Computers as Firewall/Routers...

tsapiano

Member
Jan 13, 2002
37
0
0
Hi,

I'm finnally thinking of moving up to one of the local broadband providers. We've had two for a while, however neither company is particularly the type I'd like to do business with so I've held out as long as I could, but this 56.6kbps connection is starting to get really s-l-o-w. Anyway, at the same time I'd like to build up a network of my more recent computers (Pentium class and up) to (a) share the connection and (b) provide file sharing capacity. So, with that said I have a choice in how exactly to go about implementing the network and especially the security/routing to the outside world. Running the wiring shouldn't be a problem, so I really have no interest in 802.11 wireless stuff. The way I see it, this basically leaves me with three choices:

1) Buy a dedicated hardware router/firewall unit - the simplist and most obvious answer, consumes little power and doesn't require any cooling (ie quiet). It is also less to maintain, and being a much simpler device means that there are less things to potentially break down. Additionally, most of these units rely simply on the nature of NAT to protect the network, and as I understand it, aren't really firewalls.

2) Repurpose one of my old 486-class machines - removes any cost, asside from a second ISA network controller and a little more memory. It also provides me with theoretically better security, a lot more control over the network and the system as well as additional capabilities. Finnally, it will provide me with a dedicated Linux machine to play around with. The problem is that most of these older machines are big, use a lot of power and are quite noisy (while it is completely passively cooled, the old harddrives were never really built with noise considerations). All of the >=pentium machines other than my main workstation are laptops, so none of them can be repurposed for the task - and I am a little worried about the slow speed of these boxes.

3) Build a new machine - without having to worry about video cards, monitors, large HDDs, the machine should potentially be rather inexpensive. Getting a motherboard with a lot of integrated features (video, ethernet, etc.) could also help cut down potential costs. Additionally, going with a slower, older PIII processor and PC100 memory could drag down prices quite a bit - as well as allow for passive cooling on the processor. This would provide me with more power than the 486s, and hence more flexibility and the ability to add additional features (eg use it as the SMTP server instead of the ISP, provide simple FTP service for transfering files, internal Web service for testing PHP scripts, etc.). Also, with quieter modern HDDs (5400rpm units) and modern power saving, it could potentially run a lot quieter and consume a lot less power than the 486s.

Any suggestions, or alternate options. I'd like to go for (3), but just have to figure out what kind of machine I can afford, and if I can build something stable enough for this service. I'm thinking I should be able to build a simple P3/400MHz/256MB/10GB machine for not too much coin - just a matter of how stable it would be. Anyone have suggestions for parts? As for the 486 option, I'd have to figure out which machine to do it with. I have a few, the two bigger ones are a 486/66 with an IDE disk subsystem (800MB) and a 486/33 with a SCSI subsystem (1.2GB). I can move the memory between them, as well as buy more - however I can't move the SCSI drives to the 66MHz box (SCSI card is EISA, 66MHz machine only has ISA slots).

I know the simple thing to do would be to just buy the prebuilt units, however I feel the computer based options would provide me with some valuable learning options - and naturally I like to tweak with things, and the routers don't really provide that However, asside from the interest and cost differences - do the Linux firewall/routing packages offer any better/worse security if setup properly? Naturally computer-based solutions would offer more protection features, but they are also a lot more complex than their dedicated breathren - and hence more open to vulnerabilities.

I appreciate any help you can provide
 

Wik

Platinum Member
Mar 20, 2000
2,284
0
0
Take the 486/66 with IDE and go with freesco. You can use the 800meg hard drive if you would like to play with other packages, but to start, all you need is a floppy.

I have been using a Compaq Presario CDS524 and freesco for a few years now. It is a 486/66 and I have a 1 gig hard drive in it. It is almost silent. You will not even need much for ram.
 

Xuttah

Member
May 10, 2000
127
0
0
As long as you have an old PC with a CD rom & decent memory, this is the way to go.

Astaro Security Linux

Don't know how much Linux you know, but this is particularly great if you're a novice. Download the the image, create a CD from it, and boot up. It installs itself, comes with a completely web based config tool, and is incredibly easy, yet strong. A friend is running it and it has held up very well (going on 2 years).
 

tsapiano

Member
Jan 13, 2002
37
0
0
Thanks for the help guys

That Astaro package looks quite good, just that according to the website you need at least a 300MHz processor (and hence a pentium machine) and 64MB of RAM. The RAM might be doable, however I'm not sure that the machine can handle that much - remember 64MB of RAM was an insanely massive ammount way back when

The Freesco program does look good, as I've always been a sucker for efficiency. The only concern that I have is weather or not it supports PPPoE (I should have mentioned that before ;P). If I can get it running completely out of RAM, then that would be a major plus as the sound would definately be decreased. Just have to figure out where I can find another ISA Ethernet card
 

FUBAR

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
618
0
0
It looks like your case may be one for a specialty appliance (consumer router.) Most can be had for under 100, many closer to 50. I believe the better ones support PPPoE as well. Many of the NAT devices also do have some packet inspection, you just have to dig for it. My Netgear had all sorts of stuff for blocking packets of certain types, destinations, sources and other stuff. Many people think they don't have it because it's not in the web interface.

My experience, my netgear was flaky on my ISP after a while, but that's cuz they suck and use 2000 boxes that always are dieing for their servers... and the admins are idiots. My linux box however has not had any problems I didn't introduce.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
"1. Buy a dedicated hardware router/firewall unit - the simplist and most obvious answer, consumes little power and doesn't require any cooling (ie quiet). It is also less to maintain, and being a much simpler device means that there are less things to potentially break down. Additionally, most of these units rely simply on the nature of NAT to protect the network, and as I understand it, aren't really firewalls."

That's what I did. I have a Dlink Dl-701 residential gateway, which is connected to an 8-port 10/100 switch. It does act as a firewall. When connected directly to the cable modem, my computer's firewall registers multiple access attempts in just a few minutes. With the 701 installed, I usually see only one attempt on my computer a week. It does a pretty nice job, and has good management features.
 

tsapiano

Member
Jan 13, 2002
37
0
0


<< It looks like your case may be one for a specialty appliance (consumer router.) Most can be had for under 100, many closer to 50. I believe the better ones support PPPoE as well. Many of the NAT devices also do have some packet inspection, you just have to dig for it. My Netgear had all sorts of stuff for blocking packets of certain types, destinations, sources and other stuff. Many people think they don't have it because it's not in the web interface. >>



That was kind of what I was asking - will the computer based solutions be any better (or worse) as far as security & performance of the dedicated units? Cost isn't really much of an issue as $100 or even $150 is not a problem, and getting another ISA ethernet card is likely not going to be cheap (since no one likely makes them anymore, and they are in rather short supply).

The primary thing that turned me off of the hardware routers was the fact that they relied soully on the natural protection of the NAT system, and not on packet inspection. Of course I know of very expensive firewall equipment that can do that, however I'm really not looking at spending that much for a device that can't do anything else (the new computer would have a lot more practical uses).

If there is a dedicated hardware unit with real packet inspection firewalling in the $100-$200 range, than I'd rather go that route. It will be smaller and quieter than the computer solution, as well as be able to run off one of my UPSes for a longer period (with the two laptops, power isn't really a problem - and I would assume a little router would last a good while on a 600VA UPS).

If I am looking at a hardware unit, does anyone have any potential suggestions? I really don't care about pretty web interfaces (not that it hurts, just not an asset), DHCP, VPN, 802.11, etc. If the unit has PPPoE, real packet inspection, fully-controlable port-blocking, a 10/100 4-port switch and a telnet interface (or heck, a serial interface would be okay as well) that's all I need. Given the choice, I'd rather have a well-built unit (read: metal, not plastic), as well as decent readouts and a RS-232 port for dial-up backup - however none of them are necessary. My primary requirements are security, reliability and speed (in that order), and I could really care less how easy to use/setup it is

Thanks!
 

CWoolmer

Junior Member
Apr 21, 2002
17
0
0
I have made a router - a 486 DX4 100MHz, 32 MB (EDO) RAM, 3.2 GB HDD, CD, FLOPPY, i put 6 x ISA 3Com Etherlink 3s in (Parallel Tasking cards each with RJ-45, BNC and AUI connectors) and linked each card to my hub using CAT5e 350MHz cable with one card connected to my coaxial cable backbone, this is part of my home made beowulf cluster which im experimenting with!

Craig (14)
 

Rhi

Member
Dec 29, 2001
135
0
0
I have a simple Linksys 4 port router, and they added stateful packet inspection with a firmware update. Less than $100.

-Rhi
 

tboneuls

Banned
Nov 17, 2001
384
0
0
Why not get a router (linksys, etc) and amke a linux box to play around with - it sounds much better than a machine 24/7 for internet.
 

tsapiano

Member
Jan 13, 2002
37
0
0


<< Why not get a router (linksys, etc) and amke a linux box to play around with - it sounds much better than a machine 24/7 >>



I'm thinking about that now, just have to figure out how cheap I can get a stable but basic machine for (It was easier to justify when it was beefing up my security).

The main reason I was considering the dual purpose was that the stuff I wanted to play around with was more web-server oriented. Naturally, if a machine is good for that purpose, than routing should be an issue - although the more I think about it, dicking around with the machine might hurt its security I don't need a publicly accessable web server, just somewhere to test out stuff and play with programming related to network/internet functions without shelling out the bucks for colocation

Thanks for the suggestions guys, now just have to do some more research on router units - anyone know of any reviews done recently re:security and performance of DSL/Cable routers?
 

ttn1

Senior member
Oct 24, 2000
680
0
0
PCLiquidator has lots of cheap computers to choose from. The shipping is pretty expensive, depending on where you are, but I haven't had any problem getting things I have ordered from them.

As for advantages of a homemade linux router. For one, you know exactly what kind of security solution you have. It may take a little longer to bring up than a cheap "hardware" router, but you'll be better for the effort. You'll also have something that is infinitely more configureable. You'll feel like you're actually in control of your options and security.

For a newbie, I would suggest Smoothwall. It's easy to install and configure. Has a very nice interface for configuration.

I use linux router project at home and my router has been running for 2 years with zero downtime. Other than moving from one house to another. At work we are currently using smoothwall.

Edit: I should have read your entire post first. An old laptop can make a quite nice router machine. You just need to figure a way to get 2 nics into it. Alot of times you can use one PCMCIA and one parallel nic. If they happen to have usb you can also use that. It may take a bit more tinkering with the install, but it is doable. As for noise, throw it in a closet. I have yet to see an average 486 PC use more than about 50 Watts. Finally, a 486 will be more than sufficient for linux router project, Freesco or Smoothwall. We run smoothwall on 486/66Mnz machines at work, but it will run on less.
 
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