complex Markov chains and have been known to solve the occasional MMp1 queuing model.

As for Java, it was simply a matter of timing. My first ever CS class, in the fall if 1996 was in Pascal. It was switched to C approximately 6 months later. I didn't actually "get" to C++ until the end of my sophomore year, in a data structures class. It was almost a year later, in a programming languages class, that we covered serious C++ (this was winter 99). All my networks classes were in C or C++. A year after I'd taken them, they were changed to java.

UC Davis, where I went to school, won't touch Windows.

My senior year, I took a grad seminar in database integration, and I had to code up a Java front end for the XML-ql query engine. Swing wasn't even standardized at that point. I just took some other code, hacked away at it until I got it to vaguely do what I want.

This semester, (at USC, where I'm doing my PhD) I modified some agent code that was in Java.

So, would I say I know Java? No, not at all. Could I learn it as well as anyone else on the plannet in a matter of days? Sure. Will I ever bother? No, not likely.

Like I said, I'd rather tinker around with POMDPs.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: schizoid

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: schizoid
Sigh.

You people, I swear....

I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?

I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!

If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.

If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.

Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.

But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.

The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.


So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

what school did you get your BS in? i completely understand and agree with your sentiments about the science part of computer science, but it seems to me that most modern departments would give their graduates at least some proficiency in prgramming.

Ameesh? Take notes. You could learn a thing or two from Gopunk.

I do know how to program. I coded up a freakin' command line interpreter for the lambda calculus in ML. Does this help one get a job? No. Not in the least. I can also code in Prolog, Lisp, and a host of other things that don't really have any practical applications outside of academia (I'm okay with this, seeing as I don't want to be outside of academia. But I digress...

I've learned, at one point, just about every nook and cranny there is in C++. I don't really remember much of it, and, honestly, the last time I tried to use templates, I think the code exploded in my face.

I can also deal with complex Markov chains and have been known to solve the occasional MMp1 queuing model.

As for Java, it was simply a matter of timing. My first ever CS class, in the fall if 1996 was in Pascal. It was switched to C approximately 6 months later. I didn't actually "get" to C++ until the end of my sophomore year, in a data structures class. It was almost a year later, in a programming languages class, that we covered serious C++ (this was winter 99). All my networks classes were in C or C++. A year after I'd taken them, they were changed to java.

UC Davis, where I went to school, won't touch Windows.

My senior year, I took a grad seminar in database integration, and I had to code up a Java front end for the XML-ql query engine. Swing wasn't even standardized at that point. I just took some other code, hacked away at it until I got it to vaguely do what I want.

This semester, (at USC, where I'm doing my PhD) I modified some agent code that was in Java.

So, would I say I know Java? No, not at all. Could I learn it as well as anyone else on the plannet in a matter of days? Sure. Will I ever bother? No, not likely.

Like I said, I'd rather tinker around with POMDPs.

I think you get aroused by considering yourself a scientist. That's fitting considering you called everyone else a dolt and admitted you received a degree and were weak in its functional manifestations. That would be like Einstein saying he understood the principle of relativity pictorially, but he just couldn't quite get the math worked out.

Anyway, simma down

 

[schizoid]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: schizoid

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: schizoid
Sigh.

You people, I swear....

I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?

I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!

If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.

If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.

Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.

But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.

The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.


So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.

what school did you get your BS in? i completely understand and agree with your sentiments about the science part of computer science, but it seems to me that most modern departments would give their graduates at least some proficiency in prgramming.

Ameesh? Take notes. You could learn a thing or two from Gopunk.

I do know how to program. I coded up a freakin' command line interpreter for the lambda calculus in ML. Does this help one get a job? No. Not in the least. I can also code in Prolog, Lisp, and a host of other things that don't really have any practical applications outside of academia (I'm okay with this, seeing as I don't want to be outside of academia. But I digress...

I've learned, at one point, just about every nook and cranny there is in C++. I don't really remember much of it, and, honestly, the last time I tried to use templates, I think the code exploded in my face.

I can also deal with complex Markov chains and have been known to solve the occasional MMp1 queuing model.

As for Java, it was simply a matter of timing. My first ever CS class, in the fall if 1996 was in Pascal. It was switched to C approximately 6 months later. I didn't actually "get" to C++ until the end of my sophomore year, in a data structures class. It was almost a year later, in a programming languages class, that we covered serious C++ (this was winter 99). All my networks classes were in C or C++. A year after I'd taken them, they were changed to java.

UC Davis, where I went to school, won't touch Windows.

My senior year, I took a grad seminar in database integration, and I had to code up a Java front end for the XML-ql query engine. Swing wasn't even standardized at that point. I just took some other code, hacked away at it until I got it to vaguely do what I want.

This semester, (at USC, where I'm doing my PhD) I modified some agent code that was in Java.

So, would I say I know Java? No, not at all. Could I learn it as well as anyone else on the plannet in a matter of days? Sure. Will I ever bother? No, not likely.

Like I said, I'd rather tinker around with POMDPs.

I think you get aroused by considering yourself a scientist. That's fitting considering you called everyone else a dolt and admitted you received a degree and were weak in its functional manifestations. That would be like Einstein saying he understood the principle of relativity pictorially, but he just couldn't quite get the math worked out.

Anyway, simma down

Uh, your analogy is a bit off there, but I see your point.

Yes, I am, in fact, quite proud of being a scientist. Functional manifestations? Depends on what you mean by functional, I guess.

Would I be as good as the next guy working in some cube farm in some god-forsaken campus in Silicon valley? Off the bat? No. Could I learn? I guess. Would I ever want to? No.

If I sound self-agrandizing, it's because, for whatever reason, precious few people really understand what the S in CS means, or what it's like to actually be a part of that. Not that that's a bad thing, really, just frustrating sometimes.