Cryptocoin Mining?

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Binky

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,046
4
81
Investing in new hardware to mine bitcoins seems silly right now. If you have existing hardware, especially a system that might already run 24/7, the incremental cost is much lower than the sale price of the coins (i.e. its profitable). It is not profitable enough to pay for the hardware in any reasonable time frame.

A 6950 can generate about 1.2 bitcoins per week at stock-ish speeds with a power draw of maybe 270 watts (based on my system, 2600k, single 6950). Two every two days from two cards seems overly optimistic.
 

krnmastersgt

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2008
2,873
0
0
Well that was the beauty of the idea of the 7970 for me, I could mine for a while and make some cash on the side but once it became inefficient then I just got myself an upgraded video card from my 460 without as much of the guilt

That being said those Jalapenos seem pretty nice, I'd even be willing to get the SC for $1300 if I had any reasonable idea of how many Thashes all the pools together are computing. If I could have the machine pay itself off within 3-6 months I'd put down the money for it personally. Worst case scenario maybe sell the unit off after a few months of mining to someone who's invested a lot into his operation and makes money on the scale, for a discount of course.
 
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MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,915
2,696
136
I never said that's what would happen (I said even if that happens hypothetically). I said if difficulty increases very fast as new ASICs come online, it shuts out the little guy. I don't think the Jalapeno will be that great since the delta between it and what I would imaging the pool rates will be much greater than it is today between our GPUs and the pool rates (in other words it may end up making way less $ in proportion than today's GPUs do despite its 3.5GH/sec rate).

That was the only conclusion I could draw from your statement that
If difficulty skyrockets 1000x, what you have long-term is 0.0001% of top guys holding 99.9999% of BTC.
and
Imagine the top 50 accounts holding 95% of BTC where the value of BTC has reached $10k, or something. OK, let's say the top 10 accounts have 1 million BTC each.
45% of BTC has already been mined. What you described is impossible unless your new ASIC miners buy up all the existing BTC on the open market, which anyone could do anyway miner or not.

Actually it has not. If you look at the 12-15 months graph, it's all over the place, as high as $33 per BTC. Contrary to your belief, there is no magical formula that determines a correlation between difficulty and BTC value. There are many other macro-economic factors involved. In fact, even the most knowledgeable people on the topic can't exactly pinpoint why Bitcoin value has increased in the last 1.5 months to $9. There are various explanations, with difficulty being just 1 of many factors, speculation being another, lack of derivatives to short the currency, etc.:
http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/26295113993/june-2012-results
Prior to it's hacking, Bitcoinica was an option to short the currency, so means of doing that has been available.

Obviously price isn't going to track hashing rate exactly, but the profitability of GPU miners has been a huge factor in determining price and difficulty.

After the artificial speculative bubble last summer, the price/hashrate relationship has been pretty stable. I'm not at all claiming that price is dependent on hashrate, I actually argued against it. I'm just giving a reason why it's been pretty stable the last 12 months.


Right now the Single is $599 and can do 832 Megahash/sec which is very close to an overclocked HD7970 that costs $400-450.

The current MiniRig costs $15k and can do 25 GH/sec (or 30x faster than the Single).

In the future:

- Jalapeno = 3.5 GH/sec - $149
- Single = 40 GH/sec (11x faster) - $1299
- MiniRig = 1000 GH/sec (285x faster) - $30k (<Everyone who owns the MiniRig can trade to this one and get $15k rebate).

Using a Single/GPU mining today isn't as bad. The performance delta between the next 2 levels is much larger than it is today (esp. the single at $1300 is as fast as the $15k MiniRig). Basically, if these numbers are true, unless you get the Single, you can pretty much forget about making anything worth talking about. That Jalapeno's 3.5GH/sec against the entire network will be much much worse than a 600-800 Mhash system today is when compared against the network. This is because the new added units will increase the difficulty more relative to Jalapeno, esp. since the top rigs will be 285x faster.
Unless you have a crystal ball, the bolded part is purely speculation. The top unit might be 285x faster than a Jalapeno, but that doesn't say anything about what the total hashrate will be. Keep in mind that the Minirig SC is a $30k unit; to increase the current 14Th/s network rate 10x would require $3.8M worth of Minirigs even if they can meet their 1TH/s spec. At 140TH/s, a single $150 Jalapeno would make up 0.0025% of the network. That's basically the same percentage as a single 6950 right now. The 6950 won't keep your coffee warm without sparks, either.


Yes, but if the entry level point to have any decent mining rig moves from $400 GPU to $1300 Single, that essentially would mean mining will become concentrated in the hands of the more affluent individuals. In other words, beyond that point the upkeep would be very expensive unless you get in with 2-3 of these Singles right away and constantly keep upgrading. It's too hard to say right now what will happen but unlike a GPU that can actually be used for games, these $1300 ASICs are not very useful outside of bitcoin hashing.

Are you willing to drop $1300 on one of those just to try it out?
I considered a Jalapeno, but decided against it given the sketchiness of the situation and BFL's track record. I do think it's a little unfortunate since it will keep new miners from entering the market (I started with a single 6870 that I bought to game with), but I don't think it's anything like the doom and gloom scenario you've listed. Again, in the next year and a half the number of BTC in circulation will only increase by 25%, and I would actually be surprised if BFL delivered ASICs by the end of October (or ever). ASIC will come eventually, but by that time half the BTC that will ever exist will already have been mined and the rate of new generation will be much slower, so it's value as a currency shouldn't change much unless no new users enter the market and attrition moves old players out.
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,915
2,696
136
Investing in new hardware to mine bitcoins seems silly right now. If you have existing hardware, especially a system that might already run 24/7, the incremental cost is much lower than the sale price of the coins (i.e. its profitable). It is not profitable enough to pay for the hardware in any reasonable time frame.

A 6950 can generate about 1.2 bitcoins per week at stock-ish speeds with a power draw of maybe 270 watts (based on my system, 2600k, single 6950). Two every two days from two cards seems overly optimistic.
Your power draw seems really high, do you downclock the memory when you're not using it or have a lot of other things hooked up? My desktop with two 1GB 6950s flashed to 6970 clocks and shaders do 740MH/s and pull 330W at the wall with a 2500k and an 80+ Bronze PSU. That's about 0.4BTC/day with about $1.25US/day energy use (inc. AC). I'd still be pulling 80-90W without mining though since I also use it as a file server for my other devices.
 

Binky

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,046
4
81
Your power draw seems really high, do you downclock the memory when you're not using it or have a lot of other things hooked up? My desktop with two 1GB 6950s flashed to 6970 clocks and shaders do 740MH/s and pull 330W at the wall with a 2500k and an 80+ Bronze PSU. That's about 0.4BTC/day with about $1.25US/day energy use (inc. AC). I'd still be pulling 80-90W without mining though since I also use it as a file server for my other devices.
No, I don't downclock the memory but I've tinkered with it. I never quite got it to work well with Afterburner on my MSI 6950. My 2600k is running at about 4.2ghz I think, which might also push up the power draw. Going from idle to mining adds about 110 watts from video card power draw alone, so adding another card to that should add at least 150-170 watts under load. I have a hard time believing your power draw of 330 watts.
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,915
2,696
136
No, I don't downclock the memory but I've tinkered with it. I never quite got it to work well with Afterburner on my MSI 6950. My 2600k is running at about 4.2ghz I think, which might also push up the power draw. Going from idle to mining adds about 110 watts from video card power draw alone, so adding another card to that should add at least 150-170 watts under load. I have a hard time believing your power draw of 330 watts.

I'm looking at the KillAWatt right now. If I change the mem speed from 200MHz to 1200MHz, power jumps from 330W to 395W with no increase in hash rate, BTW.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,035
2,247
126
How high do you have the clocked and what kind of temps are you holding?

I have them at 800Mhz at 1.015v for 60C, and 810Mhz at 0.995v for 70C. I do about 650MH/s and get about 0.4-0.5BTC per day with both cards mining.
 
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krnmastersgt

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2008
2,873
0
0
I'm a bit confused with all the software out there and how Bitcoins are quite stored (some seem to be locally, some stored off-site etc.), can anyone recommend a good guide to look at for me to just play around with Bitcoin mining?

Currently installed guiminer which seems simple enough to use, just unsure of what account info I'm supposed to be plugging into this, I thought it'd be a pool's account info or something but its asking for the my mining account name (which is...?).

Edit: Nvm it was surprisingly simple.
 
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Binky

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,046
4
81
An easy way to store them is to make a mtgox account, then have the pool you join deposit your coins directly to that account.
 

WhoBeDaPlaya

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2000
7,414
402
126
No, I don't downclock the memory but I've tinkered with it. I never quite got it to work well with Afterburner on my MSI 6950. My 2600k is running at about 4.2ghz I think, which might also push up the power draw. Going from idle to mining adds about 110 watts from video card power draw alone, so adding another card to that should add at least 150-170 watts under load. I have a hard time believing your power draw of 330 watts.
Afterburner doesn't work well when trying to severely download mem. Use ATI Tray Tools.
 

krnmastersgt

Platinum Member
Jan 10, 2008
2,873
0
0
An easy way to store them is to make a mtgox account, then have the pool you join deposit your coins directly to that account.

Ah thanks this does seem helpful!

Another question for those of you that don't mind, what pools do you guys mine for? I'm just mining for the default on guiminer which is slush's. My 460 only computes at around 57 Mhashes/s though so I don't expect to get anywhere with this, just trying it out

I paused my worker for a while then resumed but it seems I don't get credit that way, and only continuous work is being rewarded, at least on the site.
 
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LightRider

Senior member
May 10, 2001
372
1
81
rgvzgm.blogspot.com
An easy way to store them is to make a mtgox account, then have the pool you join deposit your coins directly to that account.

Terrible advice. Bitcoins not in your sole and direct control are not your bitcoins. If you leave them with a third party, particularly on an internet facing server, expect to lose them, or at least a portion of them. Any cursory glance at bitcoin's history bears this out.

Easy, yes. Wise, no.
 

Binky

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,046
4
81
Terrible advice. Bitcoins not in your sole and direct control are not your bitcoins. If you leave them with a third party, particularly on an internet facing server, expect to lose them, or at least a portion of them. Any cursory glance at bitcoin's history bears this out.

Easy, yes. Wise, no.
Yeah, at 57mh/s he's likely to build up a significant nest egg there. It would be terrible if that was lost.
 

Rezist

Senior member
Jun 20, 2009
726
0
71
So what GPU's are the most efficient for bitcoins now? Something like a 7770 for low power consumption/price or a 7970 just for the raw speed?
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
I think 7970 is most efficient, but given the upcoming ASIC mining devices I wouldn't recommend investing in GPU hardware for mining at this time.
 

Despoiler

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2007
1,968
773
136
I mine @ https://mtred.com/. It's a PPS pool, but it makes you wait for block confirmation before it will pay out your shares(like a prop pool). It has 0% fees. I kick them 1% by choice.

If you have dedicated rigs I would use https://eclipsemc.com/


I think 7970 is most efficient, but given the upcoming ASIC mining devices I wouldn't recommend investing in GPU hardware for mining at this time.

Mining hardware comparison.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
 
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Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
12,218
2
76
Im thinking about jumping back in for a bit, really regretting shutting down last fall. with prices where they are I missed out on building 2 new rigs for free :/
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
A 6950 can generate about 1.2 bitcoins per week at stock-ish speeds. Two every two days from two cards seems overly optimistic.

I think so too. A single overclocked 7970 is faster than 2 stock 6950s and it can't even do 1 BTC/day.

I mine on 2x6950s and I make about 1BTC every 2 days. They are mining pretty much 24/7.

That sounds way off, even before fees.

A single HD6970 (~390MH/sec) produces 6.39 BTC per month before any fees ==> 0.213 BTC per day. So it needs ~5 days to make 1 BTC. But that's also assuming 100% efficiency of the mining pool, which is never going to happen. That means 2x HD6970 would make 0.852 BTC every 2 days. Working backwards, HD6950s at 800mhz clocks would make around 20% less (1536 SPs @ 880mhz for the 6970 vs. 1408 SPs @ 800mhz for the 6950), about 325 Mhash/sec, or 0.71 BTC every 2 days.

An HD7970 at 1.1ghz does 11.14 BTC per month or 0.371 per day. So it needs 2.7 days to make 1 BTC (again before 0 transfer fees, pool fees, some inefficiency of the pool). The pool fees alone take this down to 0.343 for me at either Deepbit or BTCGuild. I found that the inefficiency at 0% fee pools such as Slush's pool is so much that it makes less in a month than either of the per-share pools despite their 5% fees.

So what GPU's are the most efficient for bitcoins now? Something like a 7770 for low power consumption/price or a 7970 just for the raw speed?

I think $310 MSI TwinFrozr HD7950 + manual overclock on stock voltage is the best card for price vs. performance vs. power consumption on the AMD side. At these prices it makes a lot more sense to get 2x HD7950s than a single $450 HD7970. You'll get a 65%+ increase in performance from two 1.1ghz 7950s over a single 1.1ghz HD7970 for $240. At the current rate a single 1.1ghz HD7950 would make 9.3 BTC per month or about 23 in 2.5 months. Later you could sell the 7950 and recoup most of the resale value but have the extra 23 BTC that it mined for you over a single 7970 (or you could keep mining and let it pay for itself, allowing you to have "free" 7950s!). It would take much much longer to break-even on $900 HD7970s.

I considered a Jalapeno, but decided against it given the sketchiness of the situation and BFL's track record. Again, in the next year and a half the number of BTC in circulation will only increase by 25%, and I would actually be surprised if BFL delivered ASICs by the end of October (or ever).

Can you please elaborate on Butterfly Labs' track record? Does their current Single deliver close to the advertised speeds of 832 Mhash/sec? Are you speaking about them not meeting launch timelines, or not delivering the promised performance? Did they fail to deliver before or something? I didn't really follow their products before. Just curious.
 
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blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
That sounds way off, even before fees.

A single HD6970 (~390MH/sec) produces 6.39 BTC per month before any fees ==> 0.213 BTC per day. So it needs ~5 days to make 1 BTC. But that's also assuming 100% efficiency of the mining pool, which is never going to happen. That means 2x HD6970 would make 0.852 BTC every 2 days. Working backwards, HD6950s at 800mhz clocks would make around 20% less (1536 SPs @ 880mhz for the 6970 vs. 1408 SPs @ 800mhz for the 6950), about 325 Mhash/sec, or 0.71 BTC every 2 days.

An HD7970 at 1.1ghz does 11.14 BTC per month or 0.371 per day. So it needs 2.7 days to make 1 BTC (again before 0 transfer fees, pool fees, some inefficiency of the pool). The pool fees alone take this down to 0.343 for me at either Deepbit or BTCGuild. I found that the inefficiency at 0% fee pools such as Slush's pool is so much that it makes less in a month than either of the per-share pools despite their 5% fees.

In reality you will get less revenue than that, and Lord knows the window of GPU mining is already coming to a close due to FPGA/ASIC and the difficulty doubling in Dec. 2012 (and no, price will not follow suit; 8+ million coins have already been mined, so mining barely impacts supply of coins, at 7200 coins mined/day (3600 coins mined/day come Christmastime); what really drives BTC prices is demand for BTC, not mining). You guys talking about mining = encourages more people mining = higher difficulty = lower payback for everybody. If you're already mining, stop talking about it. It should be like the First Rule of Fight Club or something.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
In reality you will get less revenue than that, and Lord knows the window of GPU mining is already coming to a close due to FPGA/ASIC and the difficulty doubling in Dec. 2012 (and no, price will not follow suit; 8+ million coins have already been mined, so mining barely impacts supply of coins; what really drives BTC prices is demand for BTC, not mining). You guys talking about mining = encourages more people mining = higher difficulty = lower payback for everybody. If you're already mining, stop talking about it. It should be like the First Rule of Fight Club or something.

Look who is back. We missed you buddy.

P.S. I took your advice on trying out the Sapphire Dual-X 7970. It's working great; no coil wine.
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,915
2,696
136
Can you please elaborate on Butterfly Labs' track record? Does their current Single deliver close to the advertised speeds of 832 Mhash/sec? Are you speaking about them not meeting launch timelines, or not delivering the promised performance? Did they fail to deliver before or something? I didn't really follow their products before. Just curious.

BFL announced the Single in October of 2011, with an claimed preorder price of $500 and claiming 1GH/s using 20W. Delivery was claimed to be 4-8 weeks. By the time they actually shipped it was March, the price was $599, the unit only generated 832MH/s while using 80W.

Even now they're claiming 4-6 weeks delivery and say that they've worked through their supply issues, but the evidence doesn't bear that out.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77796.0
The latest batch of shipments was received by customers who ordered over 2 months ago.

They're just an all around sketchy company, from missed stats and deadlines to initially claiming their Singles were a custom mix of ASIC and FPGA when they just used surplus previous gen Stratix FPGAs that they got a good deal on.
When confronted about it, they just said that people thinking it was ASIC should have been more careful.
Also on their FAQ page:
3. Is your system based on FPGA or ASIC technology?

The BitForce processor card is a proprietary implementation of both FPGA and ASIC technology.
BFL@bitcointalk said:
I really dislike being drawn into these discussions but in this case it's necessary to correct you. BF Labs has never gone on record claiming it's previous generation processors are pure ASIC. Never. Forum members simply came to their own conclusions based on our FAQ (which did not say it was pure ASIC, just left it ambiguous).

Just sketchy company altogether that doesn't seem to mind over-promising, using weasel language to confuse buyers and spread FUD, and takes full price preorders for products that are not finished development with no guarantees on a release date.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Even now they're claiming 4-6 weeks delivery and say that they've worked through their supply issues, but the evidence doesn't bear that out.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77796.0
The latest batch of shipments was received by customers who ordered over 2 months ago.

Thanks so much for that info/links! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

I was going to order the current Single but reading through that thread it looks like a 60-70 days waiting list:

PsychoticBoy: "Order date 12 April 2012. Recieved 13 July 2012"
wknight: "Order from 5/9 delivered today. 7/16
Morblias: "My order from 5/8 arrived yesterday 7/16"
LazyOtto: "Ordered: 5/14 Shipped: 7/19"
DavinciJ15: "My first order on 5/10/2012 received on 7/20/2012. 70 days! Wow eh? Still waiting for my order from 5/22/2012."

Hmm...2-2.5 months turnaround time is ridiculous. That likely means even if the units are ready to launch for October 2012, they may also need 2-2.5 months to ship out and then they would need to fulfill the waitlist for all the people who have pre-ordered them already. Sounds like GPU mining may have some life left in it until December 2012.
 
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