Creationism questions. What's the divide

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Farang
I don't care what other people think the only reason this is an issue is because they try to force it into science classrooms. It is a philosophical question and belongs in a philosophy or religion course.

Ultimately, I acare a lot what other people think - for their good and mine.

If the Taliban views suddenly became popular tomorrow here, I'd see the courts overtake by religion as laws were passed for it, I'd see equivalents to blowing up buddha statues.

I don't want to see that sort of narrow minded intolerance, so I do see it as every citizen's responsibility to promote a 'liberal' (classic sense), tolerant culture in our society.

(When I say liberal, I mean the nation's historic values of respecting rationality, etc.)

I understand that cultures can change. Our own culture has had periods of hysteria, such as the McCarthy era. I understand that an 'enlightened culture' is created, not automatic.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If one word of the Bible is wrong, the whole thing is a pile of shit.

That seems to be the position of fundamentalists.

I know you meant it sarcastically

Whether Moonie knew it or not, he was quoting scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

See the word all?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If one word of the Bible is wrong, the whole thing is a pile of shit.

That seems to be the position of fundamentalists.

I know you meant it sarcastically

Whether Moonie knew it or not, he was quoting scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

See the word all?

There is usefulness in wrongness.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If one word of the Bible is wrong, the whole thing is a pile of shit.

That seems to be the position of fundamentalists.

I know you meant it sarcastically

Whether Moonie knew it or not, he was quoting scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

See the word all?

There is usefulness in wrongness.

Some things are true whether you believe them or not. Man nor science does not have the answers to spiritual beliefs. We are inherently flawed, not to mention egomanics.

Im not saying YOU are wrong, but making a blanket statement. One of us is right, and we both think we are. I have as much evidence as you in my belief, and why people cant accept differences and let people exercise their constitutional rights to freedom OF religion (NOT freedom FROM religion) the world would be a better place. Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If one word of the Bible is wrong, the whole thing is a pile of shit.

That seems to be the position of fundamentalists.

I know you meant it sarcastically

Whether Moonie knew it or not, he was quoting scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

See the word all?

There is usefulness in wrongness.

Some things are true whether you believe them or not. Man nor science does not have the answers to spiritual beliefs. We are inherently flawed, not to mention egomanics.

Im not saying YOU are wrong, but making a blanket statement. One of us is right, and we both think we are. I have as much evidence as you in my belief, and why people cant accept differences and let people exercise their constitutional rights to freedom OF religion (NOT freedom FROM religion) the world would be a better place. Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we

That we will. But I think you misunderstand my position. I do not say that God does or does not exist either way. I just believe that if God does exist, His justice would be so perfect that He would not be overly concerned with my lowly obeisance as He would be with my actions and my sense of acceptance to the reality He created. So from my perspective, science makes God look grander in almost every way than religion does, if God does exist. And I think that makes some religions feel threatened, and not in a righteous way.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If one word of the Bible is wrong, the whole thing is a pile of shit.

That seems to be the position of fundamentalists.

I know you meant it sarcastically

Whether Moonie knew it or not, he was quoting scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

See the word all?

There is usefulness in wrongness.

I'm more shocked by the need for "correction" in the word of god. If he is omnipotent and perfect in every way, why would humans need to correct his inspired work?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we

Respect for the beliefs of others would be nice. Tell that to the fundies of any religion who insist that their way (whoever THEY are) is the only way and insist on imposing it on others.

Tell it to the fundie Christians who insist their mythology is the equivalent of science.

Tell it to those Christians who would kill, and have killed, in the name of their alleged savior from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition to the Salem witch trials to whatever other excuse they want to offer for their brutalization of others who reject their beliefs.

Then, tell it to those fundie Islamists who would kill, and have killed, those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

Tell all of those who would impose their dogma, their beliefs and their rituals on others and would kill those who do not bow down to whatever ooga booga mystery oil fantasies they might imagine.

Religion is a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to explain the unknown, but at least, in philosophy, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. AFIC, it's just a political power structure based on, and maintained through, ignorance and fear.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If one word of the Bible is wrong, the whole thing is a pile of shit.

That seems to be the position of fundamentalists.

I know you meant it sarcastically

Whether Moonie knew it or not, he was quoting scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

See the word all?

There is usefulness in wrongness.

I'm more shocked by the need for "correction" in the word of god. If he is omnipotent and perfect in every way, why would humans need to correct his inspired work?

It's not saying that the scripture should be corrected but that the scripture can be used for the correction of others.

This issue deals with the interpretation of 'God-breathed' or God-inspired. Does that mean that God wrote every single world, or does it mean that God told men and then these fallible men put the words down on paper? The latter is obvious IMO but not everyone sees it that way.

edit: and I was just saying that if God allowed for this fallibility of men, that it would prove useful to Him. It would test out who will accept authority over their own sense of morality.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: LumbergTech
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If one word of the Bible is wrong, the whole thing is a pile of shit.

That seems to be the position of fundamentalists.

I know you meant it sarcastically

Whether Moonie knew it or not, he was quoting scripture:

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness

See the word all?

There is usefulness in wrongness.

Some things are true whether you believe them or not. Man nor science does not have the answers to spiritual beliefs. We are inherently flawed, not to mention egomanics.

Im not saying YOU are wrong, but making a blanket statement. One of us is right, and we both think we are. I have as much evidence as you in my belief, and why people cant accept differences and let people exercise their constitutional rights to freedom OF religion (NOT freedom FROM religion) the world would be a better place. Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we

That we will. But I think you misunderstand my position. I do not say that God does or does not exist either way. I just believe that if God does exist, His justice would be so perfect that He would not be overly concerned with my lowly obeisance as He would be with my actions and my sense of acceptance to the reality He created. So from my perspective, science makes God look grander in almost every way than religion does, if God does exist. And I think that makes some religions feel threatened, and not in a righteous way.

Then I misunderstood. I agree 100%.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we

Respect for the beliefs of others would be nice. Tell that to the fundies of any religion who insist that their way (whoever THEY are) is the only way and insist on imposing it on others.

Tell it to the fundie Christians who insist their mythology is the equivalent of science.

Tell it to those Christians who would kill, and have killed, in the name of their alleged savior from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition to the Salem witch trials to whatever other excuse they want to offer for their brutalization of others who reject their beliefs.

Then, tell it to those fundie Islamists who would kill, and have killed, those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

Tell all of those who would impose their dogma, their beliefs and their rituals on others and would kill those who do not bow down to whatever ooga booga mystery oil fantasies they might imagine.

Religion is a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to explain the unknown, but at least, in philosophy, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. AFIC, it's just a political power structure based on, and maintained through, ignorance and fear.

Sure if you tell it to the athiests who kill in the name of hatred, and persecute, and belittle.

Touche.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we

Respect for the beliefs of others would be nice. Tell that to the fundies of any religion who insist that their way (whoever THEY are) is the only way and insist on imposing it on others.

Tell it to the fundie Christians who insist their mythology is the equivalent of science.

Tell it to those Christians who would kill, and have killed, in the name of their alleged savior from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition to the Salem witch trials to whatever other excuse they want to offer for their brutalization of others who reject their beliefs.

Then, tell it to those fundie Islamists who would kill, and have killed, those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

Tell all of those who would impose their dogma, their beliefs and their rituals on others and would kill those who do not bow down to whatever ooga booga mystery oil fantasies they might imagine.

Religion is a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to explain the unknown, but at least, in philosophy, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. AFIC, it's just a political power structure based on, and maintained through, ignorance and fear.

Sure if you tell it to the thiests who kill in the name of hatred, and persecute, and belittle.

Touche.
:thumbsup:

 

Corbett

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
3,074
0
76
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we

Respect for the beliefs of others would be nice. Tell that to the fundies of any religion who insist that their way (whoever THEY are) is the only way and insist on imposing it on others.

Tell it to the fundie Christians who insist their mythology is the equivalent of science.

Tell it to those Christians who would kill, and have killed, in the name of their alleged savior from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition to the Salem witch trials to whatever other excuse they want to offer for their brutalization of others who reject their beliefs.

Then, tell it to those fundie Islamists who would kill, and have killed, those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

Tell all of those who would impose their dogma, their beliefs and their rituals on others and would kill those who do not bow down to whatever ooga booga mystery oil fantasies they might imagine.

Religion is a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to explain the unknown, but at least, in philosophy, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. AFIC, it's just a political power structure based on, and maintained through, ignorance and fear.

Sure if you tell it to the thiests who kill in the name of hatred, and persecute, and belittle.

Touche.
:thumbsup:

 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we

Respect for the beliefs of others would be nice. Tell that to the fundies of any religion who insist that their way (whoever THEY are) is the only way and insist on imposing it on others.

Tell it to the fundie Christians who insist their mythology is the equivalent of science.

Tell it to those Christians who would kill, and have killed, in the name of their alleged savior from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition to the Salem witch trials to whatever other excuse they want to offer for their brutalization of others who reject their beliefs.

Then, tell it to those fundie Islamists who would kill, and have killed, those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

Tell all of those who would impose their dogma, their beliefs and their rituals on others and would kill those who do not bow down to whatever ooga booga mystery oil fantasies they might imagine.

Religion is a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to explain the unknown, but at least, in philosophy, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. AFIC, it's just a political power structure based on, and maintained through, ignorance and fear.

On a personal level, I agree with, but I think that message is so counterproductive.

For many people, their church is their social circle. It's something they lean on when times are tough and it's something they give to when times are good. They volunteer in the name of religion and they donate money to charitable causes in the name of religion. People have credited their churches with helping them turn their lives around and I see nothing wrong with any of that.

If religion inspires you, then that's fantastic and I wish more people would find something meaningful and fulfilling in their lives.

My only gripe is when religion becomes forced on others (like me) or when religion is used as an excuse to hate another group.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Respect, sir, respect. One day one of will find out-wont we

Respect for the beliefs of others would be nice. Tell that to the fundies of any religion who insist that their way (whoever THEY are) is the only way and insist on imposing it on others.

Tell it to the fundie Christians who insist their mythology is the equivalent of science.

Tell it to those Christians who would kill, and have killed, in the name of their alleged savior from the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition to the Salem witch trials to whatever other excuse they want to offer for their brutalization of others who reject their beliefs.

Then, tell it to those fundie Islamists who would kill, and have killed, those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

Tell all of those who would impose their dogma, their beliefs and their rituals on others and would kill those who do not bow down to whatever ooga booga mystery oil fantasies they might imagine.

Religion is a bad excuse for philosophy. Both attempt to explain the unknown, but at least, in philosophy, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. AFIC, it's just a political power structure based on, and maintained through, ignorance and fear.

On a personal level, I agree with, but I think that message is so counterproductive.

For many people, their church is their social circle. It's something they lean on when times are tough and it's something they give to when times are good. They volunteer in the name of religion and they donate money to charitable causes in the name of religion. People have credited their churches with helping them turn their lives around and I see nothing wrong with any of that.

If religion inspires you, then that's fantastic and I wish more people would find something meaningful and fulfilling in their lives.

My only gripe is when religion becomes forced on others (like me) or when religion is used as an excuse to hate another group.

I agree and feel the same about atheists. Ive had my share who hate and persecute as much as those religious they say do the same. It isnt just the believers that are hypocritical. And as I stated, man is inherently flawed, and hypocritical.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Thats basically it. People who think the earth poofed into existence 4000 or 10000 years ago are looonies.

As are those who believe there is no higher creator Thankfully they are such a minority they really are irrelevant.

Hm, let's see.

1. Who created the creator?

2. Not believing in a deity that we've never had any direct evidence of is not the equivalent of believing man suddenly appeared on earth a few thosand years ago when we do have direct evidence contradicting such a belief. Further, the modern monotheism is no more rational than previous civilizations' polytheism which today are blithely referred to as "myths".

3. There's far more atheists than jews and I don't think you'd be able to find anyone who thinks the jewish population is irrelevent, specifically considering the concentration of non-believers in the fields of science and technology. Additionally, trends indicate more and more young people identify themselves as secular, and with the advent of global communication to eradicate mom and dad's happy lies, that minority will only grow. Given the complications inherent in such surveys, specifically with regard to the personal and varying definitions of 'atheism' or 'agnosticism', I'm more than satisfied with the more easily trackable (and growing) identifier of 'secular.'
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Thats basically it. People who think the earth poofed into existence 4000 or 10000 years ago are looonies.

As are those who believe there is no higher creator Thankfully they are such a minority they really are irrelevant.

Hm, let's see.

1. Who created the creator?

2. Not believing in a deity that we've never had any direct evidence of is not the equivalent of believing man suddenly appeared on earth a few thosand years ago when we do have direct evidence contradicting such a belief. Further, the modern monotheism is no more rational than previous civilizations' polytheism which today are blithely referred to as "myths".

3. There's far more atheists than jews and I don't think you'd be able to find anyone who thinks the jewish population is irrelevent, specifically considering the concentration of non-believers in the fields of science and technology. Additionally, trends indicate more and more young people identify themselves as secular, and with the advent of global communication to eradicate mom and dad's happy lies, that minority will only grow. Given the complications inherent in such surveys, specifically with regard to the personal and varying definitions of 'atheism' or 'agnosticism', I'm more than satisfied with the more easily trackable (and growing) identifier of 'secular.'

1. Who said the creator was created? Atheists?

2. mmmmkay

3. Bolded: bull.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: GTKeeper
Thats basically it. People who think the earth poofed into existence 4000 or 10000 years ago are looonies.

As are those who believe there is no higher creator Thankfully they are such a minority they really are irrelevant.

Hm, let's see.

1. Who created the creator?

2. Not believing in a deity that we've never had any direct evidence of is not the equivalent of believing man suddenly appeared on earth a few thosand years ago when we do have direct evidence contradicting such a belief. Further, the modern monotheism is no more rational than previous civilizations' polytheism which today are blithely referred to as "myths".

3. There's far more atheists than jews and I don't think you'd be able to find anyone who thinks the jewish population is irrelevent, specifically considering the concentration of non-believers in the fields of science and technology. Additionally, trends indicate more and more young people identify themselves as secular, and with the advent of global communication to eradicate mom and dad's happy lies, that minority will only grow. Given the complications inherent in such surveys, specifically with regard to the personal and varying definitions of 'atheism' or 'agnosticism', I'm more than satisfied with the more easily trackable (and growing) identifier of 'secular.'

1. Who said the creator was created? Atheists?

2. mmmmkay

3. Bolded: bull.
What if I happen to believe that the universe has always been? How is that any different than believing in a creator that has always existed?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Sure if you tell it to the athiests who kill in the name of hatred, and persecute, and belittle.

I agree. I never said there's any excuse, including religion or the lack of it, for murder or persecution. The point of the thread and my post is that religion is just used as an excuse for such stupidity. It's also used as a blugeon to impose idiocy like creationism as a sorry substitute for real, observable scientific knowledge and phenomena because it disagrees with someones ooga booga mystery oil fantasies.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Sure if you tell it to the athiests who kill in the name of hatred, and persecute, and belittle.

I agree. I never said there's any excuse, including religion or the lack of it, for murder or persecution. The point of the thread and my post is that religion is just used as an excuse for such stupidity. It's also used as a blugeon to impose idiocy like creationism as a sorry substitute for real, observable scientific knowledge and phenomena because it disagrees with someones ooga booga mystery oil fantasies. IMHO

Bolded added for accuracy.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Sure if you tell it to the athiests who kill in the name of hatred, and persecute, and belittle.

I agree. I never said there's any excuse, including religion or the lack of it, for murder or persecution. The point of the thread and my post is that religion is just used as an excuse for such stupidity. It's also used as a blugeon to impose idiocy like creationism as a sorry substitute for real, observable scientific knowledge and phenomena because it disagrees with someones ooga booga mystery oil fantasies. IMHO

Bolded added for accuracy.

Bullshit! Creationism IS ooga booga fantasy. It is NOT science. That is NOT an OPINION. That is FACT!

Don't you dare presume to label MY posts with YOUR lame ass opinion! :thumbsdown: :|
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
I can answer the original question in less than two sentences.

1. The large majority of Christians don't believe in Creationism as meaning that "everything" was made a couple thousand years ago, and the line of separation is fanatacism to the exclusion of logic.


That's less than two sentences.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Sure if you tell it to the athiests who kill in the name of hatred, and persecute, and belittle.

I agree. I never said there's any excuse, including religion or the lack of it, for murder or persecution. The point of the thread and my post is that religion is just used as an excuse for such stupidity. It's also used as a blugeon to impose idiocy like creationism as a sorry substitute for real, observable scientific knowledge and phenomena because it disagrees with someones ooga booga mystery oil fantasies. IMHO

Bolded added for accuracy.

Bullshit! Creationism IS ooga booga fantasy. It is NOT science. That is NOT an OPINION. That is FACT!

Don't you dare presume to label MY posts with YOUR lame ass opinion! :thumbsdown: :|

And atheism is stupidity, blindness, and ego in its purest form. FACT!

lol
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: loki8481
it's basically between those christians who read the bible as a literal, historical document and those who do not.

This is pretty much it. I know I personally believe in evolution but also believe in Christian teachings. Though I am of the mindset that Gods hand was always there with the world since its inception. There is even scriture that relates to the fact God and humans share a different timeline, for example 2 Pet 3:8. I know many christians who look at the bible of the direct word of god in its representation. I am of the belief that man by nature is imperfect, and very likely made mistakes when creating a god inspired scripture. The bible is not a history book.


Funny enough, the divide among Christians over this is larger than the divide between Christians and Evolutionist.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91

The huge logical flaw with Creationism and "Intelligent Design" is that neither belief answers any questions; they just pass the buck over to an omnipotent god-being without explaining how the god-being came into existence. Both beliefs assume that life cannot possibly evolve on is own because it's too complex but then they give carte blanch acceptance to a supremely powerful being with amazing powers whose evolution and existence is infinitely more improbable than human evolution without even attempting to explain how that god-being came into existence.

It's fun watching them twist themselves into pretzels as they try to explain how their belief is based on reason and not faith. I have more respect for the humble person who just admits that his belief is based on baseless, blind faith.

Must watch video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj0ZkkYRwhA

 
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