Concealed weapons on campus

[Gunslinger08]

Criminals aren't going to apply for a permit and will carry anyway. Not allowing permit holders to carry on campus only penalizes the non-criminals.

 

[Kelvrick]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
honestly i dont mind.
people out to murder conceal regardles sof the law

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
The only reason I could think of that it would not be a good idea is that somebody might notice a person carrying a gun, assume it was legal, and fail to report in an unusual situation, possibly stopping preventative action. However, since that type of prevention has not ever, to my knowledge, happened, it doesn't seem a strenuous objection. Usually the crazies are either caught before they get the weapons to school or they aren't caught til it's too late.

yea but how often has that happened? school shooters don't go to school and take their time. they know their time is limited, they get down to business right away. there is no chance to report the situation. they either go in brazenly shooting, or hide it well then shoot up the place asap.

It happens all the time, it just doesn't get as much media coverage because apparently the media is liberal and for gun control.

Here is an example.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNat...09%5CNAT20020917a.html

Every time I get my American Rifleman magazine from the NRA, it has an armed citizen section that relates to people defending themselves with firearms.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
honestly i dont mind.
people out to murder conceal regardles sof the law

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
The only reason I could think of that it would not be a good idea is that somebody might notice a person carrying a gun, assume it was legal, and fail to report in an unusual situation, possibly stopping preventative action. However, since that type of prevention has not ever, to my knowledge, happened, it doesn't seem a strenuous objection. Usually the crazies are either caught before they get the weapons to school or they aren't caught til it's too late.

yea but how often has that happened? school shooters don't go to school and take their time. they know their time is limited, they get down to business right away. there is no chance to report the situation. they either go in brazenly shooting, or hide it well then shoot up the place asap.

It happens all the time, it just doesn't get as much media coverage because apparently the media is liberal and for gun control.

Here is an example.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNat...09%5CNAT20020917a.html

Every time I get my American Rifleman magazine from the NRA, it has an armed citizen section that relates to people defending themselves with firearms.

I think you responded to a different scenario. The question wasn't "how often do armed students subdue a crazy" but "how often does a crazy get spotted on campus BEFORE the shooting starts." And I mentioned in my original post, I can't think of any times.

 

[Kelvrick]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
honestly i dont mind.
people out to murder conceal regardles sof the law

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
The only reason I could think of that it would not be a good idea is that somebody might notice a person carrying a gun, assume it was legal, and fail to report in an unusual situation, possibly stopping preventative action. However, since that type of prevention has not ever, to my knowledge, happened, it doesn't seem a strenuous objection. Usually the crazies are either caught before they get the weapons to school or they aren't caught til it's too late.

yea but how often has that happened? school shooters don't go to school and take their time. they know their time is limited, they get down to business right away. there is no chance to report the situation. they either go in brazenly shooting, or hide it well then shoot up the place asap.

It happens all the time, it just doesn't get as much media coverage because apparently the media is liberal and for gun control.

Here is an example.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNat...09%5CNAT20020917a.html

Every time I get my American Rifleman magazine from the NRA, it has an armed citizen section that relates to people defending themselves with firearms.

I think you responded to a different scenario. The question wasn't "how often do armed students subdue a crazy" but "how often does a crazy get spotted on campus BEFORE the shooting starts." And I mentioned in my original post, I can't think of any times.

Yes, that might be a little hard, but they can certainly stop it from affecting a greater number of people.

I'm supposed to be working and googling for "students stop school shooting" gives a lot of results to sort through.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
honestly i dont mind.
people out to murder conceal regardles sof the law

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
The only reason I could think of that it would not be a good idea is that somebody might notice a person carrying a gun, assume it was legal, and fail to report in an unusual situation, possibly stopping preventative action. However, since that type of prevention has not ever, to my knowledge, happened, it doesn't seem a strenuous objection. Usually the crazies are either caught before they get the weapons to school or they aren't caught til it's too late.

yea but how often has that happened? school shooters don't go to school and take their time. they know their time is limited, they get down to business right away. there is no chance to report the situation. they either go in brazenly shooting, or hide it well then shoot up the place asap.

It happens all the time, it just doesn't get as much media coverage because apparently the media is liberal and for gun control.

Here is an example.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNat...09%5CNAT20020917a.html

Every time I get my American Rifleman magazine from the NRA, it has an armed citizen section that relates to people defending themselves with firearms.

I think you responded to a different scenario. The question wasn't "how often do armed students subdue a crazy" but "how often does a crazy get spotted on campus BEFORE the shooting starts." And I mentioned in my original post, I can't think of any times.

Yes, that might be a little hard, but they can certainly stop it from affecting a greater number of people.

I'm supposed to be working and googling for "students stop school shooting" gives a lot of results to sort through.

"BEFORE" I don't know any. During or after there have been a few however. Appalachian Law school, and the Pearl Mississippi school shootings are the two that come immediately to mind for that.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I think you responded to a different scenario. The question wasn't "how often do armed students subdue a crazy" but "how often does a crazy get spotted on campus BEFORE the shooting starts." And I mentioned in my original post, I can't think of any times.

At Alfred Univ just the other day, the entire campus was locked down because of a nerf gun and a game of humans vs zombies.

Originally posted by: jagec
First of all, not "anybody" can get a license to carry a gun. Second, what makes it "too dangerous" on campus, but perfectly safe everywhere else in the city?

Among the top 5 answers to that question will probably be that there's a higher rate of alcohol abuse on college campuses; alcohol and guns don't mix. (I'm not saying that; I just anticipate that would be among the most popular answers.)

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Ok, fair enough.

Now then...do you realize that licensed carriers are 5 times less likely to be involved in a violent crime than an average citizen? That's also less often than law enforcement officers (statistically). In other words there's no logical, factual, statistically supportable reason to be uncomfortable over persons with a license carrying.

Do you realize that licensed carriers are 5 times less likely to live in environments where violent crime occurs at a much higher rate? i.e. less violent crime in suburbia; but more licensed carriers in suburbia. More violent crime in the inner city, fewer licensed carriers in the inner city.

I'm not against concealed carry at all. I'm in favor of it. However, I hate raw statistics because they're tossed about as if they have a lot more meaning than they actually carry.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Quintox

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Quintox
Full story here

This is just plain stupid. I think they should let them have a permit to carry tazers, or another non-lethal weapon. This way, if a gunman does come on campus into a classroom, the student(s) can tazer them, and have a good chance of effectively stopping him.

The stupid one is the one that thinks that a non lethal weapon is a good way to stop someone with a gun. That's a great way to get yourself shot.

Edit - Not saying you're stupid, just try and use some common sense for a minute.

Oh I know the more effective way is to of course shoot the gunman, but if he comes into your class room, the tazer can reach him just fine. I just think having anybody be able to get a license is too dangerous.

ok, let's make something clear, it is not just "anybody" who can have a license,
atleast for CA, it is someone with;

CLEAN CRIMINAL RECORD, no felonies, no history of mental/pyschological issues, no drug use/court determined alcoholics, no restraining orders, no dishonorable military discharge, even a bad driving record can get you disqualified.

you must have several personal references/letters vouching for your moral character
you must qualify with the weapon you carry

and yes, they do check EVERYTHING.

any criminal or pyscho is not going to bother with being pored over by a microscope by LE investigators, pay several hundred dollars to get a CCW permit, AND qualify in a CCW class.
If they actually did, they could be thrown in jail for even applying.

If anything you should be more scared of people who DON'T have permits.

 

[classy]

We don't need a college campus full of teenagers and young adults running around with concealed guns. Give me a break.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I think you responded to a different scenario. The question wasn't "how often do armed students subdue a crazy" but "how often does a crazy get spotted on campus BEFORE the shooting starts." And I mentioned in my original post, I can't think of any times.

At Alfred Univ just the other day, the entire campus was locked down because of a nerf gun and a game of humans vs zombies.

Originally posted by: jagec
First of all, not "anybody" can get a license to carry a gun. Second, what makes it "too dangerous" on campus, but perfectly safe everywhere else in the city?

Among the top 5 answers to that question will probably be that there's a higher rate of alcohol abuse on college campuses; alcohol and guns don't mix. (I'm not saying that; I just anticipate that would be among the most popular answers.)

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Ok, fair enough.

Now then...do you realize that licensed carriers are 5 times less likely to be involved in a violent crime than an average citizen? That's also less often than law enforcement officers (statistically). In other words there's no logical, factual, statistically supportable reason to be uncomfortable over persons with a license carrying.

Do you realize that licensed carriers are 5 times less likely to live in environments where violent crime occurs at a much higher rate? i.e. less violent crime in suburbia; but more licensed carriers in suburbia. More violent crime in the inner city, fewer licensed carriers in the inner city.

I'm not against concealed carry at all. I'm in favor of it. However, I hate raw statistics because they're tossed about as if they have a lot more meaning than they actually carry.

That may well be, but if they were a danger the one would offset the other...but it doesn't happen. The point isn't about the greatness of the carriers, but the lack of rational reason to fear them.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: classy
We don't need a college campus full of teenagers and young adults running around with concealed guns. Give me a break.

In almost no states can those under 21 carry, so that's not a problem at all. Furthermore, try reading the thread where I point out that the majority of college students are now older adults.

 

[mitchel]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I think you responded to a different scenario. The question wasn't "how often do armed students subdue a crazy" but "how often does a crazy get spotted on campus BEFORE the shooting starts." And I mentioned in my original post, I can't think of any times.

At Alfred Univ just the other day, the entire campus was locked down because of a nerf gun and a game of humans vs zombies.

Originally posted by: jagec
First of all, not "anybody" can get a license to carry a gun. Second, what makes it "too dangerous" on campus, but perfectly safe everywhere else in the city?

Among the top 5 answers to that question will probably be that there's a higher rate of alcohol abuse on college campuses; alcohol and guns don't mix. (I'm not saying that; I just anticipate that would be among the most popular answers.)

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Ok, fair enough.

Now then...do you realize that licensed carriers are 5 times less likely to be involved in a violent crime than an average citizen? That's also less often than law enforcement officers (statistically). In other words there's no logical, factual, statistically supportable reason to be uncomfortable over persons with a license carrying.

Do you realize that licensed carriers are 5 times less likely to live in environments where violent crime occurs at a much higher rate? i.e. less violent crime in suburbia; but more licensed carriers in suburbia. More violent crime in the inner city, fewer licensed carriers in the inner city.

I'm not against concealed carry at all. I'm in favor of it. However, I hate raw statistics because they're tossed about as if they have a lot more meaning than they actually carry.

I would like to see income, situation, place of living standarized. Then we can really compare. I'm betting that 5x still remains 2x+.

 

[FallenHero]

Originally posted by: Quintox

CINCINNATI, Ohio (CNN) -- "Would you rather just sit there and cower underneath a desk when someone executes you or would you rather have a chance to defend your life? That's what it really boils down to."
art.studentgun.cnn.jpg

Michael Flitcraft says students should be allowed to protect themselves from potential killers.

Michael Flitcraft, a 23-year-old sophomore at the University of Cincinnati, has become a leading advocate for college students to carry weapons on campus. He's an organizer for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, a grass-roots organization that was formed after last year's Virginia Tech massacre that left 32 college students and professors dead.

The group boasts more than 25,000 members.

Standing on the Cincinnati campus, Flitcraft calmly explained he is licensed to carry a weapon in Ohio. He wants to carry his gun on campus to defend himself from potential killers, but by law he can't.

"To me it makes no sense that I can defend myself legally over there," he said, pointing to the city streets. "But I am a felon if I step on the grass over here."

Full story here

This is not a smart idea IMO. I think they should let them have a permit to carry tazers, or another non-lethal weapon. This way, if a gunman does come on campus into a classroom, the student(s) can tazer them, and have a good chance of effectively stopping him.

You are a bigger idiot than I thought if you really do think that.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

What's wrong with giving all the tiger's their claws and letting NS sort things out.

Crime is down in all concealed carry areas; way down. The impending disaster of allowing all citizens this choice (as if it isn't guaranteed in the Constitution in the US), has never happened, just the opposite, always. Stop fear mongering. Want to make a real difference in human death rates, stop driving.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: classy
We don't need a college campus full of teenagers and young adults running around with concealed guns. Give me a break.

Ignorance is annoying.

 

[Deeko]

I'm not anti gun at all....to be honest I don't care one way or another. I don't have a gun and I don't care if the person next to me has one. I guess, in a sense, that makes me "pro gun rights" even though it wouldn't affect me if they were outlawed either. But I really, really hate reading the rants of the pro gun crowd. The attitude you morons bring to the table makes your situation (and by association, you) so much more deplorable.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1

Originally posted by: Quintox
Guns + college students = not good IMO.

I agree that most college students should not carry guns, but that's why concealed weapons generally require some kind of license or testing or something. Random nutcases with their "I'm going to leave the US if Bush wins the election" mentality cannot get a permit.

The crazy people who can't get a license end up stealing guns anyway. Those two kids involved in Columbine didn't buy those guns at a gun store; too young.
Cho Seung-Hui, the Virginia Tech guy, probably bought his guns legally, but he took them to class even though it's against school policy. The policy seems to make sense - people like Cho are dangerous and should not be carrying guns around. The problem is that those crazy people don't listen, so we need to change the rules to deal with that issue.

I agree 100% with this one caveat, the rules already say we can, anywhere. There is no actual debate on the meaning of the 2nd amendment. The founding fathers were quite verbose about it elsewhere. The individual vs. militia debate is an absolute sham.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"
-- Thomas Jefferson

Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest.
-- From the Declaration of the Continental Congress, July 1775 (this is all of them folks)

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that his people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."
-- Patrick Henry

"To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-- George Mason

"The great object is, that every man be armed. [...] Every one who is able may have a gun."
-- Patrick Henry

"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..."
-- Samuel Adams

I could go on and on and on.

Oh but here are two gems from outside the US

The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so.
-- Adolf Hitler, April 11 1942

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Deeko
I'm not anti gun at all....to be honest I don't care one way or another. I don't have a gun and I don't care if the person next to me has one. I guess, in a sense, that makes me "pro gun rights" even though it wouldn't affect me if they were outlawed either. But I really, really hate reading the rants of the pro gun crowd. The attitude you morons bring to the table makes your situation (and by association, you) so much more deplorable.

example?

 

[ShotgunSteven]

Originally posted by: Deeko
I'm not anti gun at all....to be honest I don't care one way or another. I don't have a gun and I don't care if the person next to me has one. I guess, in a sense, that makes me "pro gun rights" even though it wouldn't affect me if they were outlawed either. But I really, really hate reading the rants of the pro gun crowd. The attitude you morons bring to the table makes your situation (and by association, you) so much more deplorable.

I'm not anti boy band at all....to be honest I don't care one way or another. I don't have any boy band CD's and I don't care if the person next to me has one. I guess, in a sense, that makes me "pro boy band" even though it wouldn't affect me if they were outlawed either. But I really, really hate reading the rants of the pro boy band crowd. The attitude you morons bring to the table makes your situation (and by association, you) so much more deplorable.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven

Originally posted by: Deeko
I'm not anti gun at all....to be honest I don't care one way or another. I don't have a gun and I don't care if the person next to me has one. I guess, in a sense, that makes me "pro gun rights" even though it wouldn't affect me if they were outlawed either. But I really, really hate reading the rants of the pro gun crowd. The attitude you morons bring to the table makes your situation (and by association, you) so much more deplorable.

I'm not anti boy band at all....to be honest I don't care one way or another. I don't have any boy band CD's and I don't care if the person next to me has one. I guess, in a sense, that makes me "pro boy band" even though it wouldn't affect me if they were outlawed either. But I really, really hate reading the rants of the pro boy band crowd. The attitude you morons bring to the table makes your situation (and by association, you) so much more deplorable.

Anyone still have his "song"? (I know, Deeko, that Deeko is dead, but like Schrodinger's cat, lives on forever on the internet)

 

[Triumph]

.

 

[Triumph]

Gun control arguments appeal to emotion. Gun rights arguments appeal to logic. It's as simple as that. There hasn't been one pro-gun control argument in this thread that offered anything other than an emotional response.

 

[everman]

I think it would be fine, but an age requirement of 22+ would not be unreasonable. Currently campuses are just as public as any other public place, anyone meaning to do harm can walk in without confrontation by security. Because the campus is such a public place, it would be proper to allow ccw permit holders to carry there. The other option is to increase security, wall-off the entire campus and have security checkpoints to keep people inside safe. Or simply continue having little to no security with no means to defend oneself. A less extreme option is to increase armed security personnel, but those rent-a-cops aren't exactly loved on most campuses either, do you want an army of them running around armed with guns?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: marvdmartian
For those people that oppose concealed carry on campus, think of it this way. If you're one of the nutjobs you're so scared about having guns, and you know for a fact that no one but (maybe) campus security is carrying a weapon, don't you think it's MORE likely that said nutjob is going to go on a killing spree??

However, if there's a chance that the nutjob, just as soon as he takes out his firearm to begin his slaughter, might get shot by a law abiding citizen who's carrying a concealed firearm..... don't you think maybe the nutjob is going to think twice about starting some shit?

Let's face reality, shall we?

I'd hope we have such logically thinking nutjobs as in your example.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Criminals aren't going to apply for a permit and will carry anyway. Not allowing permit holders to carry on campus only penalizes the non-criminals.

And if that "criminal" ended saving the day, would you say everyone should be allowed to carry without a permit?

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Originally posted by: zoiks
Outlaw guns for the public. Anyone caught would be shot down by the police. That'll do the trick.

What, are you kidding?

1. That gives the police too much power

2. Criminals with the intent to use guns on other people don't get their guns through legal channels. Making it harder and less useful to have a carry/FID license is only exacerbating the problem.